Julie I'll try to answer your questions.
First we see each other about once a month or every six weeks not once a week. Yes we are fooling around beyond kissing Not a lot but certainly enough to make this a PA. No intercourse or OS but it has gone some beyond kissing. What I meant by not having SI is one of her coping mechanisms is I think she can justify in her own mind that it's at least not adultry...What keeps me going back is not the physical. If that were all there was I would have left a long time ago, cause there ain't very much. It's I truly love and care for this person...Yes I love being with her and the way she makes me feel but it goes beyond that. It really does but I'm not sure any here will believe that. I get the sense that no matter what I say the fact remains I'm in the fog and no matter what happens this realtionship is flawed and we could never be happy with each other.

Thank you Nikko, I needed to hear this. Especially when you said "there are tons of people who would give anything to be where you are----before the choice, at the crossroads....they would give anything to choose over again....choose wisely my friend....none of us own a time machine....." a GOOD PERSPECTIVE. Thank you.

seeking....humor me with this.....describe your perfect woman for me......and no i dont mean physically describe ow...

Jimmy Mac..Ouch! I agree with some of what you are saying but not all of it. I do worry that the way in which we see each other is not the real world. I try to project everything I know about our relationship into a real world setting but as you know until your there, there who knows? Why are you so sure that after a year with the OW in ther real world I would be running for the hills? Is it not possible that we could have a wonderful relationship together. One more compatible, then we have now?? Is it becuase we have had this affair that makes it impossible for us to truly love and care for each
other in the future??

I have worked on my marriage, for over thirty two years.
There comes a point where it just seems easier to give up.
I know that's wrong, and deep down in I don't want to do that...

seeking---if you really are done....then do the honorable thing and divorce her first!!!!! then go on and have your happy life. if youve done it all, then ok....but divorce your WIFE first....then move on!!! dont start a new life before finishing the one you have now.

nikko..very interesting. Are you trying to trap me in something? This could be a long and complex answer but I think the most important thing about a perfect woman would be one that accepts me for who I am and doesn't have to change me into something they want me to be....

Seeking...sorry about my Math!

Actually, in MHO, adultery is being unfaithful to our spouses, including passionate kisses.

I remember ole Bill C. thought it wasn't SEX unless it was the 'actual thing'. (I'll admit I thought the same when I was in high school!)

You are getting good advice, Jimmy Mac's was exceptional.

The thing is, the only FAIR thing to do would be to tell your wife.

Some of us that found out that our H's were having an affair, turned ourselves around and became the best we could be ourselves. Including Sexual Goddesses!~lol~

It just isn't fair to your W to not give her a fighting chance. She doesn't know what is going on with you and this OW...What is troubling your heart.
Wouldn't YOU be surprise if SHE were seeing someone on the side?

Sincerely, Julie Jo

Seeking----Don't be fooled into thinking what you and OW are doing is NOT adultery. It absolutely is. You are having a relationship with a woman who is NOT your wife! Do you think your wife will be less hurt by your years of lies, loving and fooling around with OW to the point of divorce because you didn't go "all the way"? Especially when you say you would given any opportunity. OW is in huge denial as well if she thinks what is going on is not committing adultery. Coveting is adultery.

You are right in thinking you have not given wife a chance to change and be happy with you. You have not been honest with her about your feelings. Yare selling her short by not giving her a clue about what you want and thinking only OW can be "aligned" with your walk.

I bet your wife would want this too! She wants a closely connected, fulfilling relationship with you too. Before you continue on with your cruel treatment of you wife. Give her the opportunity to participate in your marriage with you present in it! You are not emotionally participating in your marriage and haven't been since OW. You might find that there is more to your wife than she has shared with you as well......maybe something you could love again.

Give her a chance. Respect her. She deserves that. She may choose to let you go after what you have done. But I bet she would stay and see if you both could work it out and be happy. I bet she would at least TRY. Can you?

Seeking:

You said, "Yes I love being with her and the way she makes me feel but it goes beyond that. It really does but I'm not sure any here will believe that."

I *absolutely, 100%* believe you. I was involved in a long term PA (we didn't stop with groping). So, I know exactly what you are talking about.

