I reread myself.

I think I need to stop suggesting the option of working on recovery when WH wants to discuss separation, but I don't know what else I could say, literally. This part I still don't get. I know now what I need to be THINKING "try not to make sense of what he is saying", but what to say, literally - I am really stuck.

What have some of you said to your WS?

a) This house is not a prison, but me and the boys love you and want you to stay with us.

WS: It sure feels like it.

BS:??????

b)BS: I can't work on separation because I don't want to separate.

WS: So, you want me to literally walk out? Is that what you are saying?

BS:????

c) If I were to say: work on recovery of M is also an option.

WS: Well, I don't want to.

BS:????


I am sorry for being so SLOW at what for some of you must be the obvious.

***When I don't want to set date of separation or discuss details re arrangements re boys, finances, etc. and he is frustrated and says why can't I accept that it's over between us - that if he doesn't want to consider recovery - but now wants to go forward with OW - it's a "deal breaker" and that I should just accept it?***

Why on earth does he need your "acceptance?" Tell him that if he wants to leave, he can leave. If he wants a separation, he can set that up HIMSELF. He doesn't need your "acceptance" or cooperation for any of that. He sure didn't ask for your acceptance or cooperation before going out and getting himself a girlfriend, did he?

Luna, LET HIM be frustrated and angry. That is one of the consequences of his affair. Stop trying to protect him from the consequences of his own actions. Just smile sweetly and say, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I would like to repair our marriage. If you want something else, you are free to go out and have it. But I am under no obligation to help you destroy our family."

Then walk away.


***a) This house is not a prison, but me and the boys love you and want you to stay with us.
WS: It sure feels like it.
BS:??????***

BS: I'm sorry you feel that way. Your life is under YOU control. You are free to leave if you wish. We cannot force you to stay. (Walk Away.)


***b)BS: I can't work on separation because I don't want to separate.
WS: So, you want me to literally walk out? Is that what you are saying?
BS:????***

BS: No, I just said I don't want to separate. But if you insist on a separation, you are free to leave if you wish. We cannot force you to stay. (Walk Away)


***c) If I were to say: work on recovery of M is also an option.
WS: Well, I don't want to.
BS:????***

BS: I'm sorry you feel that way. In that case, you will have to do what is best for you and I will have to do what is best for me and the boys. (Walk Away)


It looks to me like he's trying his best to get YOU to tell him to leave. He wants YOU to throw him out because if you do, I guarantee he will go out and tell EVERYONE that "Luna kicked me out!" Then he is free to go live with his girlfriend and he can tell himself it's not his fault!

DON'T FALL FOR IT. MAKE HIM DO THIS HIMSELF. LET HIM FEEL THE NATURAL CONSEQUENCES OF HIS OWN ACTIONS (anger, frustration, guilt, etc.)

Then just sit back and watch the show.
Let us know how it goes with Steve Harley.
Also, give a shout out to Orchid for some help with the Reverse Babble.
Mulan

Mulan, thanks for your quick response. I really really appreciate it.

What I didn't get before is, say what you need to say, and "walk away". I am really going to try and do this as best as I can. Maybe I will try to think: what would Mulan say? I'll try to search for Orchid's Reverse Babble.

I am going to try and do and say and BE something that I am not usually. That's why I am having a hard time, but will try my hardest because there is so much at stake.

***Maybe I will try to think: what would Mulan say?***

LOL - I'm not sure that's such a good idea! Sure, it's much easier for me to tell someone else what to do - I am not emotionally involved with your H.

But back when my WH started threatening to leave, I DID open the front door for him, hand him his car keys, and walk away. He has not made that threat since.

And when he recently got nasty and told me that "any other man would have left me by now," I told him he was free to go ANYTIME. That he knew I would hand him his keys and open the door for him. I also suggested he tell his NEXT wife he was only offering a part-time relationship so he would not end up like this again -- with some crazy woman living in his house who THOUGHT he was her husband. Then I shut up about it. He did, later, apologize for saying that.

***I'll try to search for Orchid's Reverse Babble.***
Now that's a good idea!
Mulan

Hi Luna,

You sound more up beat, stronger and more focused!! I hope that's how you feel!

