Right, so you want to put a man who puts OW before his own children in charge of the household? "Being sure" is not being capable!!

Rest assured, he has only false assurances! He is sooo in fantasy land.



That sounds like really typciall WS jibberish to me. They ALL feel that way--totally accepted, sould mate--that's the romance talking. OF COURSE she totally accepts him, she has never had to live with him, confront mutual problems or just survive the mundane day-to-day life stuff with him. This dream will be shattered if he moves out to be with her.


He sounds stubborn, but very typical Luna.

If he wants to talk a separation date, tell him:

Ta famille n'est pas un prison. Nous avons besoin de toi, nous t'aimons, mais nous ne voulons pas te renfermer a cle. La porte est ouverte.

Make sure that you make it clear that he is leaving the FAMILY UNIT, not just your couple. DO NOT sit the boys down and somehow present this as a decision you have reached. If he wants to go, he has to face the FAMILY and tell him he is leaving.

He has to pack his own bags, prepare his own stuff and leave on his own. He is seeking your advice to make it okay. DON"T FALL FOR IT!

Luna, you want to get away from everyone, but don't do it. Someone has to stand up and represent the family and your M. Make him pack his own bags and leave you and the kids. If he goes and you have a breakdown, then send the kids to a relatives. Don't let him just kick you out and then play house with OW while your gone (and don't fool yourself into thinking he won't do it!!! He has already justified his actions in his own mind, he will find a way to justify developing the relationship between OW and your boys).

Have you told his mother? Other family members?

Would you consider taking him and getting away for a week? (I wish my BS had kidnapped me!)

Upate.

Thanks for your comments, Ahuman.

We have kept discussing on and off our perspective on the situation. WH has his position - should be able to leave M if he wanted out - and I hold on to mine - waiting for H/partner to be back.

Something new for me to live through. I never really knew when WH and OW met, but know that they did.

Well, WH supposedly was working tonight. Right, supposedly. He had told me he would not be reachable at work, taking 'patients' out. Well, I just thought I try to reach him before he left for the outing. Guess what. WH was not scheduled to work tonight. So, guess what, in PLAN A you expect WH and OW to meet, and this is the first time I am here at home knowing with certainly that he is somewhere else enjoying himself with the OW.

A new low!

This is all slowly but surely wearing me out. You are the only once that understand why I want to keep holding on. Even my friends now wonder why am I still holding on. They all think it best that I let go - and separate.

Hello today Luna.

How did it go last night when he came home?

I know I keep giving you a whole bunch of comments. Maybe I talk too much....it's true I am a bit bavarde!

But, I came accrossed a comment from bOb pure to Leftandlost and I thought you would find it helpful, when you sometimes feel blindsided and panicked...

Leftandlost was feeling really panicked (very common I imagine in this situation). Anway, here is what bOb says:



Panic is normal. How you HANDLE the panic and chanel it into COURAGE is another matter...

Don't worry about what your friends think you should do...they don't have to live your life. And they probably don't have the experience with infidelity (at least I hope not) as the wonderful people on this board.

Anway, I hope you are finding your own courage today.

Thanks Ahuman,

I see you're keeping a close watch on me. I appreciate it.

quote:----------------------------------------------------
How did it go last night when he came home?
---------------------------------------------------------

Well, when WH came home, based on what he said, I think I may have jumped the gun about him not being at work/or working. I guess in these situations you always think the worst. WH's story checked out - very very plausible. My intuition this time said I was wrong compared to other times. Somehow he felt 'down' and usually after seeing OW WH is upbeat. I checked his cell history and he hasn't called her from it since last Wednesday (at least from cell phone).

I wonder how bad of a LB this is. I think WH is seeing me as an "obstacle" to his happiness. An "obstacle" to surpass. The situation is making us adversaries whereas before we've always been together for a common goal.

