Thanks, gray! Wow, I do love being Brilliant! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seeking, you are welcome. Your wife may well have treated you unfairly, but turning outside the marriage is the one thing guaranteed to make that marriage worse. Good luck to you.

Mulan

Thank you all for your posts so far, you have really helped me to think through some things that perhaps I haven't at least for awhile.
As I started to mention in my last post one of the things that has been difficult in my marriage is my wife has always been fairly good at getting me to adapt to what she wants. In order to please her and not make waves in the marriage I have gone along with it the best I could. I have never felt accepted, respected, or admired by her. This of course was where the OW has been making huge deposits in the Love bank. It seems as though if I were the same person areound my wife that I am around the OW that my wife wouldn't be nearly as happy with me. I am a very different person around the OW because I have the freedom to be me. That is one of the reasons I love being around the OW.

first off welcome! im gonna ask something no one has yet....exactly what and how are you different with ow. i read your last post but i want specifics if you can.....

Bummer I just answered this but lost my post again...
Here I go again.

nikko great question. A short one but really has made me think. Perhaps the biggest difference in how I am around Ow stems from the difference my wife and I have over our Christian walk. It impacts what we do, what we watch, who our friends are, ETC. When I am with the OW I do not have those same expectations, or retrictions. Her walk is more closely aligned with mine. It allows me to be me rather than pretending to be someone I am not. Does that make sense? I'll try sending this again and then will give further thought to your question..Thanks

Are you my STBXH disguised as Seeking?

I have heard every word you just wrote. And I am not dismissing it. Not at all.

It was very hard for me to hear that from WH. Harder still to look and see that there was some truth to it.

The most difficult part though was not knowing it to begin with. THIS IS JUST ME, but as I really started looking at our marriage (not the infidelity, but the marriage) I wondered at what point it became adapting to keep things easy. I felt we both compromised certain things during the marriage. I never realized there was resentment for some of it OR that some of those issues were so important. He was a conflict avoider. So, instead of letting me know what was happening in him, to him, to us, he shut down.

and so.... PRESTO.... OW comes along and they don't live together day after day and there is no combining of lifestyles or habits or quirks. How perfect and accepting she was of what he could give to her. They supported each other over the last year and some months through plenty.

BUT, it was me who he vented to after a bad day. I got the worst and what was left was the best of his moods. Of course she accepted him. But the dirtiest and lowest of what he had to offer had a recepticle. Me.

He already felt unaccepted and distant from me. Why tarnish or threaten OW with the harsher emotions and realities of himself when he could work that off on me?

I'm not saying that is the case with you. BUT I am saying that the words are identical to what I have heard. He was right in some. He did change for me. He felt unaccepted and under appreciated, not cherished. Had I known the true extent of what he was feeling I would have moved heaven and earth to at least work on it.

I didn't. I probably should have. If I knew then what I know now things may have been very different. For me. For OW. For WH.

Maybe you should try, with professional help, to let your wife know the real you. You may be surprised.

I'm pretty sure you'd be surprised at the reality of a life with you and OW.

By the way, does your wife have any idea what is going on? Have you thought about telling her and seeing what happens?

im gonna say something and its gonna sound flip but i really dont mean it that way. so read it with caution and know im really not slamming you...lol

so if i understand this right your having more fun with the ow and all it cost was giving up your morals and principals....man if i had known that all these years, just think of the fun i could have had..... just give up my core beliefs and have at it---the heck with the kids and the promises i made them by bringing them into the world, to heck with the promises and commitment i made to hubby....

do you see what im trying to say----you had those morals and peincipals once...you threw them away for someone else....never a good move.

this has nothing to do with not being as religious or christian as your wife---you threw away YOUR core values....not hers.....unless she had an shotgun under her wedding dress and forced you to say what you said....you made the commitment.....you just want to change the rules now.....

Thank you for your reply. All the things you are saying are so good for me to hear becuse you are helping me see the other side. One of the things that I think is so unfair about what I am doing is Iam not communicating with my wife about the way I truly feel. Not only about the OW but about our marriage. I'm not giving her the chance to do anything about it cause she doesn't know where Iam coming from. I owe at least that to her. No my wife has no idea about the OW. She has suspected something has been up cause I have acted different (more distant) I just have been trying harder to be my old self which then makes me want to be with the OW all the more. Incidentally just mentioning the name of the OW anytime in our past has been a real thorn in her side because she knew how strongley I felt about her before we were married.