You said:
"I am going to try and do and say and BE something that I am not usually. That's why I am having a hard time, but will try my hardest because there is so much at stake."

Please, any BSs correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think ANYONE gets through this process without changing!

Oh and from my WS point of view--Mulan hit the nail on the head! Your WH doesn't want to take the step of abandonning his family. He doesn't REALLY want to choose. He wants you both--in his messed up thinking--separating with "your permission" is like keepng you as his friend his confidant about the kids etc. and yet still getting OW! That's why he hasn't just walked away!

Hang in there!

Thanks for your support, Mulan and Ahuman.

I hope I can stay focused.

I agree. WH doesn't really want to choose, and doesn't really want to walk away, but he may have to do both, because I certainly don't intend to give "my blessing", but he can leave, because I can't stop him, if he wants to. He's going to have to consider settling for "less" from my end.

All I know he is itching to make a "move", and therefore the stress level is increasing.

I don't know where I would be if I couldn't come to the board, because these are very very lonely times.

***All I know he is itching to make a "move", and therefore the stress level is increasing.***

Exactly. Just let it be HIS stress level. Do not lift a finger to help him with this separation he says he wants. Just sit back and watch. The only way he will ever wake up is to fully experience the consequences of his own freely chosen actions. Let him get the FULL experience.

His fantasy is that you will agree it's okay for him to move out if that makes him happy, and that you will still be his friend and co-parent even though he's living with another woman.

This is how "drunk" he is -- he actually thinks that is a reasonable arrangement.

The reality is that a man who abandons his family for another woman LOSES that family.

He's got to learn this on his own.

Don't get in his way.
Mulan

Ditto to Mulan. Hi Mulan! (This is AHuman waving at you).

"I don't know where I would be if I couldn't come to the board, because these are very very lonely times. "

Luna--come to the board any time you feel lonely. You are not alone. We're reading. We care. (Even we "bad guy" FWSs).

Hang in there!

I am going out of town for a few days. Don't expect to have access to computer.

I will be missing you all.

Am I getting addicted to the board? Hard to imagine going without it for 4 days!

Went shopping for 'thoughts' for my 'family' - parents and brother's family. We will be visiting my parents next weekend. This will be the 'first' time doing so in my new 'reality'. My parents aren't aware of our marital problems. They don't live in the same town. We see them at the most twice a year. They're old. I won't burden them (and me needing to console them) with our M problems. They wouldn't understand. They celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary two years ago! Inspite of going to visit with WH instead of H, I think it will be OK. I hope. It won't be the same. I know. Nothing will ever be the same. How sad.

I will be thinking of you all. You're like a 'new family' to me. When I start to feel alone, I'll think of Ahuman, Mulan, Pepperband, Melodylane, WAT, Bob, just to name a few and I will feel less alone. Your efforts will not be lost on me, let me assure you.

I'll look for you when you come back. Make sure you update us. Its funny how attached we get to the board. But I figure WS is giving NO support and MB's absolutely get it! I think we are all addicted! LOL Have a good trip and be safe. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Well, I lost my posting. Trying again.

To confused42: Thanks for the thought. You are right. WS is giving NO support.

Back from being away for a few days and WS is very very "distant".

My two new challenges: We have scheduled a "family" visit to my parents this weekend- haven't seen them for 9 months, and they are not aware of our M problems. I hope I can "keep it together". The second one, is that WS will be speaking to Steve Harley tomorrow morning. I wonder if I should or should not ask what he thought of what Steve had to say, etc., but I think I won't. I will let him bring it up when he wants to. I do feel a lot will depend on what WS thinks of what Steve has to say. Unfortunately, WS is also under a lot of stress at work, on top of his "double" life.

Anyway, the pain is there, always, and I admit it at times hard to take. I am in a "one foot before the other" mode and do feel often "powerless" over the situation.

How long will I be able to hang on, I ask myself?

This LIMBO situation is really hard to live through! The "tension" and the "non-spoken" at home is really hard. I miss my H so much, and so, I guess, it's the pain, but now the "loneliness" is really hitting hard, too.

Anyway, I am glad I can come to the Board. I honestly really don't have anywhere else to turn.

Thanks for being there.

Bumped for comments.

WS expected to speak to Steve H. tomorrow.

