Good idea, Kayla.

Hi, Georgia.

Quote:
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I was warned that she would exploit my emotions and attack my weak spots (knowing where they all are). Is that not where we are right now? My IC says that is the case, he says she is playing on my emotions. Is he right?
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Yes, I believe he is right.

Look at it this way. If you divorce, there is no reason that you can't still work things out a year or two from now. People remarry all the time. I do feel that there is one certainty here. If she doesn't hit bottom, and with the help of the Lord, PULL HERSELF back up, she will never learn the character she needs to successfully conclude her stay on the planet.

Please consider letting her skin her knees and bust her butt falling off the bicycle. It is a serious disservice to continue to rescue her at every bobble.

I am sorry for your hard situation, Georgia. I do know that some peace in a person's life is necessary for mental health.

God bless,
Gimble

Mimi....I wholeheartedly agree that we all put our best foot forward. Thank you for the kind comments, and I don't in any way disagree that I had some role to play in this as well. But...it is one thing to admit have you have faults that may have been a contributor, it is entirely another to hear "this is all your fault!".

However, has my role been so significant that a change of the error of my ways is ALL that is needed to resolve this issue? (Rhetorical). I think that Gimble's sig line is particularly instructive at this point:

An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.

She FEELS entitled, she RESENTS me in many ways, and she has shown absolutely no RESPECT for me or my feelings.

What this all means to me is that I can there be, is it even possible, that an 11th hour, "jail-house" conversion...has any kind of real consequences?

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to justify my actions, but I remember having to deal with her and #1OM with #1S was still in High School, he is 25 y.o. now.

And...I am STILL (in her eyes) "at fault" for the #1OM debacle. She is STILL angry at our associate pastor for telling her that she "needs to get over #1OM and take care of her family".

Okay, maybe I am rationalizing.

I'm going to lunch.

I appreciate you all not just cheering me on to the divorce court. You (esp the Goddess) know how much I seek affirmation. If I go forward with this divorce, it is going to be the most thouroughly evaluated decision of my life.

Georgia

And like SH said so long ago, your WW needs a reboot to her operating system.

Her sense of entitlement, her blame for EVERYTHING wrong in her life cast at other people, her VERY skewed sense of what is right and wrong. She has been telling herself for Sooo long that what she is doing is right and what EVERYONE else is telling her is wrong has been going on for so long that she is going to need a dunk in some VERY cold water to wake up from this train of thought.

She is not even CLOSE to being there. If you take her back too soon, and without the change in attitude she needs for a non-narcissistic M, then you are headed for the same trouble.

BUT, she is trying, she has taken the first step...in wanting to change...now to see if she is willing to make continued steps.

I agree with Kayla and other posters (again) the way back to FGG's heart is through SH.

StillHere:

I don't see how this is different than other WSes....

Gimble:

You said people get remarried all the time...

Does that make it OK or a GOOD thing ?

I think that's a sad state of affairs that is happening...

I'm glad for her that she is trying...

So Georgia:

What is YOUR ROLE?

Is this all HER FAULT?

We are saying that she is entitled in thinking that it is all YOUR FAULT....

FGG and Mimi,

I have watched the interchange between you two and it sort of tears me apart. Why? Because I agree with everything Mimi is saying. I believe that people can come back from the abyss and turn their life around. I believe that FGG loves his W and ALWAYS will. I HOPE for the sudden change in FGG's W that will make her a compassionate human being.

I have seen people on this very forum turn around and even turnaround AFTER a divorce and rebuild the marriage.

BUT, in ALL of those cases the WS that turned around came to understand what they had done. Came to believe that their spouse was truely the ONLY one for them. Came to see their role in the marriage.

FGG's W has not done a single thing like that. She has as recently as last week told him that OM #3 is on the horizon if he does NOT shape up (does that mean that he needs to allow her to have OM #2 in her life). I have not heard ANY indication of remorse for 5 years of affairs, just a threat of more to come if FGG does NOT meet her needs. I have heard nothing from FGG that indicates she loves him, just needs him to pay the insurance and the house payments.

I have heard nothing that indicates that she has done anything but tear him down to their children, certainly nothing complimentary. I have heard nothing that indicates that she gets it.

I am of the opinion that she is unlikely to get it until she is divorced just as Hopeful_Person did. I am of the opinion that 5 years of this will erode the love that FGG has for her. I am of the opinion that FGG likes people, enjoys entertaining, likes to help people and his W does not like any of these things.

I see NOTHING in this marriage worth saving, and I have been her for well over 6 years. I have NEVER said anything like this before and I hope I never do again. I also hope as does Mimi that a miracle occurs and somehow FGG's W finally gets it. I just don't see any reason for the current course of events to be stopped. I am truely saddened to say this, but it seems to me "these are the facts that prevail." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

Just Learning:

I just don't see her like you do...for some reason.

