Kayla, You said:

It's not fear that keeps you together - you have to know that deep down it's fear that keeps you from giving in to the love you feel for Dewt.

Y'know, people compliment me on my writing all the time. Then, just when I'm starting to get swelled head, someone comes along and says, in about a dozen words, that which would take me a dozen pages to convey. Thanks for putting this concept into a succinct form for me.

{{{Dylan}}}, thanks for posting. I have a reply in formulation for you, but no time to put it up yet. Thank you for being so honest and open with your feelings.

dewt

I didn't say I didn't see any crisis... It seems to me that you've tied these two issues together. I see the issues of infidelity and your questions about your sexuality to be entirely different issues. Yes, they did come together and interact but that doesn't mean they are inextricably tied.

I can certainly understand your crisis in terms of seeing yourself as a WS. I've been there, and I know how crushing and overwhelming the shame is. Words do not suffice. And I can't help but think how much worse it must be for you. You who have always been on the highest pedestal when it comes to your honor and integrity. Often enough, you've complained of being on this pedestal, but I think you held yourself up there just as much as anyone else did. And because of that, I can only imagine how horrifying this fall must have been for you.

All that I can say is that as far as I know, the only way to deal with this pain is to face it head on. Own it. Own up to it. Accept that you've earned it and use it as a catalyst to effect personal change. What you are feeling now can be a powerful motivator to never have to go through this again.

I still regret the affair that I had in '99, but I've accepted it into my world of experience and the lessons I learned then have profoundly changed me forever. I look back with a sense of regret, but also a sense of gratitude that I'm no longer that person and the shame that was there then is not there now because I'm no longer that person.


Here's what I mean. I read this paragraph and it's unclear what you are refering to. Your infidelity? Or your expanded view of your sexuality? I guess where I have my problem seeing the crisis is explained best by the above paragraph. I can see you using the exact above words to describe your affair, but not your sexuality.


Well, I know this feeling. Why don't you just post what you post and if there's anybody who feels they really need their point addressed, they can remind you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Everybody has their limitations and I'll attest to everyone here that you have an EXTREMELY heavy schedule. (paystubs)

Ok, now onto the meat of my response. I'm writing this for me, simply to share my thoughts. You may respond/not respond without worry.


Yes. And I agree with all of them. It's a force that I'm constantly aware of and is the core motivator behind my efforts... that and my desire to give Mini a successful, whole family.


The connection we have is to me a rare and precious gift. You know I have a long list of girlfriends. Never, ever, ever, have I ever, ever had a connection with anyone like the one I have with you.

I am desperately afraid of losing that. I am desperately afraid of trying to rebuild my life with another person and always feeling incomplete in my relationship because that connection is not there.


No-one, not even my mother, has ever made me feel as safe and protected as you. I say this even now, after everything that has happened. You are my ultimate refuge from the world and right now my life is filled with fear because that refuge is not available to me. I am terrified that it never will be again.


Yep. I fear this too.


Well, the boat is capsized and has been sinking for some time. It needs a little rocking. For too long, fear of rocking the boat has made us enablers. The boat needs a complete overhaul.

fear that making a statement along the lines of "Dewt, I love you ut I want to date girls" would lead to a breakdown of all that is positive....the fear that everythign would get 'ugly'...fear that my young son would again be heard spouting homophobic slurs...

I'm unsure how to respond to this one... maybe we could flesh it out a bit more. Like, what specifically does, "I want to date girls," mean? There's a big difference between 'I want to date girls,' and 'I don't want to date men.' "I love you, but..." is inevitably the beginning of an extremely contradictory phrase. I never want things to get ugly and never want to hear my son expelling ANY kind of racial/homophobic/prejudicial slurs.


Like when you have an affair? I don't know what you mean here.


This is exactly what is happening to me right now. Despite my pain and my doubts, fear of the consequences of 'giving up' is forcing me to go on. I know that's not what you meant... but I'd ask you to change your perception for a moment and envision a set of consequences that have an attraction to you. What actions would lead to those consequences?


Would never hate you based on your sexual orientation. Ain't gonna happen.


That's because you think they are 'sexual' urges. If we get as far as marriage counselling, I'm really hoping that this is one issue we can really learn to understand each other on.


(paystub) We both have been running full steam ahead for so long, and our efforts have been so ineffective... I can understand why you would feel this way and wanna take the opportunity to tell you that I really would like a future with you that does not involve this feeling.


Fair enough, but I never considered what I considered to be 'childhood experimenting' to be a solid indicator of your overall sexuality. I still don't. From what I've read, most people have their first sexual experiences with members of their own sex. But to go from that to a complete breakdown of everything does not make a lot of sense to me.

Thanks for letting me ramble.

ttfn,

John

Dylan, there is a precident for women who have been wounded by men - fathers, brothers, teachers, other authority figures, boyfriends, husbands, to become attracted to females. The tragedy is that some homosexual women prey on wounded women to "convert" them, rather than help them discover their latent sexual preferences. It's kind of like the affair fog, in that respect.