Should I even consider discussing how it went with WS? Like: has Steve H. suggested we speak with him together? Are you willing to talk with him again?

Should I get in touch with Steve H. directly to ask for additional advice after he has spoken with WS?

I would appreciate your comments.

Well. I left for work this morning while WH was talking to Steve H. on the phone.

I am not sure what to do next.

I would really appreciate any comments.

Luna, I think we're kinda waiting to see what Steve Harley said to you, and said to your WS, and how WS reacted.

What happened?
Mulan

Hi Mulan,

You're right. I didn't elaborate about MY talk with Steve H. I just assumed you know what he generally advises BS. Based on the information I gave him, he concluded that one of WS's EN was - Admiration - for his work, etc. The OW works with him - it's hard to compete, but I have made it a point each day to give him a chance to discuss his projects, problems to resolve, etc. and basically listen as much as he needs me to - and more or less be a "sounding board", encourage him and I am genuinely interested in his work, so, it's not hard to do, but I guess it doesn't have the same impact as OW who works directly with him on projects right now.

What I also learned from Steve is that A result as a "failure to protect weaknesses" (unmet needs). Knowing that WS may be reluctant to talk to him, Steve coached me on how to convince WS to talk to him, which I admit he easily agreed to - his motives for doing so I don't quite know - to move things along? Maybe.

How did WS find his talk with Steve? I haven't talked to him, yet, and I am not sure how to go about it. Do I ask him directly? Do I wait for him to bring up the subject when he is ready to?

Right now I expect WS to hold his position - wanting to separate - inspite of his discussion with Steve H. I think he did to please me, and won't want to take it further. Because I expect the next step to be a phone appt with Steve with both of us, and I don't expect him to agree to it. In that case, I am not sure what to do next.

This is where I could use some suggestions - continue with PLAN A? Have another appt with Steve H. alone, if WS doesn't want to?

We are visiting my parents this weekend, after 9 months. My plan is to enjoy the visit as much as possible and avoid R discussions with WS.

I really could use some comments before going off for 3 days with WH and boys. I also know that I am just trying to keep busy. I guess I am both anxious and curious about what WS has to say about his phone appt. with Steve. It's like, it was an 'objective'. Now what? If WS is open to Steve's suggestions, fine. If not, what next? Is WS trying to "wear me out", so that will go with the "flow" - HIS FLOW.

Luna, if Plan A is your choice, then stick with it. But stick with ALL of it, which includes exposing his affair to family, friends and co-workers as well as telling him that you have no interest in a marriage that includes a third party. This is not an "LB" -- this is the truth.

I am concerned that you know very well he is a cake-eater and that he'll drag this out (the threesome) as long as he possibly can. You should not be trying to Plan A when you are all but suicidal with pain and suffering from his emotional abuse (and that's exactly what it is.)

Somewhere on this site, Harley says: "When the WS is trying to 'decide' between the spouse and the OP, it's time for Plan B."

We have said before to stop letting him bully you with his "cooperate with the separation or else" idiocy. Have you told him that if he wants a separation, HE will have to set it up and make it happen, because YOU will not lift a finger in the destruction of your family?

It sounds like he has you paralyzed over this. Have you told him you will not "help" him do this? What did he say?
Mulan

Thanks Mulan for being so quick to reply.

WS says HE doesn't find threesome acceptable, which is why he wants a separation. WS says he finds it difficult to stay at home and "act" as if everything is fine, when in reality he is thinking about OW. (I also think that he expects a separation to alleviate some of the "guilt" he feels over the A - by no longer making it an A but making it his next true R, he would "legitimize" the A, and is prepared to be "judged" by everyone, if that's what it means. Remember, OW left 27-year marriage for WS!

I anticipate WS to "drag it out" to convince me that separation is the best solution given his feeling for OW, and therefore, I will then cooperate. That's how I see his willingness to speak to Steve H.

He cares very much about the boys (but not enough, I guess!). He knows that unless I cooperate (I believe he sees it as "damage" control), they will suffer even more if we were to become two uncooperative parents. So, WS feels if he has done "damage" by having an A and wanting to separate, he wants me to cooperate and be a willing partner in it so that the boys suffer the least in the process.