I think there's something that she's trying to say that we need to listen to...

However, Georgia, of course, knows her better than we do..

Good question, Just Learning:

I would like to ask her why she feels that she needs more than one man?

What would it take for Georgia to be her ONLY MAN FOR A LIFETIME?

I wonder if she shared this thought with Steve...

I wonder what Steve would tell Georgia...

Mimi,

You are probably right we don't see her the same. Might be a gender thing I don't know. I do see her as "sick" woman. I can envision her years from now living in a house with 100's of cats. I have seen this before in people I know and frankly ONLY THE MOST SKILLED sort of counseling has a chance of helping and FGG is NOT that counselor.

I may be completely wrong and you may be completely right. Frankly I am betting I am right but HOPING that you are right. I don't see any hope for this until she gets some serious help with her issues whatever they may be. But for that to happen she would have to recognize that her behavior has been off the wall NO MATTER WHAT SHE THOUGHT OF FGG. I don't see that coming until much later if ever.

But, you know Mimi I do hope you are right because in the long run FGG and his W would be much happier. I think if his W does not respond in some positive manner, FGG will find someone else in his life and it will be very enjoyable to both. But, it will never have the history, the off-spring of this marriage. That is a sad fact.

I have no worries that FGG will do well once the divorce is done. I also have no worries that he will always wonder "what if" about his W. But, I think whatever her issues are they are beyond his ability to address them. One reason is her anger, the second is her sense of entitlement (which she has had all of their marriage apparently), and third there is something she needs that he does not understand and she cannot express.

The woman has problems and until SHE addresses them I consider this a done deal, DOA.

But, Mimi I keep hoping you are right. Your heart is definitely in the right place and I think so if FGG's.

God Bless,

JL

Wow....what a discourse.

Mimi, you ask me a question that I'm going to have to answer with candor and you can 2X4 me if you wish. I certainly don't think I am without blame. However, even at this stage of the game, I don't know what I would / could do to more satisfy her UNLESS it would be to quit work and stay at home with her 24 / 7 to always be there for her every moment of every day.

With the very first local IC that I saw (maybe 6 years ago), she suggested that WW might be "bored" with her life and need something to look forward to. At her request, I used to plan activities for us (she and I) about 3 months in advance, print these on a calendar, and hang it on the fridge. Then, I would periodically look at it and "remind" her of the things we had coming up.

Of course, you and I began with the "James Dean" thing.

I do sometimes believe that she has a deep craving for some type of intimate conversation that is just foreign to me. I am (at least in my eyes) open, honest, and attentive to conversations with her. However, it's like it's never enough. Is it possible that I just CAN'T give what it is she's looking for? I dunno. She tells me that she had what she wanted with her OBF (before we married), but she was afraid he wouldn't ask her to marry, so she accepted my proposal to get away from home.

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I still hold to the idea that her major problems are not marital at all, they are personal and individual. I cannot, and never will be able to, meet ALL (and I do mean ALL) of her needs. And...that is what I think she wants. When I fail (to meet ALL needs), she looks in inappropriate places.

But...she and I have had this conversation over and over and over again.

She doesn't like women, doesn't trust them. Prefers men....it's because (in her opinion) she had a brother and did not have a good R with her mother. (I've heard that one again in the last week).

I don't even know why I'm saying all these things. I guess I fear that if I say "okay, one more time...here we go", then it's nothing but a trip right back to h*ll as soon as she discovers I STILL can't meet all of her needs.

Make sense?

Hi, Mimi.

Quote:
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Gimble:

You said people get remarried all the time...

Does that make it OK or a GOOD thing ?
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It just is.

Whether or not it is good or bad, depends solely on the people involved and the circumstances that lead to the action.

No person knows the future here. You do the best you can based on the facts at hand. Anything beyond that is speculation. I am selling most of my Apple stock today. I think that it has peaked. I could be wrong, and miss out on making a bunch more money, but it is my choice and risk.

Georgia has done the best he can do with what he has to work with. His stock hasn't payed out the way he planned or hoped. With the information at hand, much of it based on past performance, he is selling off the stock. If the stock should show serious growth potential in the future, then maybe he will buy back in, that is if he is not already heavily invested somewhere else.

Gimble

FGG,

I have kept up with your post, but never responded as you were given such excellent advice all around. I am a fellow Georgian, too.

I can understand Mimi taking a stand for your WS, and I do admire her for it. However, I will agree with the majority opinion here, that your WS shows no signs of remorse, have not said she would safeguard you and the marriage by not indulging in the same behaviors that has landed you in this mess in the first place.

Mimi is right, most FWS were very reluctant at first, but most adhered to NC, allowing access to phone records, accountable for their time etc.

