I whole heartedly second this.

There was something you said earlier about your wife not being the woman you wanted to marry, not being who you thought she was when you married her.

I have to think that 9/10's of the married population are faced with this once the dopamine levels drop back to normal.

There is a popular song by Sheryl Crow which goes something like this - "it's not about having what you want, it's about wanting what you have" A lesson for us all. When I look at my life and the person I chose to love, it is unrecognizable from what I wanted for myself. But it's what I chose so I will carry on, enjoying what is enjoyable about it anyway. Loving and accepting those in my life as they are, and trying to change the things about myself which could in turn give them what they need to become as much as they can become.

"Bloom where you are planted", as an air force brat, I heard this often from my mom.

AD - thank you for replying on my thread regarding my niece. You have good common sense and are sensitive to others feelings. That's a good combination.

Good luck, and still rooting for you and your wife.

AD:

Shoot some more. Work issues continue.

...

-ol' 2long

I guess all that remains 2 be said is that I agree with the 2 of you: Making changes 2 yourself 2 please your spouse (really 2 be your best self, which SHOULD please your spouse because it's not pretending) is an act of REMOVING the mask metaphored in the article. And the hope is that the recipient of this behavior modification will like it and remove their own.

People having affairs are pretending up the wazoo (does anyone know where our wazoos reside? Or is that one of those things, like laps, that goes away when we stand up or something?). They're wearing masks that hide what they're really doing. If they've constructed an efficaceous mask, it's fooled the BS in2 believing that stuff is okay. But it's still a mask, and should be jettisoned (a point made up front in that article, for those that can't make it 2 the end! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

In some regards, I think the mask metaphor also applies 2 the social adaptation question. Same answer: My best me doesn't wear a mask for anyone - society or whatever. WYSIWYG. No strain of pretense.

-ol' 2long

I should ad, AD ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), that I 2 sense an undercurrent of compassion for your W in every posted update in the past several whenevers.

You can love her whether you're married 2 her or not. But working 2 save this M (through actions, you don't need 2 tell her that is your specific intent - she might not appreciate it at this point) might just 2rn out 2 provide the growth impetus you 2th need - and might just save your M and family a lot of heartache in years 2 come.

best,
-ol' 2long

2Long,


Yeah, if anybody would be thinkin' o hurtin my W, I'd be ready to vaporize 'em. (maybe even plasmatize 'em). Perhaps it's more like a fatherly attitude than a husbandly attitude. I think it's because I feel like she's been hurt enough by all the uglyness of life. The whole universe should know that by now and just leave her alone already. Her so-called mother should especially know that.

W told me that she told her Mom that I bought her a "new" (2002) car. Her Mom said "You don't deserve it. I wouldn't have bought it for you." etc. etc. W is afraid to call home because her Mom is always such a verbal abuser on the phone.

Oh yeah, this was supposed to be an...
UPDATE

Just little tragments (tragments== tragic fragments). Night fore last, we were kinda doin' our own things - but I cooked a late sup - since nobody said anything about food til 9pm and DD was in bed - so W ate with me, was appreciative that I cooked something. Then off to our own things for awhile. I walked by at 11pm or so and W was watching a scary moving on SciFi about a doppleganger H (some kind of creature which looked just like this woman's H and was a baaadddeee). She asked me to sit with her since it was scarey. I was trying to get something done for work in the morning, but I sat with her.

So, I got about 3 hours of snuggle on the sofa, but most of that time was on the next movie - which was about a divorced couple and the next W - stepmother thing - starring the old twin-mother infidel Julia. Of course Julia was the stepmother - while real mother was dying of cancer (sob sob). This was not a good movie for us to watch together, snuggle or not - and I needed to be in bed so I could work instead of up 'til 2am.

W got wound up and began to demand that if we D, I would never marry. She promised to ruin any relationship that I attempt to have in the future. I know she wouldn't do it - it was just shooting off her mouth. Besides, it would only make her look bad. But, it is interesting. She even asked me to keep wearing the wedding ring after we D! So, she wants to keep me - and D me at the same time. Well, at least she wants me in some way. I told her "I don't plan to live the rest of my life alone. I would prefer to live it with you, but in any case, I don't plan to be alone." She got angry. I went to bed.