I really see how this forum can be addicting and take you away from your work. Especially when you have to keep logging in and out to make it work. Speaking of work, Im leaving for the day now but will be back to the forum later tonight. Thanks again to all.........

Thanks for the reply. I need to hear all sides. I don't think it really is a matter of me giving up my pricipals and morals and having fun. I have been living by a set of principals that wern't mine to begin with they were my wifes. They were not MY core values. I don't think my values have changed other than having a totaly different perspective on someone who is or has had an affair...

Hi seeking. I'm finding I'm rather baffled by the above -- you're talking about alignment of Christian walks between two cheaters -- how is it even possible to talk about a cheater having a Christian walk? It seems to me that if you're honest with yourself even in the slightest degree, you have to admit that so long as you're cheating, "Christian" is the last word to describe your walk.

This is a pretty important statement. To me...probably the most important.

I understand you and your wife have a difference in religious beliefs. That can be very difficult.

However, exactly where do you think you differ in the belief of adultry, monogamy, commitment, marriage, promise, forsaking all others, honesty and integrity?

How do you see your having an affair as NOT compromising your own principles and morals?

Was your wife aware that your principles and morals did NOT include not committing adultry, monogamy, commitment, marriage, promise, forsaking all others, honesty and integrity?

This may sound like an odd question to most on this board, but let me put it to you. Does your OW understand your views on adultry, monogamy, commitment, marriage, promise, forsaking all others, honesty and integrity?

Do you (and/or) the OW see your beliefs in adultry, monogamy, commitment, marriage, promise, forsaking all others, honesty and integrity to be different depending on who you are WITH instead of who you ARE?

Just a few thoughts....

FIM

I can't speak of what OW's values ARE ... but I can tell you what she does not value.... A person cannot claim values which they are throwing away with both hands!

honesty
loyalty



These things are not things OW values. Or you either, for that matter. At least not right now.

The problem with any relationship that begins as an affair, is that in order to accomodate the affair, things important to being a good and decent person have to be cast aside.

You cannot have an affair in secret an NOT be a liar. This OW whose values you share, is a liar. She can look her family in the face and tell them things about where she was, what she is thinking, and what she did today .... and lie right to the faces of her husband and her children, and her friends, and her family, and her clergy. This shedding of her goodness is not without penalty.

You and your desire for her demand she shed her goodness in order to continue to have your needs met .... at her expense, as well as of the expense of others.

Not very romantic, is it?

You cannot have an affair an remain loyal to your vows and family. This OW whose values you share, is disloyal. She is disloyal to her vows in order to please you. This comes at a very high cost. A tarnish of her self-respect. Is that "OK" with you?

A relationship that is born of an affair BEGINS with 2 diminished people who have willingly let go some of their finer self .... in order to cheat and to lie .... and it is definitely not pretty.

There is no magic between you without some serious diminishment of character .... and this is not a good beginning for a life together.

PLEASE call Steve. You are slipping further and further from your better self. I can read all your justifications in your posts. And they all add up to this:

"Damn the cost to anyone. I want this."

But .... you are so far away from the good man you were meant to be.

Blessings and prayers to you my dear man.

Pep

thank you FIM-----so what are your core beliefs then???

I'm certainly not saying my values or beliefs are different on having an affair. I meant our differences, my wifes and mine, on how our walk impacts the things we choose to do in our daily lives. Not core value stuff, but just how we live. I think what I am doing is wrong, I think Im a terrible person for what I am doing. I just meant that the everyday things in life are more closely lined up with the OW. There have been a lot of good posts here but unfortuantely I need to go for the evening. I will be back in the morning. Thank you all for your input today.. I really really appreciate each and every post including the ones that are very difficult to read...I'll be back....

Seeking, my WW's avoidance of potentially confrontational situations frustrates me terribly.

If she had said to me, "Darlin', I love you more than my luggage (that one belongs to Kimmy), but the following things you do, and the following dynamics in our M, are really not working for me. Please let's change them. It's really important." If that had happened, things could have been different. Shoot, seeking, you're a man! Tackle these problems like a man. Give your wife some credit, and in the most loving way possible, tell her about them. I bet you anything she's not just some scripture-recitin' bible beater. I bet she wants to make you happy. You just won't let her because this life-long fantasy has made you a mental patient.

