Losttranslation: thanks for the encouragement. I read your threads. I know it must have been hard for you. You are an inspiration, and wish I was at where you are. It sounds like you are definitely at a better place now, and it sounds like you will be OK no matter what.

Ahuman: we crossed-post. I agree with you. I think my "images" are not helping me. I need to consciously see what they are. As you see, I am catching myself thinking 'negative' images rather than positive ones.

I appreciate exchanging with you all. I really want to get to a better place than where I am right now.

IMHO, Your images are negative, because you don't seem to be REALLY planning. You are simply reacting to what WH does.

For example, when is your Plan A end date? You can't have a workable plan without at least an end date in sight. Okay, so come on, when is the date?

As to the finances matter, I can't imagine why you would already need to be thinking about selling the house in order to do Plan B. This seems far too premature. What if he comes back in a few months and wants to work on things?

Besides, wouldn't you still be collecting his paycheck? Didn't you say that you have other property?

Plus, why should the kids suffer and lose their life. If he wants out so bad, can't he go sleep on a couch somewhere?

For THAt matter, why don't you send him to live with OW (LOL!), sorry, probably a bad joke, but having been through this before I just imagined your WH when "REALITY" hits and he finds he gave up his family to live with some woman who leaves wet towels on the bed and doesn't treat his kids the way he wishes!!!

Your situation really reminds me of my parents. When my mom left for OM (I was 15), she insisted that he could not live with us (though they later married and did live together) because she "didn't want it to affect the kids" HA! LOL! What logic eh! Anyway, I say this because it wasn't until the LIVED together that the fog really lifted and my mother realized WHAT HAVE I DONE!!!

Food for thought.

Ahuman,

The end date: end of school year - WS would either leave or stay. I am not asking about his plans until then, because I said I would not "help" him if he wanted to separate. The problem is: I don't want him to leave, and I don't know if I am ready to see him leave.

I think the finances worry WS, too. He's a freelancer. Can't be certain of his income. We really manage because there is the two of us working and one household. I even wonder if the reason he has not left yet is because of finances. He wants to rent an appt nearby big enough to have the boys over, does not want to live with OW, but we really don't have the money to do that unless we do make major financial changes (sell property!), and he knows this. He would like to do what he wants (move out) without disrupting our lives too much, to help with guilt mostly I guess, but he knows it can't be done. I think he's trying to muster enough courage to do the damage he needs to do for him to get what he wants. He can't have the cake and eat, too. What I see happening is WH taking time to get closer to OW and getting more "distance" with me. I know for a fact that WS would prefer I kick him out, and I would really like him to take responsibility for his choices, at least. But for now, where I am at now, I know I will be devastated if and when he does leave and really need to be prepared to accept it because I am not still. I can't see myself coping very well. I need to work on this.

Luna, Plan A is meant to be a short term approach designed to end the affair. It is not supposed to be a way of life that faciliates the affair - that is what it has become here. It shouldn't be used longer than 3-6 months and should never be used when the WS is cake eating or is being destructive. That is the case here. So no, this is not a "waiting phase," [what are you waiting for?] this is intended to be an ACTION phase where you negotiate the end of the affair, not a phase where you enable and facilitate the affair.


Luna, why wait a month? There is absolutely no reason to wait a day. You are already suicidal sitting around while he rubs his affair in your nose. How much worse can it get? Do your fears of taking action and/or being alone supercede the suicidal thoughts that come from watching this destruction up front and close? Are you aware that after a few short weeks, most BS' report a feeling of peace and empowerment they have not experienced in months? This is from 2 things: 1. taking control of their lives and 2. the removal of a very destructive emotional source from their lives.

luna, you have clearly reached a place where you deseperately need the peace that comes from Plan B. I don't know how you can't fail to see that your H is not going anywhere, he is simply carrying on an affair frm the comforts of home. He is getting his needs met in TWO places, which only enables him to continue his affair. If you quit meeting his needs and went into Plan B, he would be able to quickly see that the OW cannot possibly meet his needs, which wold be the ruin of their affair. But until you withdraw into Plan B, he will not see that truth.