WS knows that if a separation is inevitable, I certainly would prefer to cooperate rather than not for the sake of the boys and myself. Can't see myself "fighting" WS. But before going there, I would rather work on our M. At this point, to do so, for WS it would mean giving up on OW, which he is not prepared to do.

So, it seems like we are locked in two opposite "positions". He won't consider giving up OW, and I am not prepared to cooperate with separation (for now, he hopes).

What I think is his objective? To go live with OW while at the same time have a "cooperative" exwife to raise the kids as best as he can. He can't consider giving up OW for just the sake of the kids, nor for a possibly "repaired" M with me. Given the choice: WS chooses OW (but he is still at home, and figures it will only be a matter of time before I "come around", by finding the situation too unbearable. Or, WS is prepared to leave on "bad terms" with me, if he has to, and at the expense of the boys being raised by two separated by cooperative parents.

That's probably why I am anxious to know what he thought of his exchange with Steve H. I really don't think I should expect a lot - if that's the case - WS hopes to slowly eliminate the options and hope I face and accept our new "reality".

The situation does feel like a "battle of the wills" sometimes. At the same time, I would like to PLAN A, if I can manage not to suffer so much from the "neglect" from WS (not take everything so personal) so that in the future I can at least say I tried, and did not make a "quick" decision. If WS were open to it, which he is not, I do think our M could be recovered. But, as he says: I don't want to.

WS figures he is giving me time to adjust, because he does care for me, but he is not "in love with me".

I am trying to remain hopeful, and not let the enormity of the task get to me. I keep telling myself: you never know!

***WS says HE doesn't find threesome acceptable, which is why he wants a separation. WS says he finds it difficult to stay at home and "act" as if everything is fine, when in reality he is thinking about OW. (I also think that he expects a separation to alleviate some of the "guilt" he feels over the A - by no longer making it an A but making it his next true R, he would "legitimize" the A, and is prepared to be "judged" by everyone, if that's what it means. Remember, OW left 27-year marriage for WS!***

If he wants the separation so much, then why doesn't he do anything about it?

Because:
1) He doesn't really want a separation. He wants to keep both of you.
2) If he can't keep both of you, then guilt-free separation with your blessing is his second choice. Know why that's okay with him? Because he honestly thinks you will sit and wait for him while he has his fun with OW, and that he can come back to you when he's done with her. After all, you agreed to "friendly" separation, didn't you?

***I anticipate WS to "drag it out" to convince me that separation is the best solution given his feeling for OW, and therefore, I will then cooperate. That's how I see his willingness to speak to Steve H.***

Luna, I think you are getting very few responses because you don't seem to hear what we are saying to you. You are making it complicated and convoluted and dancing yourself silly trying to figure out what WS's every word and action means.

Okay, last time. Here's what it means:

YOUR HUSBAND IS INDULGING IN THE FANTASY OF HAVING TWO WOMEN AT ONCE. HE WANTS YOUR BLESSING SO HE DOESN'T HAVE TO FEEL GUILTY AND CAN BE ASSURED OF KEEPING YOU BOTH. PERIOD. THE END.

Once you realize this, and stop trying to "negotiate" a "friendly" separation, you will realize just how full of cr*p he is right now. STOP trying to appease him. The nonsense will go on FOREVER if you do.

***********************************
***He cares very much about the boys (but not enough, I guess!). He knows that unless I cooperate (I believe he sees it as "damage" control), they will suffer even more if we were to become two uncooperative parents. So, WS feels if he has done "damage" by having an A and wanting to separate, he wants me to cooperate and be a willing partner in it so that the boys suffer the least in the process.

WS knows that if a separation is inevitable, I certainly would prefer to cooperate rather than not for the sake of the boys and myself. Can't see myself "fighting" WS. But before going there, I would rather work on our M. At this point, to do so, for WS it would mean giving up on OW, which he is not prepared to do.

So, it seems like we are locked in two opposite "positions". He won't consider giving up OW, and I am not prepared to cooperate with separation (for now, he hopes).

What I think is his objective? To go live with OW while at the same time have a "cooperative" exwife to raise the kids as best as he can. He can't consider giving up OW for just the sake of the kids, nor for a possibly "repaired" M with me. Given the choice: WS chooses OW (but he is still at home, and figures it will only be a matter of time before I "come around", by finding the situation too unbearable. Or, WS is prepared to leave on "bad terms" with me, if he has to, and at the expense of the boys being raised by two separated by cooperative parents.