GC

I put these two quotes together because, IMO as an outsider, you are having a very hard time reconciling what you are doing. You most certainly ARE giving up your principls and morals. You would not feel like you were "doing wrong" or a "horrible person".

I'm not living your life and don't know you from Adam, but my guess would be that somewhere along the way it may have been YOU who redefined your set of principals to suit your need to justify the affair. Look closely at these two statements. To me, again as an outsider, I see huge gigantic [color:"red"] RED FLAGS [/color] that indicate some fast talking going on inside your head.

A quote from Surviving an Affair that is SO very true in many cases I have seen and lived through:

"The truth is that infidelity doesn't necessarily develop out of a bankrupt system of moral values. Instead, personal values change to accommodate the affair. What had been inconceivable prior to an affair can actually seem reasonable and even morally right after an affair. Many people who have always believed in being faithful in marriage find that their values do not protect them when they are faced with the temptation of an affair."

In your first quote, Seeking, you specifically stated your CORE values were different. In the second, you said you weren't speaking of your CORE values at all.

Understand, I am not trying to litigate here and be nit-picky on every word you write. Rather, I'm pointing out something that looks to me a lot like justification and even backpeddaling.

Your statements seem to contradict each other. That's common when wrestling with your own demons in infidelity.

You can not be abiding by your own set of principals and values while doing the single most hurtful thing to the woman who looks to you as her husband each day.

If you feel terrible, if you feel guilty, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to stop this affair which is hurting every single person you care for. There is nothing loving or caring about an affair. Not a single aspect of it.

Anyway, my long winded point was that saying you are not giving up your morals and values to have fun because they weren't YOUR values anyway is hogwash.

It's a way to justify what you're doing. Saying after the fact that you feel terrible is a cop out.

I feel terrible when I forget to send a thank you card. Know what? I send one to make up for it and don't do it again.

If you think you're a terrible person for the A, stand up and do something about it. You make a very deliberate choice each and every time you talk to, email, see and even think about OW. It is a choice. It hurts.

Stop. Saying your terrible or feel guilty is to make YOU feel better. I doesn't do anyone else a damn bit of good.

"See!!!! I feel bad about it!!!! I chose to give up my own personal values and morals. But I feel bad about it!!!!!"

I do not say this to be mean. But think about it. You have taken a HUGE step by being here. I applaud you for that. Your journey may very well help more people than you know. I don't know that I could put myself out there as you are.

Take some of that strength and courage along with the energy you give to the adultry and save your marriage.

Then, stand up and say "I DID IT!!!!!!!!!"

FIM

Thank you faithinme, your posts are always so thought provoking.
Let me try to say again what I think I was trying to say;
First I'm not sure my values have changed. I still think what I'm doing is wrong. I'm just not doing what I know is right. If my values had changed then I would think what I'm doing is ok. An example is while we still have not had sex, I know if given the opportuinity I would. It's not that I would and think that's ok. I would and know that what I'm doing is wrong, very wrong. Each and everyday we make choices that are sometimes not what we think is right to do but we choose to go against what we know is right and choose to disobey the law or sin, ETC. What I was trying to say in the previous post about the difference in our Christian walk, was how it impacted our choices of what we do..Ex: movies we watch, music we listen to, friends we choose, places we go. What I was saying is all these choices were based on her set of choices not mine. With the OW it is a different set of choices and all I was saying is her choices are more closely matched to what my choices would be if I were on my own and not married to my wife. Am I making any sense here?? I think the important core value stuff is similar between all three of us. We all think an affair is wrong, and everything assosiated with it, dishonesty, cheating, ETC. That's why we the OW and I feel so bad. Obviously not bad enough. It doesn't mean our values changed it means we are willing to do things we never dreamed we would do when we placed ourselves in this position. Again I sincerely appreciate your post and all the others for that fact. I really truly am trying to get a handle on what I have done and where to go from here. Everyday I try to sort all this out in my head so it is wonderful to have all of you to help me get back on track.
I'll be back......

"It's more than an emotional affair but not quite a physical one, (no sex..one of her coping mechanisms).
We see each other about once a month for only one day at a time. Talk once a week and email several times a day. We both feel tremendous guilt, although I think it is harder on her than me."


Hello Seeking.

