Is this CONFLICT AVOIDANCE?

I would like to see you PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN assertively with her to see what happens....

So running away is the answer to this...

FGG:

"If she comes over again, I'm going to stick my fingers in my ears and sing "I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy....""

Remember, you're in JAWJUH! It would be "inappropriate" 2 sing YDD there! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry for the humor, but it seems like you might need some right now.

I agree with everybody (ain't I a waffler? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). I can only tell you that, from my own experiences dealing with a FWW with a LTA (though not communicating anything like as much as yours does with her OM), that SOME OF THIS can be "accepted" as part of the territory at the beginning of recovery. Some of it. Not "contact at some later date", though.

Really, like MB says, NC is necessary before recovery can even start. Your WW may claim all kinds of realizations, but if she can't make that leap and sever that R, her epiphanies will be shams. Like my W's were... ...until now, I think.

-ol' 2long

I agree with not talking to her at all now.

You already told her a long time ago what you needed, and she isn't even close.

If she ever does say she is willing to give up OM for good, that wouldn't impress me either, but at this point, you could say "Good, I have been waiting for this. Call SH, and when you can prove to him that you mean it, he'll call me.

What you would need is proof, not words.

I still believe you should keep your sons informed as to what you are doing, and why.

It can be as simple as "I have spoken to your Mother at length about this in the past few weeks. As near as I can tell, nothing has changed at all, so I am proceding as we discussed."

I believe they need to hear it from you again as often as they hear things from her. You don't need to bad mouth her, or even quote her, but just reasure them.

Teach Jeb to sing with you, that ought to really get to her.

SS

Still:

I think Georgia needs to have that conversation as suggested by Gimble with her at least once during this process...

Then, he can begin singing Yankee Doodle...

Mimi, tell me what you have in mind.

I see her not giving up OM as being the whole problem, and the only thing TO DISCUSS. However, whenever he is discussed it turns out badly for Georgia, and she maintains the same stance.

You have been through recovery though, and you have in your mind all the things that are necesarry for that to happen, conversation, and communication being high on the list.

Be more vocal, explain the steps, and what has to happen. I would be interrested in hearing it - though I fear for Georgia's feelings. This has been hard on him, and false recovery, or anything that gave false hopes would not help him at all.

What are you thinking?

SS

Wow, you have asked for her to have NC with OM and counseling with the Harley's, and now in the eleventh hour she wants to give as little as possible, yet still have her home and 'things' (because after all it was the loss of her car that bothered her the most).

I would send a copy of the Plan B letter again with a copy going to her lawyer, your lawyer, with the date it was originally sent, and that you are sending it again on this date.


Geeze Louise, she wants to negotiate now? How addle-brained can she be? I'm sorry...no more contact with her. She is a desperate woman and will say or do ALMOST anythingto get her life back so she can continue doing what she was doing before...

GG,

I am sorry I have edited it out because I think it might be too harsh.

My prayers are with you in this time. May truth shin through the darkness, may your spirt not be crushed but molded into the path God has for you.

All I can say is that MB works. Plan B and exposure of affairs are there for a reason. If need be take this chance to get your wife to talk to Steve. With God all things are possible. But remember we all have free will and this includes your WW. I think she has made up her mind to have you and the OM but I pray for you and your family.

This is crap.
There are things that we have on our minds, that would be hurtful if spoken out loud to another person, so we need to keep our mouths shut! I learned that in kindergarten. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all!

Your WW can tell people that she "wanted to go to counseling" all she wants. People who know you will know the truth.

I know you all ready know this, but allow me to repeat it - it really doesn't matter what she says, or what anyone else thinks anyway. It is just between you and God, and he knows what you have endured.

Hang in there.

Hi, Georgia.

Quote:
=================================
My new bounday is that I just don't want to talk to her anymore right now about anything. All that happens is I just get sucked right back into this vortex of turmoil and have to deal with it all over again, with the end result being exactly the same.
=================================

Excellent boundary!

At least you are pushing back. That eradicates the doormat status and sets a simple precedent - "I will NOT tolerate this behavior from you toward me". The particular boundary you use to establish that is unimportant, doing it is.

God bless,
Gimble

Good Morning to all -

Mimi....you're being awfully tough on me. "Running away"? Is that what you REALLY think I'm doing? Or...is it that I've tried every angle there is to chisel into her mind, and anytime I manage to get in, I see more of the exact same? ie - the brief conversation that OMW and myself had which I am now told resulted in big problems in their marriage. Just for fun, here is what I wrote just under one year ago:




Now, the point I'm trying to make isn't to rehash the past, but to ask what has changed in the past year? Is there now some epiphany that indicates a new revelation on her part? I don't think so, it's just the same old stuff repackaged and sent right back out.