I know a woman who has become militantly same-sex oriented. Her situation involved a husband who murdered the doctor who performed a hysterectomy against HIS will, and murdered a nurse as well in the process, all because he he felt the doctor had imposed on HIS right to control his PROPERTY. He freaked out when she cut her hair against his will. She will not acknowledge that her lesbian relationship has anything to do with this abuse - but she was definitely hetero when she married him...

I'm not saying that this is the case in EVERY case. But I'd get away from any influence in that regard and work with a therapist who doesn't have an agenda - only to help you sort out what are real feelings, and what are induced feelings. You are vulnerable and confused right now. If you have elements such as an abusive or unfaithful father, (and I know that Dewt hasn't been a safe male for you many times), they play a part in the feelings you have now.

Some day, with help, you will be able to look at things clearly.

Uhmmm. I'm not sure that that's necessarily a helpful example, KaylaAndy. I do feel great compassion for your acquaintance, but to say that her choice of a lesbian relationship is solely due to her abusive relationship with a violent and disturbed man is probably simplistic... and an extreme case. In addition, saying that she was "definitely hetero" when she got married says only that she looked straight on the outside. I suspect that the world may have looked very different internally.

Dewt, I need ya to go back to Listening 101 for a minute, ok? Dylan wasn't asking how YOU feel about things. She was talking about how she feels.

So talk to her about how she feels, eh? Understand it. Get in tune with it. If you don't understand, ask for expansion/explanation/examples, but don't say, "Gee, that's not how I feel at all!" Err, we know that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You talk about your feelings alla time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dylan, sweetie, even if Dewt is being a man-thang and wandering around bumping into walls at the moment, he -will- get it eventually. Promise. He has great potential.

And... I get it. Completely. It's not about whether anyone else accepts you for who you are, hm? It's about how YOU feel about who you are.

Self-loathing, anger, fear, rage, horror... I completely get it. It's an incredible dislocation. Oh my god. I'm not who I thought I was.

I didn't finish my own story. Even though my ex and I were happy (blissfully so) for that first year, I had this incredible sense of dislocation. "Who am I? What have I become? Is there something wrong with me? I don't understand..."

When you add the shame and humiliation of an affair, it must become nearly unbearable.

I'd suggest that you choose a safe space and journal about it. Online, here or elsewhere, in a notebook, wherever. I do think you could use someone who can listen and understand without judging -- and someone who can be an advocate for you, for Dewt, for mini, and for your marriage. Tall order, that.

And you can always call me if you need to talk. You've got my number.

Dewt, I need ya to go back to Listening 101 for a minute, ok? Dylan wasn't asking how YOU feel about things. She was talking about how she feels.

Of course, you are right. I could definitely benefit from a crash course in listening. And believe me... I DO want to learn. I remember distinctly reading in one of Dylan's post about the 'why' of the affair and part of it was that she'd always felt undervalued and not listened to. Considering the actual depths of my feelings for her, it's insane that she should feel that way. I sincerely wish to learn the skills necessary so that I can meet those needs of hers far more effectively. I really do love her and really do care how she feels.

You talk about your feelings alla time.

Ya. I know. I gotta do something with them though. I really do... I don't have clearance for the PP board and of the very few I'd trust with my 'stuff' there's no-one I know IRL who can really relate. I'm afraid-ish to post cause I want this to stay positive and productive... I don't know what to do, because I want to be heard too.

Dylan, sweetie, even if Dewt is being a man-thang and wandering around bumping into walls at the moment, he -will- get it eventually. Promise. He has great potential.

Thank you so much for this.

dewt

Crash course in listening.... hmmm. Okay. Two assignments:

1. Go get Harville Hendrix's book. In the back, there's a fabulous exercise for learning to listen and get your emotions out of the way of what the other person is saying.

2. Watch three episodes of Oprah. Take notes (and post them here) on how she keeps the conversation going, the kinds of questions she asks, when and how she inserts her own experiences, and how she uses eye contact and body language to indicate her attention.

It's totally fine to talk about your feelings. You've got many outlets for it here. Just don't talk OVER Dylan, which is what got my attention here.

And you're welcome. You do have great potential. It's going to take a while to scrub the layers off, but we'll get ya nice and shiny. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (Why do I suddenly feel like I'm in a peculiar production of My Fair Lady?)

I will check out the local bookstore today... Harville Hendrix... what's the Title?

Can't watch Oprah as we don't have cable. I'll ask my neighbours to tape it for me... lol... that'll be fun. Flylady Dad goes to ask the manly sportsman next door to tape Oprah for him. LOL!!! I'm sooooo bringing my son!

It's going to take a while to scrub the layers off, but we'll get ya nice and shiny.

Like my sinks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

John

just wanted to stop by and say I to ya dewt.

So hiya! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hey!

J

Getting the Love You Want: A Guide For Couples. Here's the Amazon link.

Thank you. I have no way of getting anything through amazon, but I will walk down to the local bookstore today.

J