P.S. if you don't take a lick of my advice, which I really don't expect, please at least take this: please, please call Steve Harley and let him know you are having suicidal thoughts now. He needs to know how far down this has really gone.

Cara Luna!

What are you presently doing for work?

If your native language is Italiano and you speak predominantly Francais with your WH and you write such good English, you must be very talented and knowledgeable with languages! Are you able to use this in your present work? You must surely realize that being able to source from more than one culture, that you not only have a better understanding of your origins, but also a better understanding of the culture that you are presently living in than most of your acquaintances/peers? You do realize, I hope, how precious and special you are?

Instead of making a multo male list of your biggest fears, make one of your assets and attributes. Define your personal goals and dreams that have to do with you and your life ... not WH and/or his A. Make a short-term plan on reaching some of those easier goals and tasks, celebrate the little daily successes you achieve, gain courage, and make plans for a longer-term goal as well. take one day, one step at a time. Try not to dwell on the past or worry too far in the future at this point. That is too overwhelming (believe me, I still feel that!). Live for today. Meditate in the morning, make a to-do checklist with three priorities. Achieve those three tasks and rejoice if you achieve four!

One day at a time...it's ok to feel depressed, you can't get around it, you just have to get through it. Its like a tunnel with no bypass. The only way to the sunrise is through that tunnel.

I read a book called "Let your Life Speak: Listening for the Voice of Voacation". It was enlightening enough to let me realize that even dark depression can bring about positive growth and changes. Don't miss out or avoid your inner journey by focusing on WH and the A. Cara Luna, your trip is so worthwhile!

Ciao cara!

Luna -- both Melody and LIT are giving you excellent advice. Please listen to them.
Mulan

Thank you Melodylane, Losttranslation and Mulan,

ML - quote:-----------------------------------------------
So no, this is not a "waiting phase," [what are you waiting for?] this is intended to be an ACTION phase where you negotiate the end of the affair, not a phase where you enable and facilitate the affair.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I thought I was doing that by asking WS to stop A and consider working on our M. WS has problems making/taking decisions, has a hard time with pressure, and is expected to work with OW until end of school year. He knows he needs to make a decision by then. By expecting WS to have contact with OW right now, I guess I am enabling and facilitating A, and it is why I am finding it emotionally draining, and it is doing more damage to our R.

ML - quote:-----------------------------------------------
Luna, why wait a month?
----------------------------------------------------------
To see whether or not he does actually move out.

ML - quote:-----------------------------------------------
if you don't take a lick of my advice, which I really don't expect.....
----------------------------------------------------------
Melodylane, I respect your advice, and I think you are right, PLAN B would be in order considering my dark thoughts, but before I go to PLAN B I need to at least imagine myself to be able to do it, or else how will I stick to it? But, I can't ignore the fact that right now I am having major troubles emotionally. I also think it's because I haven't done a good PLAN A. I have avoided LBs, but I haven't been working on myself, but ML - I hear your frustration with my inability to ACT right now. I know what you want for me is to minimize my pain.

LL - quote:-----------------------------------------------
Instead of making a multo male list of your biggest fears, make one of your assets and attributes. Define your personal goals and dreams that have to do with you and your life ... not WH and/or his A. Make a short-term plan on reaching some of those easier goals and tasks, celebrate the little daily successes you achieve, gain courage, and make plans for a longer-term goal as well. take one day, one step at a time. Try not to dwell on the past or worry too far in the future at this point. That is too overwhelming (believe me, I still feel that!). Live for today. Meditate in the morning, make a to-do checklist with three priorities. Achieve those three tasks and rejoice if you achieve four!

One day at a time...it's ok to feel depressed, you can't get around it, you just have to get through it. Its like a tunnel with no bypass. The only way to the sunrise is through that tunnel.
----------------------------------------------------------

I can see myself doing some of these things.