You are in love with someone who doesn't exist. When you are around her, you are on your "best behavior"--you are the nicest you can be. And she is the same with you. But, that isn't the way you are *all the time*. You are grumpy, angry, and irrational at times--like we all are. Yet, she doesn't see you like that, and you don't see her like that. You see her only when she is kind and understanding, not mean and demanding.

The world you have with OW is pretend--there are no bills to pay, no mortgage payments, no yards to mow, no dinner to fix, no 'nagging' relatives to deal with...

An example: Has she ever seen you with the stomach flu? Why not? Because you are (unintentionally) hiding the worst parts of your life from her. And this is not just for physical ailments, but for psychological ailments as well.

As to OW, think about her a little without the blinders on--she is involved with a married man, but only sees him once a month and engages in a little "touchy feely" with him. What kind of person does that? She "loves you" but not enough to have sex with you? Isn't that a little strange? What "game" is she playing with her boyfriend or H when she isn't with you?

(IMHO she either: (A) has an STD or (B) gets "warmed up" with you and then goes somewhere else for sex.)

Of course, you have rationalizations for why this all perfectly normal. Try to be objective (and I know it is very, very hard)...look at the *entire* relationship and how many constructs you have to keep the relationship afloat.

I am *NOT* saying that your M is going to work out. You have a right to expect to have a rich, fulfilling M. But, you have not given your M or your W a chance.

Juile I know you are right and I know the only way to truly restore my marriage is to tell my wife all. If I were to succesfully have NC I know still my marriage could never be what it could be if I held this huge secret inside the rest of our lives. Yet I can't bring myself to do this. One, the obvious I don't want to end the affair. Two and I know this sounds stupid considering what I am doing but I can't bear the thought of hurting her this much. I feel sometimes I'm caught with my feet planted firmily in mid air. I'm too weak to end the affair cause I love the OW so much, and I'm too weak to be truthful with my wife and hurt her so much.
Maybe Jimmy Mac is right and I'm just really screwed up......

Trust me, seeking, you are really, really screwed up. (I was the poster child for being screwed up.) You have got two women, and neither one of them *KNOWS YOU*. How many lies do you have to juggle in a day? It would get anyone confused.

You don't have to tell your W now. Do this one step at a time. Go to a counselor (your work insurance will cover it) and start talking to him/her about it. Break it off with OW. And then, work on your M.

From experience, I can tell if your W is a good and caring person (like you are), you and she can have a fantastic M.

Seeking,

Some things you said, no excuse me, make that almost everything you said, really stuck out for me & were me & my husband a little over a year ago. My H went along in our M with your thoughts. Our M was ok for him, not the entire M, but the last few years or so. We had fought a lot there for a while, but when things slowed down & we were actually getting along, he thought, No fighting, no problems. But inside, he felt isolated. He didn’t feel close to me anymore. He was slowing losing his love for me, little bits at a time. The way I would criticize him, put him down sometimes (yes, I hate to admit it). When we first started dating, he was a sort of “rebel”. I was a ‘good girl”. We were typical opposites. Maybe that’s what attracted us to each other in the first place. I don’t know. But, slowly, little by little, he was changing things about himself to suit me I didn’t even realize it. Maybe I wasn’t paying attention. But soon the rebel in him turned into my “ideal” husband. What he was doing was changing things about himself that he thought I didn’t like. From hearing different comments I had made or different beliefs I had, he was changing things within himself to suit that. He wanted to “make me happy”. And it was working. As long as he made these changes, we weren’t fighting. He thought the M was good. But he still wasn’t happy inside. He wasn’t happy with the person he was becoming. Pretty soon, he didn’t even recognize who he was anymore. He kept thinking to himself, Who is this person? I don’t know him!

Me, being totally oblivious, in my own little world, didn’t even take notice that he wasn’t happy. He had been mniserable for a long time & I didn’t take notice. I thought things were great. He didn’t. He wanted out. He soon started looking on date websites, putting himself as separated to find things he had in common with other people. Things that he tried to share with me, yet I didn’t want to share it. He loved shooting, I hated guns. He liked going out & enjoying himself sometimes, I was a homebody. We were so very different. He started to feel that we would never be able to make our M work b/c we were so different. He met someone where he was working & they started talking to each other about how miserable they both were in their M’s. Pretty soon they started caling each other, seeing each other & it got to be a very deep EA.