The next day (yesterday), she was settled down again - a bit sheepish about all that, but in the morning, I found DD in W's bed - and suspect that W, feeling a bit insecure about the possible threat of a future stepmother, went and got DD when she went to bed.

Yesterday was the pre-exam "study day" - so W did nothing but browse the web and watch TV. At lunch time, I took her "new" (2002) car to the shop to get the brakes worked on. Now it has new brakes. We ate lunch together. W seemed to want to stretch it out. I missed a bunch of work.

Last night, W was talking about rings. She says she misses her ring (which, if you recall, she threw in the moat of Cindarella's castle back before Christmas). Whenever she is with her married lady friends, she notices their ring and misses hers. She asked if I would buy her another ring if we don't D. I said, after hesitation, that of course I would - but not without feeling a bit ill-used. After all, she, in a moment of anger, threw away her diamond ring, and it wasn't the only ring she has tossed in this marriage - nor the first time she tried to get rid of that one. It took an "InSinkerator" ride in our first year of marriage - and was amazingly restored by the jewelry repair center. It's been in the toilet - and in a horse pasture (recovered with the aid of a metal detector. There were two other lesser rings that I gave her - most expensive was $500 that she tossed over a fence into a secure construction area at JFK airport.

We talked more about rings over the last two days. While she was insisting that I wear my ring even if we are D'd, I suggested that I have her name tatooed around my finger instead. I could always cover it with a ring. She really liked that idea - said she wouldn't D me if I did that - since it was so out of character for me, it would mean a lot to her. But, I've been there before. The formula is "If you do this (now), AD, then I will do that (later)". Why not reverse it so that she takes the lead and I do something later?

In general, I don't like tatoos - think they are rather low-class and vulgar, but I would be pleased to have her name tatooed around my finger (perhaps with some little rose ornamentations) - only not if we're getting a D.

-AD

Hi, AD.

So, have you decided what you are going to do, yet?

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble,

You asked...

Well, for one thing, I'm going to sell "the big house" - whether we D or not. We don't need it - and it's a huge financial drag.

If we stay married, DD will probably go to the high dollar private school. W is right about that. It's worth it. I'd much rather pay $1000/mo for the best school in town than the extra money to live in a house we don't need.

W just read today that a student from that school was one of only 17 kids in the nation who maxed out the new SAT - made a perfect score. Absolutely 100% of the graduates from that school go to college.

As for other issues, I don't know. Getting the finances in a more sustainable state is a very high priority right now.

W says that she needs to get to the other side of the citizenship issue before she can look at our marriage objectively. I'm willing to wait 3 months with the D on hold. But after that, we're going to have to have decision time.

So, from my standpoint the action items are :
1) Get the house on the market - start prepping it as soon as W's semester is over (a week or so from now).
2) Get the roof leak absolutely fixed on the other house and related interior repairs made.
3) Start my move to other house - furniture etc.
4) Perhaps, after the big stuff is moved, sell my van to ease the finances - and start driving W's old car. If I'm going to be a single guy, I don't want to be driving a minivan. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Meanwhile, with $2 gas, I don't want to be driving a minivan anyway.

W is reluctant to move herself to the other house - and I am reluctant for her to move there also. She, because she doesn't want to move twice - and has bad memories of living there; Me, because I don't want any risk that the other house will be considered "the marital home". I'll press her to sign a "quitclaim" on that house (part of the D papers that have been prepared). W wants to remain living together - since it is required officially in the case of citizenship based on marriage.

Another option is to sell both houses and move to an apt together pending the D. That would give maximum financial relief - and if we decide to stay married, we could buy a sensible small house with no attached memories.

You asked for a plan but I'm just rambling. #1 is for sure. That's all I know.

And.... we're going to Orlando together for a few days in mid-May - by car. I'll try to talk her into taking her "new" little car instead of the van. She can drive half way (meets my "parnership" need) - and we'll get 35MPG. She'll probably grumble about putting the miles on it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

-AD

AD:

"Perhaps it's more like a fatherly attitude than a husbandly attitude."