There is no doubt she is panicking.

Last night after the neighborhood association meeting I went to the grocery store. When I got home (about 9:30) she was there, sitting on the front porch swing. So, I went up and talked to her a few minutes (I realized 2Long was right, I couldn't sing YDD). She had brought me some pie (sound familiar?) and wanted to talk. I told her I was tired, hadn't had dinner, and didn't want to have a long conversation.

She told me she had sat up all night before writing a resume and cover letter and preparing to look for a job. She asked some questions about my list of things I've asked for from the house, and she told me that she thinks we should settle things without going back to court.

I dunno, perhaps you're right, Mimi. (Don't you hate it when I argue with myself?). Maybe I am running away.

She asked last night why I wasn't willing to work on the marriage. I told her that I was really burned out on the whole thing and I have a peaceful life now. She told me that I seemed to be better at communicating now and she thought we could work it out. I asked her what would happen if she decided my communication skills weren't up to par? She said that there wouldn't be anyone else (remember last week....OM#3 waiting if I don't measure up?).

This conversation lasted maybe 10 minutes, then I asked her to leave (which she did).

I believe that right now, anything I said she would agree with. However, I don't think a thing has changed except for her panic in knowing that her whole world is crashing down on top of her. Maybe I do suddenly look not quite so bad to her....but is it because I am "Mr. ATM"?

I know I'm rambling. This is a very, very hard place to find myself in. I feel so very sorry for her. She looked at me last night and said "Georiga, I'm not going to have any insurance". It drives a dagger through my heart to see her this way.

I'm continuing on with life in other areas.

Sunday afternoon I visited Mrs. Reese. She has totally lost her hearing, but her mind seems as sharp as ever. I wrote her notes and she responded. She wants to be home so badly.

Last night's neighborhood meeting was wonderful. These "simple" people are so loving and genuine, us "middle-classers" could learn much from them. We're having a neighborhood cook-out on Oct.1 at the big park nearby. Free hot dogs / hamburgers. Games for the kids with prizes, etc. I've volunteered to cook and donate the hot dogs). These folks are wonderful.

Anyway....I need to spend some time putting some square pegs in round holes....

GOOD MORNING, MIMI.....

Georgia

It appears the consequences of your WW's actions are finally spanking her. She is heading for the bottom and she doesn't like the look of it, and is trying to scramble up before she reaches it.

NOT having insurance was something that didn't bother her when she had the OM looking after her and 'meeting her EN'.

When WH and I filled out our EN questionnaire, I realized how much my EN's would change over time. It was not so much a measurement of what my most important EN's were, but a measurement of which of my most important EN's that weren't getting met.

Your WW is realizing what an important EN you were meeting in financial security. One that she hadn't HAD to worry about before, just assumed it was taken care of. It IS an important need for her, and you have realized this. You have said many times, "Let the OM support her." So now she will lose this.

So she is looking at the bottom, but not quite there. SHe is learning what her spoiled life, and taking people for granted is achieving in her life. She is about to get a HUGE clueX4. She sees it coming, and she wants to stop it. But I don't see her as a quick learner, she doesn't GET it just by seeing it coming, I'm afraid she will have to have the full brunt of the blow before she begins to see the light (and not just stars). You see this, you know this.

She WILL learn and be remosrseful...maybe tomorrow, maybe 10 years from now, but it will happen.

What would need to happen before you would entertain the idea of reconciliation?

Oh, Georgia:

I almost wish I could feel differently about this so that I can say to you "Go about your merry way". However, I look at my H who is miraculously even a better H than he was before and I think.."With God all things are possible..."

It has taken a FULL TWO YEARS for us to get to this point. Early on, when my H was talking reconciliation and even during the first days of our R, he looked and sounded like your WW. I continue to see her as being deep IN THE FOG. The question is: " Are YOU finished with her and ready to move on?"


I'm sorry. Especially right after exposure, my H looked and acted as "nuts" as your WW does now. He hated me, blamed everything on me... Our marriage was bad for many years. There are two important differences. My H did not have more than one A. However, I'm not too sure if there was not another A. There could have been. We were detached and distant from each other. He came home late and was out of place a lot....

The second big difference is that I did not have an opportunity to create a new life like you have during your PLAN B. Your new life, without her, "sounds" wonderful...

You know me, Georgia. I moreso share the viewpoint of FOREVER HERS .. God brought you together, God wants you to be married, that Satan is driving you apart, that Satan smiles at the idea of your D. That is my strong belief system....That's what I keep feeling about your situation... That's what I keep hearing...