I let my FWH come back, he never lost his sense of entitlement. He never took responsibility for the A, it was my fault, I was not meeting his needs, so he had to go elsewhere. My FWH came back from a sense of duty, he realized how much money he would have to pay me in child support etc. So, he did not want his ATM to run dry. Lots of reasons for coming back, but not necessarily the right reasons.

Three years later, could be sooner than that, he felt justified to contact the OW again. I was doubly devastated. How could he do this again, knowing the ramifications of his actions? I asked this over and over again.

What I realized was, he really did not understand or empathize with my pain and trauma the first time around. It was all about him, first, last and always. I was a supporting person in his drama.

The second time around, I was ready to file for divorce. He moved out, I found a lawyer. I confronted him, told him I wanted a divorce. Then his world shattered, I was not doing a Plan A, Plan B, just went to Plan D. I was done, I could not live with this unhealthy person anymore.

Then he finally felt the ramifications for his actions. He finally understood the pain of being unwanted, he lost weight dramatically, could not eat, sleep. He went into withdrawal for ME. What a wake up call to him.

I could sympathize with him, I knew all about the sleepless nights, the obsessive thoughts. He would come by my job, wait for hours for me to come out. I was finally the most important person in his life.

What I am saying, is that I let my WS off the hook to easily. I was desperate to have him back, and I allowed myself to justify my actions.

Even though you WS is showing some signs of discomfort due to your imminent divorce, it is not enough. She has not shown you that you are important to her. That you mean more to her than any other. Do no let down your guard FGG, I believe you are doing the right thing. I agree with Kayla and JL, insist on your WS counseling with SH, if she is in any way receptive to genuinely saving this marriage.

NOMO

Mimi - I am curious about those first few days when your WH came back. I know you have said that he was just as mean, and just as foggy as any other WS on here, but when he first came back, couldn't you see a change in him? Didn't he show some little glimmer of remorse, or a glimmer of the man he once was? It just seems like your FWH showed some signs that he was ready for recovery - and I have to agree with the other posters here who say that FGG's WW is only showing signs of remorse over the loss of her house, and her insurance. Not the loss of her Husband. These are things that she should have thought of a year ago! Most of us, at some point in our life, are "tempted" by someone else. Someone of the opposite sex smiles at us, compliments us, and we start thinking "hey, this person likes me!". But most of us then turn to logical thinking - "If I allow myself to fantsize about this person, and a life with them, that means I would have to move from this house, I would not see my children every day, I may have to get a new job....etc...and we realize that we need to run from taht fantasy, and the relationship never even becomes an EA.
In this case, his WW did not think about what the consequnces would be - she figured she would have none. Heck, she wanted OM to move in with FGG! Plan B was perfect in this case - the chance for her to really see what life would be like. She still did not wake up!
Now, finally, reality has hit.
I don't like the way she still says "I realize now you never met my EN". She isn't saying "I realize now how vulnerable I was, and how I let myself succumb to temptation. I pray God will forgive me and give me the strength to go forward, and be the wife you deserve.
She is still sitting on her entitlement throne.

Mimi, I am so glad you are posting here. You are giving a lot of great adivce, so please don't think that I am argueing against you - I am struggling to figure out why GG's wife is so crazy! I'm sorry, I can't describe it any other way.

That garbage about how her other BF truly met her needs but she was afraid her wouldn't marry her - so, how good of a relationship was that exactly? The man wasn't even able to make a commitment to her. That is not true love! She is still pining over a fantasy. I'll bet that if you found that man you find a string of broken realtionships behind him.

I know that GG's wife is hurting now, and we all have sympathy for that. But it has been 5-6 years of pain for GG, and NOW, with the loss of her home, and her health insurance she shows some sign of remorse? She spends 1 night finally getting her resume together, and brings him pie? Huh??
I fully beleive that God can bring healing. No doubt. But I think the first step needs to be something like"GG, I am sorry for the pain I caused you. period." no more excuses - no more "if only you had been a better H".

Mimi, please keep posting. You keep everyone looking at all the angles here.

I still stand by my statement the other day - she needs to get right with God, and I don't think she is there.If she was there, she would not be able to justify her own actions in her mind. She would be so full of remorse, for the pain she has caused her H, and OM's W! If she were truly seeking repentance, she would not be able to sit there and justify that stuff any longer.

Georgia/JL/WOF/others:

I've been busy at work for a change <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and haven't had chance to post about my wondering about leaving MB yesterday...

I'm not going anywhere for now...

Will be back later to post to you all and Georgia..

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Whew...I'm glad we're not losing the Goddess!!

Here is a paradox that I can't help but noticing is ALMOST universal, and certainly applies in my case as well. Maybe old news to you vets, so bear with me.

In the beginning, a spouse becomes a WS and enjoys immensely the forbidden fruits. The excitement, the attention, possibly the intimacy, whaever..but the WS revels in this new found "freedom".

(Much like Adam & Eve in their R with God).