It does make me doubt about where I am putting my energies. Should I just 'let go'? WH is saying it's what he wants. It's a tough battle to fight all alone. WH doesn't care about the M; he feels it's over; it's just a matter of how we are going to function with the kids et al. Even if it's temporary, why should he CHOOSE to let go of his R with OW when it brings him feelings of being on top of the world, choose to live a DEPRESSSION instead brought on by withdrawl, to work on a M that he sees as 'dead' right now. I guess WS can be very convincing when they want what they want at all cost. If he can't imagine the possibility of one day our M being at a better place, WH will not have what it takes to choose withdrawal, etc. etc. Right now WS cannot visualize our M being better so it can't be a motivator. His motivator is projecting himself with OW and it drives all of his actions right now.

If you sense that I am considering giving up, you are right. I am questioning my actions, objectives, efforts. It feels like trying to "go upstream", against the grain. Should I let go and go with the 'flow of life' rather than resist? I know, this is WS talk, and at times I do wonder if he might not be right about it.

I watched Oprah's show on cheating husbands. I thought there were only one or two in the group that might have a chance at working it out. But for most, I really thought to myself: why are the wives tolerating WH's behaviour when it is obvious they intend to be repeaters? Why don't they move on with life? They deserve better.

At this point, I wonder what our M would be like on the other side, if ever we were to get past all this pain we are both experiencing. It feels it would be a "pale" image of what we had before.

I need to imagine that M, if ever WH chooses to get past this crisis with me, and work with me on it, that it will be better, otherwise right now it is hard for me to muster up all the energy, effort, etc. it takes for me to want to stay in M. I guess at this point, some of you are saying that I may not be putting my energy where I should if I really wanted to give my M a shot.

I need to consider drafting a PLAN B letter - although right now I don't know if I have what it takes to go through with it. I do care about my M, but I doubt right now if I have the guts, the courage to do what it takes. If I don't, I will have to accept that I may not have done the most that could have been done, just what I was able to do and forgive myself for maybe not being able to do all that I could have done.


You're right Ahuman. BOB's comments make sense.

quote:---------------------------------------------------
Panic is normal. How you HANDLE the panic and chanel it into COURAGE is another matter...
---------------------------------------------------------

I am not so sure what my thinking pattern will have to be to do this. I guess like Bob says: "treating it as a project" and keeping in mind that that momemt is a small piece of the puzzle only, and not the total puzzle.

quote:--------------------------------------------------
Don't worry about what your friends think you should do...they don't have to live your life. And they probably don't have the experience with infidelity (at least I hope not) as the wonderful people on this board.
---------------------------------------------------------

You are right, but before it was a source of support. Now, I hear them asking themselves: "why does she not let go?".

And so, the board right now is only place I feel people understand why I may not want to let go. I may have to, but I don't want to.

I can see WH wanting only to 'escape' the situation. I can see him getting impatient, itching to do a move. So, the tension is there.

I would probably not ask him to leave, but would like to have a PLAN B letter ready to use, if I want to, should he announce that he's moving out.

To answer a question asked a few postings ago: No, WH has always come home every night, and if he is seeing OW outside of work setting, he would have had to lie about it. But I don't know that. All I check right now is cell phone contacts made, and when possible, I call him at "work" as I would usually do and so far, except for last night when the work was outside the office, he's where he says he is. Don't check on: "went for a beer with so and so" (not OW) because they are co-workers and I don't know them well enough to want to call them up and confirm WH's story.

Anyway, I find the whole thing so so sad.

It does help to write here though. Every little bit helps.

I also want to acknowledge and thank, to name a few, confused 42, Pepperband, Mulan, particularly for your recent postings. Sometimes I wondered if people were 'reading' me. I answer sometimes specific questions, but want you to all know that I feel "you" all being out there more than I did before. Whenever you have comments, I appreciate your taking the time to write them to me. I suspect that there are some of you that are only reading me, because you have taken the time to tell me what you thought I should be doing - whether I do it or not, you are leaving it up to me - as it should be.

As you all know and understand and have lived or are living through it, this is one of the toughtest situations life has to offer. At some level, it definitely would be easier to let go. But my family does mean a lot to me, even though at the same I do feel so unequipped and so unprepared to handle the situation in a way to give it the best shot at surviving.

Update.

Decided to speak to Steve Harley. Set appointment for tomorrow.

Everytime I think I've hit my limit, I am being asked for more. I thought the whole situation was unbearable before, but compared to now, it doesn't compare.