Nothing wrong with that in your M's "current condition". Hard 2 be romantic (husbandly) during plan A/D, frankly. And not unhealthy 2 be fatherly for a while.

"I think it's because I feel like she's been hurt enough by all the uglyness of life. The whole universe should know that by now and just leave her alone already."

And from Barry Long's article (in case you didn't get that far <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />):

"Everything you perceive as wrong with the world is the result of someone's personality. In fact, the world itself was constructed by personality's ignorance. That's why the world is such a cruel, exploitative and dishonest place, compared with the beauty and integrity of the earth and nature. Just as the personality lives off you, and drains your resources, so the world is exhausting the earth's resources."

I really like his distinguishing between the "world" and the "earth". My W seems like yours in that she views the world as a depressing, ugly place. I used 2 attribute that 2 "corneal rectumitis" - blaming her negative outlook for her persective, but I realize now that was a DJ. I've tried 2 offer a different view of things, but never really put the difference between the world and the earth quite so simply and clearly as Long did.

And I think you know that you can't expect the universe (world) 2 leave your W alone, anymore than I can expect it 2 leave mine alone (so that she could clear her thinking). She'll have 2 make the decision 2 not be deliteriously influenced by her perception of the world bearing down on her all the time. Maybe enjoy the earth a little, in the process.

-ol' 2long

I didn't read the article yet 2long (too busy learning 5th grade math so I can help DD <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But this last post of yours really is so true.

Maybe both of you should buy a canoe and take your wives out on the river.

My ex-fiance who seems to fast be becoming my best friend just called me to tell me he found a used canoe, and would I like it. Cool heh, since I am too stubborn to pay good money for a brand new one, and used canoes are very hard to come by.

My mom, aunts and I used to go stay out at my mom & dad's cabin on a pretty little lake on the weekend's when I was in high school. We would stay up late playing cribbage and board games, but always made sure we were up for sunrise on the front porch overlooking the lake to see the ducks come by with their babies. We used to go checkout the beavers progress on whatever damn they were currently working on too, in our little paddle boats, with steaming hot coffee in our mugs.

2long is right, it is so hard to to stay caught up in all the "BS" of the world when you are right dang smack in the middle of nature.

AD - sort of like you, I feel like I am narcissistcally posting to myself on your thread (usually), but I am okay with that. It is less conspicuous than having my own thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

"I took myself a blue canoe
And I floated like a leaf
Dazzling, dancing
Half enchanted
In my Merlin sleep"

-Elton John, "Where To Now, St Peter?"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
-ol' 2long

G'morning everyone!

I actually don't much feel like posting, but since you good people went to the trouble, I'll brace myself for the task.

But first... another cup 'o joe. BRB.

OK, I'm back. I'll bet you didn't even notice that I was gone!

First, Weaver, about the canoe...

When I was a child, or more precisely, a boy, from the age of 8 to 15, I had the priveledge of being sent off to summer camp twice each summer. Two camps; one week each. One camp was a co-ed "church camp" - that is, kids from my (very large) local church spent a week there. The other camp was also a run by a religious denomination - but was just a regular camp for boys with a brief "vespers" service at sundown each day, where we would sing a couple of songs and hear a little talk. I loved both of them, and would have loved to spend two or three times as much time there. I never felt homesick (which disappointed my Mom, who, I think, missed me while I was away).

(Unneccesary details having little to do with canoes are in this paragraph and can be skipped over by readers who are in a hurry to get to the point). Looking back at myself I think I was a fairly normal boy. I was respectful and serious about christianity, but I wasn't the kind of boy who would spend his Saturday reading the bible getting ready for Sunday. I took it as a matter of the utmost seriousness and importance, but wasn't a leader of the church kid pack - just one of the boys who was always there. The "church camp" included daily morning bible studies, followed by "campy" stuff, then afternoon bible something, then more campy stuff and a daily high-voltage religious service in the evening. Honestly, I enjoyed it immensly, (sp?) although I think I often felt a bit inadequate amongst the more emotionally religious kids. Actually, the evening service was very enjoyable. I especially loved the singing.