Also, I had my IC appointment last night, and I think it serves WS as a reminder of what he is putting me through.

Would appreciate your comments on short exchange with WS last night, when he acknowledged damage he is doing to our M.

BS: well, you can stop doing the damage.
WS: I want to make major changes in my life, and I know this means hurting you a lot (i.e. moving out, OW)
BS: Consider making slightly less major changes that don't hurt me then.
WS: I know you are waiting for me, and to have things get back between us as before.
BS: .....with a lot of changes.
BS: I am having a very difficult time with all of this.
WS: I know, so am I. I also know that I cannot expect you to agree with my decisions. I know you are really scared about the future, I think, so am I.

I know it's not a lot. But, it was done calmly and honestly, with no LBs. To me WS is not that sure of himself, or am I hearing what I want to hear and kidding myself?

***WS: I know you are waiting for me***

This is all he hears. As soon as he hears this part, his ears shut down. This is all he needs to know. This allows him to enjoy his A for as long as he wants, because he knows you will wait for him while he's gone and he can always come back whenever he feels like it. No worries at all for him.

***BS: .....with a lot of changes.***

This goes right in one ear and out the other. This does NOT register with him. It means nothing to him. Blah blah blah. All he got was, "Luna is waiting for me and she'll go on waiting for me no matter how selfishly I act or how badly I treat her."

So, why should HE change anything -- ?

Plan A for 6-8 weeks while the BS exposes the affair and makes some positive changes is one thing.

Sitting and waiting helplessly to "see what he's going to do" is a completely different thing.

What you are doing now is only enabling his affair and destroying you and your family. That's why we keep telling you to take control here instead of doing nothing and simply hoping WS will wake up and make everything better.

He's not going to do that. No WS every does. If things are going to get better, you are the one who has to make it happen.
Mulan

Ditto to Mulan.

He is NOT going to wake up under the current circumstances, if he hasnt already. WS only seem to see what they DONT have. (Notice on the board how many start flipping out after Plan B is in force?)

I am wondering if you can expound on a former comment you made.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
LUNA SAID:
The problem is: I don't want him to leave, and I don't know if I am ready to see him leave.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

These "feelings" seem normal to me-- But the reality is HE IS ALREADY GONE. The man in your house today is abusing you and setting a horrible example for your kids. An you don't want him to leave?

Maybe exploring why you feel this way (about not wanting him to leave even though he continues this behavior) will help you work through it.

Another question I have: how is he going to respect and love you if you are letting him walk all over you? He will believe you that your M will be different, when he sees you stand up for yourself. When he sees that Luna is different.

Besides Luna--if your WH never gets it--you are BETTER OFF without him!!

One other thing, then I will stop giving you more comments than you ever wanted--one concern you voiced was about him taking complete responsiblity for leaving. If you make him choose (and leave if he chooses OW), he is STILL going to have to own that choice. He can't blame you for breaking up the M just because you insisted he stop having an A!!

Thanks for your reply Mulan,

WS thought that our M was over when I learned about A. I needed WS to know that it did not necessarily have to be so. WS now admits that it's a choice.

WS now doesn't see himself doing the work: end A, work on recovery of M. Thinks it's easier to separate and start new R with OW. We all know this is not so.

WS says he will move out. I am not stopping him from doing it (but decided that I would not help him, and for now, nor will I kick him out). With no opposition, the closer he gets to having to do it, will WS see that it is not necessarily the easiest route? But, yes, in the meantime, I am subjecting myself to emotional abuse and as you say "destroying you and your family".

What I am hearing you say is that I am in denial, that I am making up excuses not to act, because it definitely has been long enough, because what I am now telling myself is that I will wait until the end of the school year - that's the time WS will no longer be working with OW, and can realistically consider ending A, or not. After the end of the school year, I will have run out of excuses. Will I have had enough, and will I have the courage to do what I need to do? I hope so.

