Thanks, Mulan, for replying.

I will wait until tomorrow, and then decide. I am too broken hearted right now. I see a lot of people on the board being in much more hurtful situations, and wonder if I just need to learn how to "detach" more. Apparently, in PLAN A you shouldn't expect much from WS. WS's behaviour is very typical, and so I figured I should just learn to be more "thick-skinned".

Also, I will be talking to Steven H. tomorrow, and hopefully that will get me in a "strategy mode", if not PLAN B.

For me to feel I have tried everything, I really need to "stick it out" and see if WS really does move out. I just need to figure out a way to "separate" myself from what is happening by not being so surprised at WS behaviour, and so lessen the pain of his actions. I just don't think I am doing such a good job of this.

But you know, Mulan, I am trying to image the day WS announces he's "moving out" how I will be, seeing how I am reacting to one little confirmation of a WS "lie", and wonder if I know what I am really setting myself up for. I definitely do not walk the talk.

I am actually naively still holding on to the idea that WH will not "move out" and will reconsider working on M. Can I emotionally and psychologically take having a "dream" shattered right before my eyes? I know, some will say: it already has been! Do I really need to go through all this PAIN to learn?

I know one thing: when I get up, just the day ahead is starting to become a challenge. This is not a good sign, that I know.

Thanks for replying Owl.

quote:----------------------------------------------------
If you know that contact is still going, you should absolutely let WS know that you're aware of it, and it hurts you that they're still doing this. At least that's my take, I'm not an experienced MB'er like many here, so take my advice with that grain of salt.
-----------------------------------------------------------

To get you up to date. WS does not deny that he is in contact with OW (they work together). This time I just happen to know "when" outside of work. WS has not agreed to NC, although I have asked it.

WS one time met with OW outside of work and told me about it - trying to turn our M into a roomate situation - I was mad and upset and he knew it, and it was the one time I contacted the OW and let her know what I thought of her.

So, as a result, WS has gone "underground" to avoid my reaction: doesn't deny meeting with OW, but doesn't tell me when. WS wants to separate and move out (but hasn't yet), I don't want to separate and want to work on M. Doing my best with PLAN A in this "limbo" stage, but hard to take rejection, lack of affection, lack of support, but I am told I should not expect much from WS.

So, I don't really know if I should confront him with it or not. He knows this is hurtful behaviour on his part. I could make things easier for him and "kick him out".

If I could get out of this "mess" today, I would, but I don't want it to be "just to escape the pain". I would like to be able to say that somehow I "tried", and did not react too quickly and than regret it.

Right now, if at all possible, I still want to work on M. That may change soon.

Luna, Please tell Steve Harley exactly what you told us -- about your WH is throwing his affair right in your face and expecting you to "cooperate" -- and about how much damage this is doing to you mentally, emotionally, and physically.

Please ask him about Plan B.
Mulan

Will do Mulan. Thanks for your concern.

P.S. Right now I feel like a "walking zombie". I am putting one foot in front of the other - only because of the boys, really.

Have you explained your situation to your family doctor, and asked whether anti-depressants (or anything else) might help you right now?

I have, Mulan, thanks for checking. For now, I have meds to help with sleep and anxiety, which I don't take systematically, only when I need to. Next visit, will discuss need for Anti-D. Made it through a very difficult night.

Update.

Had my 2nd appt with SH. Suggested: if I can do it, encouraged me to let WS deal with "his moving out" and I maintain position that there is a better alternative/option to all of us being happy as a family. I need to be on guard: being around an unsafe source/insensitive WS. When opportunity given, state how I feel: scared, hurt.

When aware of contact with OW, just to state that: it hurts me / current situation is hurtful.

When asked to cooperate with move: "can't go along with that, there is a better route"

PLAN B to be considered once WS has moved out and structure of arrangements are in place: about one week later.

So, more or less, I need to be strong, need to be honest, stick with PLAN A, and let WS deal with "reality" of his choices.

So, I will definitely need to keep "busy" and will need your "shoulder" to cry on after dealing with an insensitive WS, triggers, etc., while attempting to do my best with this period.

That sounds good to me. Just get a plan in place as to *exactly* how you will handle Plan B, so that you are ready if/when it happens. That way, you can keep control over your own life and will not be left blindsided and helpless and floundering at the mercy of a very selfish WH. That's the LAST place you want to be.

Hang in there.
Mulan

Your comments please.

I think most of you are familiar with Dr. Phil. He wrote a book called: Relationship Rescue. How silly would it be for me to propose it to my WH at this point? I don't have the book, but have seem some of the exercises, where I thought we could learn about each other (if answered honestly) while at the same time give us a 'structure' to follow (to avoid blaming, angry outburst, etc). I really think, even in the fog WS, some things might come out, since these don't look like exercises that will lead us to a 'powerstruggle' but to simply state how we feel, what we expect, our values, our dreams.

He may refuse, but I feel I need to offer a way to 'reconnect' and learn about each other, maybe a plan for 2 (before he throws in the towel). The only reason he may be open to this is that WS knows we will always need to deal with each other because of co-parenting, and this at the very least, may give us a chance to 'get to know each other' regardless of what the future holds for us.