I now wonder: is this how one slowly hits a 'nervous breakdown'? I really hope I can take the heat, one breath at a time.

There seems to always me more to have to 'deal with'. It was helpful that at least at work, it was not demanding. My boss is now ill and things are turning for the worst at work as well. I am feeling the stress in my shoulders, like a big weight, and don't know if I have what it takes. I know that deep down I consider myself a survivor, but this is ridiculous. The quicksand is too much to take for too long.

I find my strength in knowing that the 'comfort' of my two kids are at stake depending on how well I manage things.

But right now my whole life feels unbearable!

If ever I could take a vacation from my life, this would be it.

I read the thread on "escaping" reality. It really hit home. Oh, how I wish.....

WH is also being overloaded workwise.

This is definitely not the best time of my life - I am just barely holding on.

***Well, WH supposedly was working tonight. Right, supposedly. He had told me he would not be reachable at work, taking 'patients' out.***

If you haven't already, you might take at look at my recent thread titled "The Disappearing Act."

***I find my strength in knowing that the 'comfort' of my two kids are at stake depending on how well I manage things.***

***But right now my whole life feels unbearable!***

***If ever I could take a vacation from my life, this would be it.***

***I read the thread on "escaping" reality. It really hit home. Oh, how I wish.....***

Plan B will do all of these things for you. Please don't wait too long.
Mulan

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> hip-hip-horrayyyyyyyyy

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I hope it will help.

I wonder: if I think I could, would I continue with PLAN A even if he were to move out/ but not necessarily with OW? He may just need to be out of the house to better "see" himself, or would it be enabling A?

Steve gives great advice.

Listen and take notes.

Follow his guiding hand ... and don't second guess his advice.

Take care~


Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi Luna!

Im with Pep,I think Steve could best answer your question about Plan A with him out of the house.

Just wanted to post to say hello and that I hope you are feeling better today.

Take care!

Thanks to all for your support.

I did enjoy my talk with Steve Harley, who has given me some firm direction to take. I will see how I do.
We didn't discuss PLAN B at all for now.

Update.

I informed WH that I had a phone meeting with S. Harley, and would he be prepared to speak to him? I tried to be as clear as possible that it would be to discuss steps for M recovery, and not necessarily on how to "separate".

WH had some questions like: counselling over the phone? Why not speak to us together? Why is he wanting to speak separately to each of us? Aren't there enough MC that we could meet face to face right here?

I tried to answer some of his questions, but bottom line, would he be prepared to speak to him and see what he had to say?

Well, to my surprise WH said: YES.

Knowing how adamant he is about wanting to separate, I am a little surprised at his quick willingness to speak to Steve, and ask myself if he has decided to "play along". He sounded really detached, like, OK, "whatever it takes" for you to move forward so that I can move forward with my plant to separate.

I guess I was expecting him to resist, and by not resisting, WH has thrown me off guard and has me doubting his motives. He is rarely a willing party to anything without good convincing arguments.

The other thing that is getting hard for me to take, is how 'detached' he is from me, more and more as time goes by.

Again, I know it's reading between the lines, and not the most positive reading. But, I do wonder now what is WH's strategy. If it's to no longer resist and "play along" until I am tired of it all.

I am scared to think that WH may have decided to play something like "a battle of the wills", or some psychological tricks. If that's the case, I don't know if I have the strength.

Your comments would be appreciated.

P.S. WH can be very anti-institutional, play the "devil's advocate" to play the "devil's advocate", and wonder if as a result of speaking to SH, it would give him additional amunition against the institution of M and the more reason to separate. These are my fears, I know. I am writing them down, so that I do not act as if these fears are reality, at least not yet.

Any suggestions on how to best deal with "fears"? I know for a fact that my "fears" are my worst enemy, because one way to deal with them can actually be to contribute in realizing them, just to have relief from them.

I would really appreciate some feedback. Thanks.

Luna - you are waaaaaaaaaay over analyzing things here.

Your husband is having an affair. He is going to behave like a selfish b*stard every minute of every day because his head is stuck up his [censored] and he cannot see anything but himself.