The worldly part of me understands your desire to D, to flee from this trauma. The Christian part of me wants you to help her. You are her H. She needs you. You are as one. This is to say, as a mortal with frailties, I understand your reactions to this. However, in seeking the supernaturalness of BOLD LOVE, I will tell you that I don't think it's the RIGHT thing. A lot of people here will disagree with me, I know. However, this is what I am feeling and am feeling led to tell you. I hear her asking for your help.

My thought is that when you engage in long conversations with your WW, you enable the fog talk. It seems that tougnness is needed with her, the use of your personal power to help her with this, to put a stop to this, to put your foot down with her...

You said:



So whose not wanting to work on the M?

I'm sorry. I see the need for continued very tough, very painful conversations with her IF YOU CHOOSE TO PROCEED.

BTW, FINANCIAL SUPPORT is a HUGE EMOTIONAL NEED OF MINE that my H is willing and able to meet... What is WRONG with that?

Later....

Mimi....

You and SHMI both ask very tough questions.

You say the question is "Am I done with her"? I want to stand up and say, Yep...I've had it, I'm done, and I did all I could do. But...

You know that deep down I, too, share the views of both yourself and FOREVER. But, how do we parse out our weak emotions, Biblical beliefs, manipulation by out WS's, etc? Where is the truth?

I was warned that she would exploit my emotions and attack my weak spots (knowing where they all are). Is that not where we are right now? My IC says that is the case, he says she is playing on my emotions. Is he right?

Perhaps this is where our human love differs from agape love. If I didn't have those human frailties you speak of, perhaps I could continue infinitely, and perhaps I am running away. Life is peaceful now. Pottery tonight, work on my deck this afternoon, mission trip this weekend.

The thought of jumping back into the ring with her scares me to death.

Georgia

But she is YOUR WIFE...

What does that mean to you as a CHRISTIAN HUSBAND?

Is you counselor a CHRISTIAN?

And is if she is PLAYING ON YOUR EMOTIONS? What is the appropriate response? Run away or deal with it? Call her on it? Get down and dirty?

FGG,

I think SS said back a few days ago that any path back to you goes through SH, and only SH.

If there's any part of you that thinks she is sincere - your job is easy - she needs to start with SH.

What he requires of WSs is friendly but grueling...He'll be able to sort sincereity vs manipulation; it's really not possible for you to.

It's probably not my place to say this, but I suspect it's manipulation, because you're finally letting her feel the consequences of her actions. She has tried to cheat the system for many years by allowing/encouraging more than one man to meet her ENs.

SH has heard/seen it all before. My bet is that he'll see through her, or see her sincerity before too long.

So to me, it's simple - the road to you is through SH, and BTW she pays for the appts too.

The benefit to you regarless of her decision to talk with SH or not is simply more peace of mind.

Edited to add - you know what really bugs?... is that she says she's willing to try to work on your marriage because YOU have learned how to communicate better. This is a bad sign...a really bad sign. I don't think she gets any of this, except the loss of Mr. ATM.

I think we are being particularly critical of your WW, Georgia. I think it's because you are such a nice guy and we have grown to love and respect you. However, I can't help to believe that there is two parts to every story. I think there's a part that you played in this that you need to understand.

CSUE said:



I just don't see her as different from many other WSes...

There may be more conversations needed before she talks to Steve. I think counseling with Steve is an excellent idea and request...

I still am having problems with this Mr. ATM... Maybe being defensive here. My H gladly meets my strong EN for Financial Support.. A husband is supposed to be the provider.. I still say..I understand this...certainly she is fearful of this loss after being a SAHM FOR MOST OF HER LIFE..this is a need that you meet that the OM does not...

TELECONFERENCE, STAND BY.

GG,

Next time she shows up, ask her if she's serious about marriage counseling - has she called Steve? If not, "You're not serious about rebuilding this marriage then - Steve is the ONLY marriage counselor who can save our marriage; have him call me after you talk with him." Then leave.

"Oh, remember the short conversation that I had with OMW when we were in Vancouver? I told her that I didn’t think it would be wise for them to move here to Georgia, and I told her that I thought her H and my W were way too emotionally attached to one another. Well, WW told me when I talked to her Thursday that I had a caused a lot of problems in OM / OMW’s marriage with what I had said. I told her I thought the problems were related to OM spending time with someone else’s wife (mine) rather than attending to the needs of his own wife. She told me that was not the case at all, that I had caused their problems with my conversation."

Shocked, I'm shocked I tell you, that a wife would cause her husband problems because he spent too much time focussed on another man's wife!

And shocked that a husband would tell the wife of the OM that their spouses were too emotionally involved ... to the detriment of their marriage.

FGG, how could you, it's all your fault .....