Is this too little too late?

Am I daydreaming again? MC at this point is out of the question. It would be a waste of time and money. I thought this would be less 'threatening'.

One of WS's comments that I would like to ask him to explain is that: he feared less the "unknown" than the "known".

What I figures he was saying was: 'unknown'as being the OW, on top of being adventures, does require one to look himself in the mirror, at least not right now, as would the "known" - our M. So, why do today what you can do tomorrow!

I wonder if I should interpret your 'no comments' to mean that I just 'don't get it'. That this would be a useless step now.

My suggestion is a way to get to 'discuss' with WH real issues with some structure so that we don't just end up with a bunch of LBs. I don't feel we can continue being this superficial for so long. Before, he 'moves out' I would really like to find a way without powerstruggling and LBs to learn and say things to each other honestly.

Would really like to know what I have to lose to suggest this other can be prepared for a 'no, I'd rather not waste my time with this because my decision is not to work on M, but to find a way to move on, out of M, and be with OW." Also, WS may accuse me of 'stalling' separation with this proposition.

I would like to suggest to WS, that regardless of his decision, it would be a good step to learn about each other and ourselves and both get some answers, even if in the end he decides to 'move on'.

What I don't know is the kind of answers, given A, that the process may produce re our M.

Anyway, again, would very much appreciate your comments. Even if I should already know the answers.

I would really appreciate knowing how bad of an idea this is (see above) - just looking for a tool to try to learn more about what WH and I think, etc. in a structured way, info.-only kind of setting, without judging. I am just hoping it's only because its the weekend and people are not in the board as much.

lunamare, I would avoid any and all discussions about your relationship now. It is a lovebuster to try and educate him, nor is he in a mental place where he is interested in working on your marriage. He is intent on leaving your marriage. Trying to educate him will just push him away farther.

Thanks for your reply MelodyLane,

When and how do I try and communicate with him thoughts and feelings honestly? A line here and there? For, example, when to discuss the possibility of a short family vacation? a small home project? otherwise, our M has become a shadow of what it was: superficial and functional, 'distant' with no intimacy, neither physical nor emotional, and full of lies and hypocracy with nothing to look forward to - but, put on hold indefinitely. On the other hand, A with OW can't help but continue to become more and more intimate both physical and emotionally, as a result, and obviously more and more attractive, passionate and exciting as a R probably with lots of future plans on how to enjoy each other. A total shift is happening whereby all his EN will be answered by OW. Should I not try and break cycle, triangle, somehow? To continue this way, in the end, I wouldn't blame him for wanting to leave and be with OW. There will be nothing more than some good memories of our M. Although WS has not left home yet, it already feels like 'we're history' and it's just a "matter of time".

For example, when we go to bed, would it not be possible, to have a short exchange, and be 'honest' about where each of us is? each of us is experiencing? - without judging? Even if it means hearing what I don't want to hear! But not too long - just to touch base, sort of.

Is this a need I have to 'reconnect' and would it be a LB? How else can I reduce this feeling of 'superficiality'?

THis is a strange feeling. Sharing a house with someone, but feeling lonelier than if alone. I miss my H, my shoulder to cry on, my partner. But, H is not there, WS is.
This looks to me as if I am in 'withdrawal' of H because he is not there. THis is really really tough to do. Really hard not to obsess about, which I see myself doing often.

I am having a hard time holding back. He's been away for a few days. I had to work really hard not to call him as often as I had wanted to.

Not good at being part of a 'triangle'.

Luna, I thought he was moving out?

Luna, in short, your marriage is on hold now until he ends his affair. And it doesn't sound like he will end his affair until you go into Plan B. In the meantime, having relationship talks will not help that situation, it will only hurt it. He is a detached man who is not at all committed to your marriage - he is committed to his affair. Relationship talks will only push him away.

Now, there is no reason you can't talk about a small home project, but why would you talk about a family vacation if he is moving out?

When is he moving out?

He is SUPPOSED to be moving out. Has not given me a date, but it should be some time this summer, apparently. WS may have to "surprise" me, once he has worked out the logistics. Of course, there is a problem of: finance. He will have to accept that he will be asking us to 'sacrifice' a lot in order to accomodate his 'egotistical needs/decisions'. He's just noticing that his little family will be negatively affected by his 'need' to move out. In the meantime, my position is: I don't want to separate but work on M, if and when he is willing to, and I guess my actions/propositions will reflect that. WH may say NO to any and all propositions. If he says it often enough, I will quit making any, I guess.

You see MelodyLane, I am not quite following his 'plan'. In his plan, I would sit down with him and find an amicable solution on how to run two households together. He does not intend to live with OW, not at first. He wants to be on his 'own' at great expense to our financial health. He's now working on how to make more money, I think, because otherwise we can't afford to keep our house, which he wants to for the sake of the boys,something about not disrupting them TOO much. This I think is to help with his guilt. As if their Daddy moving out isn't the biggest disruption of all.