That's probably why I am anxious to know what he thought of his exchange with Steve H. I really don't think I should expect a lot - if that's the case - WS hopes to slowly eliminate the options and hope I face and accept our new "reality".

The situation does feel like a "battle of the wills" sometimes. At the same time, I would like to PLAN A, if I can manage not to suffer so much from the "neglect" from WS (not take everything so personal) so that in the future I can at least say I tried, and did not make a "quick" decision. If WS were open to it, which he is not, I do think our M could be recovered. But, as he says: I don't want to.

WS figures he is giving me time to adjust, because he does care for me, but he is not "in love with me".***
*******************************************

Blah, blah, blah, more of the same. I'm not trying to be mean to you. I'm trying to tell you to stop trying to make sense out of nonsense and stop trying to negotiate with the terrorist who is holding your family hostage.

Here's what you do instead:

Tell him you do NOT want a separation.

If he wants one, he needs to shut up and make it happen. You will NOT cooperate. Then leave the room, leave the house, go do something else.

Your children will NOT be helped in any way by watching Mommy nicely and politely help Daddy leave the family to go be with his girlfriend.

Do you really want to do that??? What kind of message does THAT send? Do you really think this is better than showing your children that even if Daddy has no respect for the marriage, at least Mommy does???

You are paralyzed right now. He's a bully and a terrorist and he's got you right where he wants you. He's holding you hostage through your children. Until you stop being afraid of him and what he might or might not do, he will control this forever.

And where does that leave your children?

You are not going to be able to deal with this until you're willing to get your hands dirty, though you're trying desperately not to do that.

Won't work.

Okay. So you tell him you will not help destroy the family and you will not help him get a separation. He gets furious, calls you names, rubs his affair in your face, tells you it's all YOUR fault, and goes off to live with his girlfriend.

Please tell me who has done the wrong thing and who has done the right thing.
Mulan

Ok Mulan.

You're right. It's blah blah blah. Why would anyone respond? So, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing so. I really appreciate it. I don't know how many times I need to be told. But thanks for telling me over and over. I AM still trying to make sense out of NONSENSE. I will need to write that on my forehead.

quote:---------------------------------------------------
You are paralyzed right now. He's a bully and a terrorist and he's got you right where he wants you. He's holding you hostage through your children. Until you stop being afraid of him and what he might or might not do, he will control this forever.

And where does that leave your children?

You are not going to be able to deal with this until you're willing to get your hands dirty, though you're trying desperately not to do that.

Won't work.

Okay. So you tell him you will not help destroy the family and you will not help him get a separation. He gets furious, calls you names, rubs his affair in your face, tells you it's all YOUR fault, and goes off to live with his girlfriend.

Please tell me who has done the wrong thing and who has done the right thing.
---------------------------------------------------------

You're right again. I am AFRAID it will get MESSY, and won't know what to do then. I am AFRAID of being considered CONTROLLING by not cooperating. I am AFRAID of being lonely. I am AFRAID that my boys will be hurt even more if I don't cooperate. I am AFRAID of losing respect for myself for wanting to stay in a M with someone who right now says wants nothing more to do with M. I am AFRAID of making situation worse by not cooperating. I am AFRAID of being judged and told: why do you stay? I am AFRAID I might not be as strong as people think I am. Most of all, I am AFRAID of his reaction/actions if I don't cooperate.

So, basically, FEAR is paralysing me.

I just need to hold my breath and let it happen and trust that I will be able to handle it, which right now I guess I am not convinced I will be able to.

So, what's a BS to do who lacks confidence and self-esteem, feels dependent, weak and unworthy? No wonder I am struggling. I need to first start SEEING myself differently if I am to go anywhere with this. I need to see myself as strong and capable to face whatever comes at me. I guess this is where I am at. The need to face myself, accept myself, forgive myself.

Thank you Mulan for being willing to live the frustration of telling someone the same thing over and over again.

I want you to know that your replies this afternoon have really really helped me to feel better. Please don't stop telling what I need to hear until I do.