But in the meantime, a lot of damage is being done, and the next few weeks could actually be the worse, anxiety wise, with what I see as the "natural deadline" approaching.

I can't say that at this point I would blame you for not even bothering to read me, but thanks to all that do and put up with my INACTION at the moment. Please know that I am taking in all that you are saying, and that one day I will "get it".

Luna, he has made a decision. He told you he has chosen the OW and intends to move out. When it is convenient. When the spirit moves him. Until then, he fully intends to carry on his affair and rub your nose in it. You won't stop him so he can do what he damn well pleases, when he damn well pleases. As you said, he has a hard time with "pressure," so is taking his sweet time while you evolve to the edge of suicide in a mess of hopeless despair.

And yes, you should be committed to Plan B before you do it. And that is my advice: go to Plan B NOW and make that committment. Do it now, Luna, before you have a nervous breakdown. You act like Plan B will be somehow harder than living in such a dark depression that you feel suicidal. Now that is really crazy. Plan B will give you some much needed peace and relief from the depression and having the affair rubbed in your nose every day.

Lunamare,
Your IC appointment does not remind WS of what he is putting you through. Your depression does not cause him guilt for what he has done.

Don't even think for one second that he will see himself as responsible your pain and depression. I figure that all WHs still involved in an affair will rewrite history in their minds and think and say that you have always been mentally unstable and constantly depressed or hysterical and that it is no wonder that he sought love and understanding in the arms of the OW.

So, don't think that being clingy and needy and depressed and in anguish will make you an attractive alternative for him. You are practically driving him into the arms of the OW.

It isn't fair, I know, but you are going to have to fix all the damage that WH has done to your soul. Get your act together! Have you visited a psychiatrist? Are you on any AD medication? If not, believe me, this will make a BIG difference. But that still won't be enough, because your depression is situational and YOU are going to have to change your situation! YOU have to make your home a happy and peaceful place to be.

Separation is a decision only you can make. For me, it was necessary to achieve enough emotional distance from WH and learn to concentrate on me and my children. Now I am doing quite well and I could handle doing a Plan A with him back home and he would have a more intimate look at all the changes I've made in myself and my behavior. But it would be a mistake at this point for me to ask WH to come back home. I laid a boundary and I have to stick to it: WH can first come home when he has established NC with OW and we have negotiated plans for recovery. With him not living at home, I am going to have to go out of my way to make sure that he sees the changes and I need to reach out to him (in a selfless way to do some little thing for him) daily, yet still show a strong, cheerful, and independant woman that is doing just fine without him.

The disavantage of going to a Plan B now is that your WH will not have an advantageous memory of a nice pleasant life with you at home. Still, Lunamare, you need to put your own personal recovery at the very top of your priority list. Separation might be the only way that you can achieve that.

TO: Melodylane and Losttranslation,

Thanks for your replies. You have both given me really good advice, and if you weren't there to give me a reality check, I would be (am still!) lost in my 'wishful thinking'.

LL: I forgot that WH "rewrite history in their minds" to seek "love and understanding in the arms of the OW".

Yesterday and today, I am feeling a bit better. I am going to take this one day at a time and see. For me to consider separation/PLAN B I need to somehow get some strength back, "detach" more. I know, I know... that would be what would get my strength back!

You all need to know this - you have implanted in my mind what I 'need to be doing' and even if I am not doing it right now, I never lose sight of it.

Right now, WH is pleasant with me and giving me mixed messages (I guess I should expect that). The tension around the house seems to have decreased. I need to see where this goes. I can already hear you all: "nowhere" girl! It really needs to 'sink in' before I can make a move.

I will keep you up to date.

My challenge of the day: this afternoon I am going to see a presentation that my little boy is in at school. I expect OW to be there, too!

Updadate. Survived challenge of being in the same room as OW. Obviously, NC ever took place between us. I would even say it was quite enjoyable, and a lot less stressful than I anticipated.

Update.

WH and I spoke to children last night about separation. WH will not be coming home tonight.