You say it isn't physical with this high school 'sweetheart'.

Are you thinking that just because you haven't had sexual intercourse, that all the other sexual activity doesn't count? Or are you saying there is no other sexual activity? (Such as touching intimately, kissing, perhaps even O sex.)

You say you have been with her every week for 3 years.
Does that mean you have been together over 150 times?
(Maybe you said 4 years, I forget, so that would be 200 times.) I find NO SEX amazingly hard to comprehend if you two are IN LOVE!

What is your definition of 'physical'?

What do you mean one of HER coping mechanisms is not
'going all the way'?

I am asking these questions so you can examine your own thoughts. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.
They are personal, yet it helps us understand a little better your relationship with this OW and what keeps you going back for more all these years!

Sincerely, Julie

oh seeking---ther is gonna come a day when you are gonna be faced with some really harsh realities...let me show you one...you said,"if my values had changed then i would think what im doing is ok. an example is while we have still not had sex, i know if given the opportunity i would."
there is going to come a time when this all comes out...and it will...it always does....that you are going to be questioned by your wife...she will be shaking and crying and something in her will be forever broken.....and she will ask you if you new what you were doing? why did you do this? did you KNOW it was wrong? when you got to the point when you realized it was wrong and you felt guilt...then why did you go through with it?????

now envision yourself, standing there in utter shock at what you've done to her and your family....and picture yourself saying to her---yes i knew it was wrong, yes i knew it would destroy you, but i did it anyway because what i wanted was more important!!! my feelings came first and i didnt care!!
if you continue this will be your only answer....i was selfish and didnt give a damn about you or your feelings. you are at this crossroads and what you do now will determine how you will be able to answer those questions. there are tons of people who would give anything to be where you are----before the choice, at the crossroads....they would give anything to choose over again....choose wisely my friend....none of us own a time machine.....

and yes----my husband had to tell me those very words...when he realized that was the answer----it just about killed him......

Of course your values have changed drastically.

Values are what we live every day, how we live our lives. No one has to ask what our values are and they do not need to be stated, because people can see them just by looking at how we live.

Ideals are something else entirely. Those are things we would like to be true about ourselves, and maybe even claim are true, but aren't how we actually live.

Ideals are something that we use a lot in our society to support the "I'm a good person" pretense, even when it's clearly not true. Our society tends to reward a certain amount of lip-service to various ideals, even if there is no connection to the person's actual values. And ideals are a favorite tool of a person who wants the rewards of having certain values without the actual bother of living those values.

Yes, your values have changed drasically. You've thrown them away in favor of a hollow shell you pay lip-service to. So has the other woman.

Seeking,

You aren't a terrible person, but you are one f****d up guy. You have left your brain somewhere on a sidewalk. Go look for it.

You sound like a really bad soap opera...if you are into oldies, your 'saga' is straight from 'Now Voyager' with Bette Davis, and equally full of melodramatic hogwash..."Two people kept apart by circumstances beyond their control, unable to consummate the true love between them..." What b*llsh*t...

OW doesn't know you better than W. You are spending much, much more time with W than OW, and your W sees you and talks to you every day. So, guess what? W sees you for who *YOU* are, OW is seeing the part of you that you project to her. And, by the way, the reverse is true...you are seeing the part of OW that she lets you see.

Is "who you are" with OW real? Yes, but it isn't the "whole you"...you have neatly kept away from OW those parts of you that aren't pretty. And, conversley, your W isn't seeing the part of you that you are sharing with OW. (You complain that your W doesn't know you, but you are the one who doesn't let her see the way you are. Tell her.)

OW and you aren't "soulmates"--you don't even know each other. You haven't met her friends, her family, and she hasn't met yours. You and she haven't interacted as a couple in "the real world"--the only thing you do is get together and shack up (either physically or emotionally) for a few hours a week.

You say that you are "chaste" in this relationship with OW in that you don't have sex with your W or OW. News flash: most people have sex at least once a week. Most likely, OW is one of those people.

Is your M destined to be a success? I don't know--maybe, maybe not. (I can guarantee that OW isn't--one year with her and you'll be running for the hills.) The problem is that you aren't even trying with your M. You have neatly divided your life into 2 parts--OW gets the romance and the love letters, W gets the daily grind.

You should cut it off with OW (oh, the agony...) and start working on the M, giving the M 100% of your time and energy.