That's all. Don't make it more complicated than it is.

He does not CARE how you feel.

He is not doing ANYTHING because of you.

He ONLY wants your help on the separation so he doesn't have to feel guilty about destroying the family. That is ALL he wants from you right now -- he wants your blessing on his affair so he can tell himself he didn't do anything wrong, and that his moving out has nothing to do with his cheating. Then he can say, "But Luna told me to move out."

SO DON'T COOPERATE ON HIS LEAVING!

I still think he doesn't really want to move out, or he would have made it happen by himself. It does have the effect of keeping both his marraige *and* his affair going, though, doesn't it?

Just talk to Steve. Your WH sees nothing but himself right now. Let us know what happens if he talks to Steve.
Mulan

Thanks, Mulan.

quote:--------------------------------------------------
Luna - you are waaaaaaaaaay over analyzing things here.

That's all. Don't make it more complicated than it is.

He does not CARE how you feel.

He is not doing ANYTHING because of you.
-------------------------------------------------------

When you mean complicated, it's because I may be honestly be expecting something good will come of WH's talk with Steve?

quote:-------------------------------------------------
He ONLY wants your help on the separation so he doesn't have to feel guilty about destroying the family. That is ALL he wants from you right now -- he wants your blessing on his affair so he can tell himself he didn't do anything wrong, and that his moving out has nothing to do with his cheating. Then he can say, "But Luna told me to move out."

SO DON'T COOPERATE ON HIS LEAVING!

I still think he doesn't really want to move out, or he would have made it happen by himself. It does have the effect of keeping both his marraige *and* his affair going, though, doesn't it?

Just talk to Steve. Your WH sees nothing but himself right now. Let us know what happens if he talks to Steve.
-----------------------------------------------------------

So, Mulan, are you saying that WH's agreeing to speak to Steve is his way of "cooperating" with me so that I eventually "cooperate with him"? He will be able to say that "he tried"? Sounds like you're saying it's a waste of time. Do you feel then that this is a hopeless situation?

At this point, I am not sure how or where I will get the energy to keep going. I am feeling tired - like swimming upstream. I keep digging for strength, but since it's not limitless, and can't count of WS support (as I usually do) I am not sure how to get "refills" of strength so that I can get through this.

Falling asleep and never waking up does sound like an attractive solution at times.

WH scheduled to talk to Steve next Friday.

Leaving Saturday for a conference of 4 days. Will try to focus on getting prepared, but I so much want to just sleep right now.

I know some of you may be disappointed with me. But, I want to be truthful somewhere. Being truthful to a guilt-ridden WH right now would probably mean getting accused of wanting to "manipulate him". Anyway, at this point, unless WH asks how I feel, I will just assume he doesn't care for now, and don't offer to tell.

I am glad you are here. You all may have your own "personal" reasons for coming here, but the "being there" and "caring" is really really helpful in these hard times.

If right now it sounds like I feel lost, it's because I am, and hopefully it will pass.

I guess it's probably never a good idea to get our hopes up too high - wishful thinking going on here!

Thanks again to all that take the time to read me, or should I say "reread" because I feel like a broken record sometimes.

Luna -- you are not understanding what I am saying.

Right now, your husband is behaving like a drunk. Have you ever tried to talk to someone who's drunk? Really good and drunk? They will LOOK normal, and they will say words, and they will perform actions, but NONE OF IT will make any sense.

They SAY stupid things.

They DO stupid things.

Now, when dealing with a drunk, you can do one of two things:

1) You can desperately try to make sense out of their words and actions. But you will only end up going crazy trying to make sense out of nonsense.

0r,

2) You can wait until they sober up and THEN try dealing with a sober, rational person.

My point is -- Luna, your husband is not making clever and diabolical plans to outwit you. His ONLY concern right now is himself. He is indulging in the fantasy of having two women who want him. He is a cheating husband who is drunk on his fantasy. PERIOD.

Stop trying to make sense out of nonsense. That's why you're going crazy. People who cheat are selfish and cruel. Big surprise. That's what you're seeing and feeling from him. Period.