He started to w/draw from me, not giving me as many hugs, kisses, etc. And I am a touch person. When he started to w/draw his touch, I felt something was wrong. I couldn’t put my finger on it though b/c everytime I would ask him if he was happy, he would tell me, I’ll let you know when I’m not. Well, he didn’t. One day he said he wanted out & left. We were separated for 4 months. In the meantime, he was enjoying his time with this OW he had met, giving her all the things that I was craving from him. He w/drew it from me & gave it to her b/c he felt that she was the one that he was “supposed to” be with, not me.

See Seeking, this is exactly what you’re doing. What you are supposed to be giving to your W, your full self, you are giving to another. How can your W know there is a problem & that you aren’t happy w/things in the M if you aren’t honest w/her & confront her w/all of it? She is in this M too. As you said, she is giving her all to this M, being dedicated & you are w/drawing from her. You aren’t happy inside w/who you are when you’re with your W, but is it fair to give that to someone else instead of the person that you made vows to?

I know you feel “drawn” to this OW, that she is the one you’re supposed to be with, but so did my H. My question to you is, how do you know your W isn’t the one you definitely are supposed to be with when you haven’t given her a chance? With this OW in the picture, your W will never have the opportunity to help fix whatever you feel is wrong. Don’t get me wrong. You also need to make some changes. For one, you need to come clean to your W. She has a right to know that her H isn’t happy. You are giving her a charade of yourself & that is definitely not fair to her nor to you.

Seeking, what drew you to your W to begin with? You say that you left OW way back when. Why? There were 32 years of M. Not all of that could have been bad. Is it that you two focused your energy on the children & not each other? Many years of that happening can make a M become sour very quickly after the kids are grown. Then, what basis do they have for staying together? It sounds like this is where your M is at right now.

Like I said, my H could have written your story & what he discovered after giving up this OW & concentrating fully on this M (reluctantly I might add), we have both discovered each other again & have gotten the love back that was lost & now he does have that desire to make his M work no matter what. What he needed to do was be completely honest w/me, with himself & his children.

Seeking, you made a vow to your W – for better or for WORSE. This is definitely one of the worst times in your life. Now, you have to decide for yourself. Do you want to be a man of integrity & honesty or do you want to continue living a lie & damaging your self-worth? I know this is eating at you & I do hope that you can make the right decision, not only for your own sake, but also for the OW as well.

Seeking, yes, the reason it can't work out between you and OW is because it's an affair. You can't create anything good out of it. The human cost is too great. You blew it. It's blown. It can't turn from an affair into a non-affair. It's a bell. It's been rung.

Maybe you and OW are more compatible with each other than with your spouses. So?

GC

Seeking?

PLEASE go to the Just Found Out... forum and find the thread I started and read repeatedly...Cruz and I have been YOU!!!! It may not be soon, but one of you WILL cheat on the other if you get together!!! TRY and make it work and break ALL contact with your OW! If, after you have REALLY tried to make your marriage work, leave your wife becasue you don't want to be married to her, DON'T leave because you have found someone "new".

I am hoping and praying my WW and I can salvage our marriage, she is a WONDERFUL woman with a HUGE problem.

You CANNOT IMAGINE how tough your life will be...

NC you OW NOW and REALLY try to work things out!!!

IFV

Standing together thank you so much for your very thoughtful post. Yes there seems to be a lot of similarites. I think you are right too that for so many years our lives were focused on our four kids and all the business that is associated with that. When that was all done I kind of looked at my wife and said what is there here really???
The common thread I am seeing in all these posts is I am not giving my wife a chance. I agree. I also agree it's not fair. I knew coming here I would here this kind of stuff and I guess deep down in I needed to hear it. All of you have motivated me to think long and hard about what I am doing. Am I ready right this moment to have NC? No, but I think I am closer to it then I was a day ago......

Seeking,

Another thought for you - In Dr. Harley's book "His Needs Her Needs" - there's an entire chapter devoted to whether or not to tell your spouse. Reading that is a safe way for you to get more information as you ponder your choices.