I think WS is lost. He has a lot of 'disatisfaction' with life in general. His A with the OW to me is a way of not facing the realities of life, or the challenges of life, or the disappointments. I don't know really how to help. I believe WH is going for the short-term satisfaction of OW. Life is too short he says to see a good thing pass by. And all of us will be paying the long-term price, and WH may forever feel guilty. But, he doesn't see all this right now. He will see it probably once it's too late, maybe.

There is not much I can do, other than keep the door 'open' as long as I can.

I would like to find a way to somehow 'connect with him' at some level, inspite of the triangle, because I think this is important to both us. One of our cornerstones was our 'friendship' (which unfortunately did not help the 'romantic side' of the needs).

I am obsessing a bit right now because he will be back tomorrow night, and I am not sure how I will feel when I see him. I am almost certain (unlike before) that he has been with OW since we last saw each other Wednesday night.

Anyway, it must be my nerves. Sorry, it just helps to go on and on.

Spoke to OW's H. Continuing with separation. He confirmed that OW and WS do not intend to live together (at least not right away). WH says it's for the kids. I think WH would like to be a bachelor, and be with family/lover/etc. on his schedule. The son of a gun doesn't want to 'commit' himself totally to OW, or they will play the game of slowing building a R after both have separated, rather than as a result of both being married at the time they had A. I think this "process" has to go with some lack of committment and a lot of guilt. Anyway, I know, bla, bla, bla on my part. I told you, this post is really to just keep busy and let some time pass by. I am focusing way too much on him, I know. I will stop right now.

THanks to all for reading. Take it for what it is: talking nonsense out loud.

Or maybe he is just saying that he is going to move out so he can freely carry on his affair? That way he can drag this on forever and not have to sacrifice anything while he carries on his affair from the comforts of home?

When does Steve Harley think you should go into Plan B?

I agree with Melody. Trying to work with your WH is a waste of time right now. It's like trying to reason with a drunk. Until he sobers up, you may as well talk to the wall. He will take your overtures of "trying to connect" as permission for him to continue just the way he is, since it obviously isn't bothering you too much . . .

With as badly as this man is treating you -- throwing his affair in your face and expecting you to be cooperative and supportive of his adulterous lifestyle -- you may well need to go to Plan B earlier so that you don't wind up hating the sight of him.

It's hard to tell, but he sounds just as likely to NOT move out and drag this out for months or years instead. Why go to the trouble and expense of moving out if he can have his home life and still carry on his affair? The longer he can do this, the more comfortable he will get, and the longer his double life will go on right in your face.

I don't remember -- have you exposed this affair to family, friends and co-workers? That's a very important part of Plan A, and usually the surest way of disrupting their dirty little secret.
Mulan

Thanks for replying Mulan and Melodylane,

WH seems to have a committment with OW that he will move out. Confirmed by OW's H. Apparently though, it's not their intention for now to move in together (maybe later on). WH himself is saying that he won't continue past the summer at home. He also knows that if he chooses to stay, it would mean putting OW on 'backburner' as he puts it, and work with me on Recovery. He can drag it out a little bit, but not forever. I may be a tolerant and patient person, but I also have my limits. But I do wonder what OW thinks about him not yet moving out. WH is a real charmer, believe me. Especially if OW has fallen in love with him. I should know.

H has his qualities, or I would not stick around. Besides, what you see described on the Board is not the man I married, its WS, remember.

To answer your questions: exposed to some members of family (sister - psychologist) who encourages him to consult and/or be responsible. Co-workers are aware. Some friends are also aware and are divided in opinions. All worry about my not staying in this too long, and to not 'forget myself'.

Steven H. suggested I get in touch with him in three weeks. Plan B in principle to happen a couple of weeks after he has actually moved out (after basic arrangments are in place) as I am not 'cooperating' in his moving out. In the meantime, the objective is to be a reminder of the 'window of opportunity' of working on M and not needing to move out, which is why I sometimes type nonsense here. I am supposed to be in PLAN A, and according to Ark^^, more or less, I need to be a lighthouse and a welcome mat, among other things, all the while inside I may not be doing so great.

One thing I know I need to work on: not obsessing so much on WH, on what he is doing, on what I think he thinks, etc. I think it's my way of 'avoiding' my reality, and as one on my friends put it: 'he is taking too much of my psychological space'.

I see him wanting to control his world, but cannot calculate everyone's reaction - he was expecting an easier time with me, like: my giving him 'permission' so he could feel less guilty, so that the transmission would go smoothly with us planning his moving out. More or less, he was expecting less resistance from me: I dared to suggest that we could work on our M and make it better and that one of the conditions would be that he would have to let go of R with OW. Why should he let go of something so 'beautiful' that has come into his life? For a minute only, I actually questioned myself. I agree, you can go crazy trying to make sense of what WS say. One reply I regret not saying once, because I only thought of it later, was when WS referred to himself and OW as 'Romeo and Juliette' meaning the families, society, which one does not choose, being against them, as the story goes. I did manage to say to him: what families that we do not choose? You chose me, you chose to have kids with me, it's YOUR family. I actually should have said: so, you intend to kill yourself? When? Would this have been: Reverse bubble material?