He is not doing any of this to hurt you. He is so massivly selfish right now that you are just collateral damage. All he sees is "How can I have my fantasy of two women who want me?" Nothing else matters to him now except himself.

He's just like the drunk driver who runs over someone on his way to the bar, and doesn't even notice what he's hit. Is there any way to make sense out of that? No. It happened because the drunk driver was selfish and oblivious. You've been run over too, but your husband is too drunk to notice right now.

Please stop trying to figure him out and take care of yourself instead. Focus on yourself, and not on him. Leave him to Steve Harley and stop worrying about what "might" happen and what he "might" be thinking.

The only thinking he's doing right now is with the little head and not the big one. See what I mean? The little head has no reasoning power. That's why you're not seeing any reasonable behavior from him.

Come on, everyone else, I know you're reading -- someone else jump in here too!
Mulan

Hi Luna,

I have to agree with Mulan. Stop thinking about what your WH SAYS right now. Each moment spent trying to understand why he said this or that (and whether the this or that might be true or not)--is a moment wasted that you could otherwise be using to promote Plan A.

Focus ONLY on what he does.

He is going to talk to Steve this is GREAT NEWS! Store that "great news" feeling and use it to give you the energy to respond politely and lovingly next time he tries to tell you he wants to separate.

Now to the most important thing here, what have you done today to promote Plan A.?

For example, a Plan A response to his agreement to go to counseling might have been:

Thanks, honey. You are being a good friend to me by going and I appreciate that.

How was your day at work?

Maybe you did that. Good. Then leave it at that and wait.

If waiting makes you think about the things WH says to you. Stop. Don't wait, keep your mind busy. Make lists of things you can do to promote Plan A.

Like a family party with his family. Like an outing with the kids. Like a list of form responses to his comments about separating, etc.

I have only done Plan A from the opposite side of the spectrum but I still think it is comparable. (my BS told me he wanted to end our M when I informed him of my As, yes there were two). I spent several months with him pretty convinced he didn't want me. He even told me to pack my bags and leave (on a number of ocasions).

But I didn't. I just responded lovingly each time (well, okay ALMOST each time).

Another thing I did was call his father and ask him to stay with us for several weeks. During which time, I took BS to a nearby Island and we spend 24/7 together for six days.

You situation is a bit different, because I didn't have the force of someone on the otherside working against me, so it is even MORE important for you to get him away from her and alone with you for an extended vacation.

Do you think such a thing may be feasable?

Thanks Mulan and Ahuman.

How patient you all are with me! As Dr. Phil says - I need "to get it". Don't give up on me.

OK I will work at not trying to make sense out of what WH says. When he speaks to me, I will try and imagine him DRUNK and need to wait until he's sober (if ever) and don't waste my time trying to discuss anything with him while at the same time trying not to ignore him!

I am working on PLAN A as best as I can. WH seems to be noticing some changes. No LBs (other than him being frustrated that I don't agree that separation is the only solution and not wanting to set a date for separation).

to Ahuman: unfortunately, going off with him alone right now is not possible (logistically, besides the fact that he may not want to!). Hopefully I may arrange for a few days with him in a few weeks.

PLAN A: Focusing on making home atmosphere pleasant, supporting and encouraging him in his work, trying not to be needy or clingy, not saying ILY, avoiding R discussions (unless he brings it up and then I will now try to not understand, discuss or argue, but acknowledge what he says only). My overall objective being to somehow eliminate reasons WH wanted out of M in the first place. Working on "calming" my Taker by Me taking care of Me, because H is not there right now. Keep telling myself that this is not a sprint but a marathon.

I still could use some suggestions on possible answers, like:

When I don't want to set date of separation or discuss details re arrangements re boys, finances, etc. and he is frustrated and says why can't I accept that it's over between us - that if he doesn't want to consider recovery - but now wants to go forward with OW - it's a "deal breaker" and that I should just accept it?

I am really stuck on how to answer him. At some level, it is a "dealbreaker" if WH is totally against the idea of recovery and exploring that option. I know now this is trying to make sense and seriously consider what he says, and I shouldn't be doing that, but, what DO I say that will acknowledge what he says without agreeing with him.

I need to keep busy and not THINK so much.