My husband found HNHN in the doctors waiting room one day. He skimmed it, came home & ordered 2 books - one for each of us.


After he read the book, he decided he HAD to tell me about his affair. I'm so glad he did. Of course to begin with it was extraordinarily painful - but if he hadn't told me, I wouldn't have taken a good hard look at myself and made the changes necessary in me to have a great marriage.

I really think your wife deserves the same chance. She may not want to be married to you afterall - which could set you free for your OW (assuming her marriage disolves too). Point is - you're robbing her of the chance to make important choices for you, her and your children. It really isn't fair for you to be holding all the cards.

Another separate thought - Have you considered inviting OW to post here too? She could benefit from this site same as you! Think about it!

Lucky 12 I have read a lot here about His needs Her needs but have not actually read the entire book. Thanks for the suggestion. I will get and read with interest. Your last statement of your post really made me stop and think. You asked if I had considered telling OW about MB and allow her to gain all the good insight I am. Wow...my initial reaction surprised myself. I'm being 100% honest here and I'll probably regret saying this but I wouldn't want her to be here cause she would read all this stuff and then want NC. How selfish is that of me? I guess it shows just how self centered I have become. If I truly love the OW wouldn't I want her to read this and make up her own mind? Yikes...I guess maybe I like holding all the cards and I never realized that. I have to think about this. I don't like what I am seeing in myself.......

I don't get some of this...

you say you have lurked for a year...and you start a post with these elementary issues...
which in the past year have been said before..
if you have lurked you have read them

the real issue is that your actions of infidelity makes you the man the able to choose to be the person who inflicts great pain and crisis on to your spouse...

it has become you..

inspite of your feelings about any of this...
this is the concrete in action route you take...

and the question is when are you going to stop being that person that inflicts that pain on innocent people...

cause you sure got the justifications down pact...

what if I don't love my wife.
what if it hurts to lose the OW..
what if
what if
what if...

if you been here a year..you've read them all...

all in the name of rationalizing who and what you are and what you do...

you are me...and you are us...and all of us are defined by our actions...
and when our actions are in direct conflict of what we value..

love, respect, truth, honesty etc..
then we can not just give lipservice to value those things...
but we must live them...

the ow is the easist one to turn to..
she is the mirror image of yourself..
together you aviod, deny, justify and rationalize all your actions...to avoid the truth of who each of has become...

and that is the man that chooses day after day to harm your spouse....

lurked a year..
you know the answers...which is not to jump to saving your marriage...your so far off in the ditch on that I can't imagine there is any daylight shining down there...
but the real decision
is when you connect back to being a man of honor..
no matter the end choice..
the time is now to choose...

to stop your participation of disrespecting yourself
the ow
and your wife....

the choice is far from saving this marriage...cause your wife has a say in that as well...
and you keep from her the one thing that can crush our spirits

the right to make an informed decision....
you and the OW have access to ALL the information and use it against her..

you two have through your actions made her the enemy...and she doesn't even know...

lurked a year...
yet somehow all the betrayed spouses pain and sorrow doesn't apply to you and your wife...

you stand at great risk to harm your children..the beings you should protect most from all the unavoidable chaos in this world....
and yet you bring heartbreak to their beds at night..to haunt them....

parents jobs are to protect their children from this type of thing...
do you really want to visit them on holidays..
are they so burdonsome that seeing them twice a months sounds good to you...

want to teach them that when mom doesn't make you happy you go out and find a 'new mom' ...

but you've heard me say all this before...so nothing new here....

it is the nature of the beast you create...

and bad bad bad idea to invite the OW to post here as well..if she finds this place so be it..but to use this forum as contact when you say enough is enough and go no contact....
not fair to the meaning of this board.....

ARK^^

That was a great post, Ark! You are so right about the first step is Seeking becoming a man of honor. The choices will be much clearer for him if he can be that man.

Lots of "course altering" insights.....if they are taken to heart.

So glad you are here. Keep reading and following the plan. It is painful for the BS and never goes away. The old marriage is over. You are starting a new one with your wife, so start dating her. Don't have time, but don't beat yourself up. It happens and recovery can be beautiful-we're over 4 years out, and my FWS is a good guy.