WH supposedly is in period of reflection(?)/finding apt. for him to have boys over.

In the meantime, when he does want to see boys at the house, he will let me know and I will arrange not to be there.

I don't know if I did a very good PLAN A for me to go into PLAN B.

What I am trying to do now is just look at the figures and see if I will be able to make ends meets, etc. on my own, and what I need to do on that end.

If I don't think I can do a "real" PLAN B, and go completely dark, should I consider PLAN A the times we see each other, invite him in family activities, etc., show him I am moving on in the meantime, or what message would this be giving WH (to be honest, I don't even know if I can do this, because I am heartbroken right now).

Luna, you have it backwards. I don't think you have the strength necessary to STAY in Plan A. You don't have the strength to live with him while he carries on his affair right under your nose. It has pushed you to the edge of suicide, dear.

In Plan B, you would experience some much needed relief from all that. You would feel the grief and anxiety of separation initially, but it would subside considerably after a few weeks. After that, you would feel some peace and some much needed empowerment for taking back control of your life from a space alien.

In your situation now, you will experience hopeless despair and grief indefinitely while your H cruelly carries on his affair every day and rubs your nose in it. At least in Plan B, you won't have to watch his cruelty up front and close.

ML:

For all sorts of reasons, (like not having a real possibility of intermediary and not wanting children to be used as such, business decisions to discuss), I don't think I can go totally "dark". Do you think I could still get some relief by minimizing contact to, say, once a week, and it being stricly "factual" exchange. i.e. when coming to house to see boys so that I can arrange not to be there, and business discussion delegating who will do what, and attend functions involving boys. I do need the relief right now. Since I am trying to accept that he has chosen to leave (knowing full well that should he change his mind I am willing to work on recovery), can I expect to feel a bit better by now focusing on what I now need to do to move on as if he will not choose to come back? This is what I can do. Will it be enough to give me some peace of mind, do you think, or am I really setting myself up for more pain?

Has anyone had experiences with a "modified" PLAN B such as above that gave some relief inspite of not going totally "dark"? I really hoping so.

lunamare,
I call what I am currently doing a modified Plan A, modified because I and WH live seperatly. Some would call it a modified Plan B, because we still have contact. Whatever you decide to call it, I think it is important to initially do a Plan A with yourself... a program for self-healing. When you do see your WH, be cheerful and friendly, but distant, aloof and a tiny, tiny bit disdainful and snobby.

You will see, the first weeks will be awful, but then you will start to have good days occasionally, then a little more frequently, but you'll still have incredibly dark and hopeless days, too. Then those hopeless days will become less frequent...
Then one day you will wake up and realize that you will be just fine without WH and that you are worthy of much more honor, respect, and love than you have been putting up with. You will no longer be willing to take him back at the drop of a hat, no longer willing to go back to the hell you are now living in, because you will have arrived at a safer place.

Better an end to this tyranny than tyranny with no end!

Thanks LL for being so encouraging.

Did you feel a lot of pain at the beginning, after separating, when you saw your H? Because WH has decided that he will not be coming home tonight, so, it is very recent, but I expect to be in touch with him for various reasons as I have said, and right now the thought of seeing WH, knowing that he has chosen not to stay and work on M, really really hurts. I would like it not to hurt as much when I do see him. What I am trying really hard to do is focus on how will I organize myself being by myself with the boys. There's lots to think about, and at the same time reduce the amount of energy I invest on what WH is doing, etc.,

..but what I really want to do right now is cry, let the pain out, and not think about ANYTHING just for a break.


LL, it sounds you are really doing well. It gives me hope because I know not long ago you were also at a very low point. Keep up the good work.

I wish I were already at a better place then where I am right now. According to MB principles, I don't seem to be doing what it takes to really move on and minimize the damage.

I really hope that, even though it looks like I am sitting on the "information", something will click in me that will make me do what I need to do.

I am really hoping that, like you, by not living under the same roof as WH, this will help me. My two boys need me and right now I just feel like I am not there for them.