The BS writhes in pain and turmoil. The hurt is almost unbearable...how can life go on? Nothing else matters any more, the BS's thoughts are consumed by the anguish.

But....then somethings happens.

The BS somehow (like Plan B or some form thereof) regains the high road.

And...the WS finds the forbidden fruit has begun to spoil and stink.

Then somehow, like magic, all that pain and turmoil starts transferring over to the WS. And...the BS begins to find some calm and peace in the midst of the storm.

Then, it's almost like the roles have been swapped. The BS is the one who is content and happy, the WS is in undeniable turmoil and suffering.

Much like the story of Mr.& Mrs. FGG.

Ok, I know my last post was all ready too long, but I meant to address this as well. I think this is one of the biggest red flags from your M. If she never had woman friends during the whole marriage, and said she never trusted them, this is a red flag.

Some women are not trustworthy, as well as some men. To say that all women are not trustworthy is not right. There was a time when I had few women firends. I think it happens to all of us. We are caught up in our H's,and childens lives, and think we don't need any other R's. But it is our same sex friendships, with our peers, that provides our accountability. When I am visiting with other christian women, listening, talking, sharing, that is where I gain information on how to be a good mom, wife, and firend.

The more I think about it - this is a hge red flag.

Your WW did not like to have friends over to visit. She did not have fmaled firends to sit and have coffee with. This is a sign that she was hiding somehting in her life, and the only way to hide it or make it appear "normal" in her own mind, was by avoiding people who would call her out on it.

A friend of mine once told me that sick people do not like to hang out with "normal" people, becuase it shows them how sick they are. This guy was a former drug addict and alchoholic. When he was involved in drugs he did not like being around people who were not, becuase it made him feel uncomfortable. But when he was with other addicts, he was able to say "there is nothing wrong with this - look every one else is doing it".

In your WW's case, if she had female friends that she talked to on a regular basis she would not have been comfortable talking about her R with OM#1 or #2. Just being in the presence of another married woman, knowing that she had a secret that she should not or could not share, would have made her feel uncomfortable.

I am not saying that she purposely avoided women so that she could have an A. I am saying that her lack of female relationships helped contribute to an environment that allowed it to continue far longer than it should.

Just because she had only had a brother, and not close to her mother, is no reason to avoid other females. Something else was going on inside her mind long before the first OM.

To me, this issue points to the fact that whatever is going on her mind did not just start recently. It goes back to the point in her life where she quit having relationships with other women.

WOF -

Yes, it is a red flag. I so WISH she would have had female friends, and I tried to GENTLY encourage that, but to no avail. Truth is...I would have enjoyed having a night to myself sometimes while she was out with the "girls".

But...she is insistent that her dislike of women is all due to her and her M's relationship. And...as she and her B have gotten along so well, she looks to other men to be her substitute brother since he can't be here with her. This is TRUTH as related by WW. If you disagree, then you are WRONG!!!

BTW - My desk phone rang a moment ago. I answered, it was her. She was at a new dr's office (gyn) and filling out paperwork. She asked if it was okay if she put me down as the next of kin. I said sure.

SIGH...

Is the whole world crazy, or is it just me?

Georgia

She has pulled you out of Plan B...

I liked your analogy

"Then somehow, like magic, all that pain and turmoil starts transferring over to the WS. And...the BS begins to find some calm and peace in the midst of the storm."

But I think the pain is only just starting for her...

You have found peace (until recently) and she has chosen to ignore the pain.

The next time she calls...don't answer...she is convincing herself she can 'get you back' and on her terms...all she needs to do is persuade you with phone calls, visits, etc.

That phone call was a HUGE step for her...she knows you still want to be M...

Here is the thirty million dollar question. When there is a WS who is certain that they are right, and anyone who questions them is wrong, how does anyone get them to the point where they are willing to aknowledge the possibility that they should listen to the possibilty that they may need to change their thinking?

In my case I remember reaching the point where I realized that my WxH was so convinced that he was right and everyone else was wrong that he wasn't going to listen to anyone. Many, many people told him that he had a good M, and if we had troubles, they could be worked out. He had a w who was trying to work things out, willing to accept responsbility for the state of the relationship, and he should come half way. But he dug in his heels and anyone who tried to get him to listen to another way of looking at it was wrong. In his opinion, the problem with our M was just that we were not exactly alike, and the only way to have a good marriage was to find a partner who was exactly like you. He actaully told me that marriage should never be any work, it should always be easy. If you reach a point where it involves work, that means you were not meant to be together. I said "everyone you talk to, any book you read, and show on TV will tell you that marriage is a lot of work, why don't you believe that?" His only response was "thats just wrong".
Huh? He could hear that from 100 people, and yet they are all wrong? How do you reason with someone like that?

I only ponder all of this, becuase I think it is important to look at these red flags so that we do not ignore them in future relationships.