(back to the canoes here)
And, this camp had canoes! And a large creek with waterfall - and nobody much cared if I went out alone all afternoon in the canoe (as long as I didn't miss any of the required sessions). The keeper of the boats trusted me, and I almost always went alone - for hours in the canoe. I explored the upper reaches of the creek as far as was navigable in a canoe - certainly far beyond the boundaries of the camp. To describe the place, there was a waterfall - augmented a bit by a concrete dam - over which ran a bridge separating the two sides of the camp. The gym, dining hall, pool and some other public spaces were on one side of the creek and the cabins, "church" (had only roof - no walls) and etc. were on the other side of the creek. There was a deep pool upstream of the dam/waterfall - and a deep poool (about 15 or 20 feet lower) below the waterfall. The (aluminum) canoes were kept upstream of this - except there was one wrapped around a tree about head high in the swamp downstream - as a result of a storm. It had a hornet's nest under one of the seats.

Usually the kids would go out 2 or 3 or even 4 to a canoe, go about 200 or 300 yards upstream to the place where the road bridge crossed the creek, splash each other with paddles for awhile and drift back down to the landing a half-hour later. Nobody but me seemed to want to do more.

I think I never got enough of that. My dad couldn't swim - and was afraid of boats a little. We lived only 6 miles from the Tennessee river, but in my childhood we vary rarely went fishing or boating. So my memories of canoes are mostly me, alone, at summer camp.

Thanks for reminding me that I need a canoe. I want my DD to experience that, although her Mom is very afraid of the risk of drowning.

OK, I gotta work now.

-AD

Ah, canoe stories! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, this isn't a canoe story, exactly, but the important thing is the spiri2al journey, right?

During summer '91 and '92, I did some field work along the Porcupine River in Alaska, above the Arctic Circle. I had a different friend along each time as an assistant, and about 1500 pounds of food and supplies (most of which was in the 2 55-gallon drums of gas we had between us in the Zodiac. First year, we flew 2 Fairbanks, then chartered a bush pilot in Ft Yukon and got dropped off at the upstream end of Yukon Flats, intending 2 motor all the way upstream 2 the Canadian border. We made it as far as the Salmon Trout River before we realized we didn't have the skills to fight the current and go farther upstream. The 2nd time, my other friend and I started at 6-mile bar (6 miles from the border) and motored downstream to Ft Yukon. 2th times, our pilot had 2 drop us off and come back later with our fuel (couldn't carry 2th at the same time - illegal). On the first trip, he re2rned with our fuel a few hours after he dropped us off. The 2nd time, he was delayed for about 3 days! (and after the first trip, I knew we couldn't float down river without power, especially in Yukon flats where the winds would blow us against the current harder than the 2 of us could row downstream).

Enough preamble, though. Many times, I've wished I could afford the time 2 get away for a month or so and canoe down the Porcupine River. It's amazingly stark, beautiful wilderness. There are a few rapids along the way, but nothing worrysome 2 a canoer. No waterfalls. Very popular with European tourists, particularly Germans, I hear. It's possible to leave a vehicle where the Dempster Hwy crosses the Eagle River in Yukon Territory, float down 2 where it joins the Porcupine, then all the way down to Fort Yukon, where you'd have to fly back to Fairbanks (Ft Yukon is accessible only by air or boat), unless you have power and can motor up the Yukon to Circle, where there's a road back to Fairbanks).

In places in the Lower Ramparts, the river is so wide and straight that the wind-driven waves can be 3 feet high from crest to trough. On the 2nd trip down, it was clear but windy and cold. The canyon walls on either side were spectacular, and the waves kept us from going more than a few knots (othewise we'd get soaked by the spashing waves). It felt like we were on a big lake, not a river.

Another cool place is Fishook Bend, between the Lower and Upper Ramparts. The area is the site of an old lake, and there are fossil clams exposed in the lower parts of the river bank. Above that are two black layers about 2 or 3 feet thick, of charred wood, where 7 million years ago a douglas fir forest was flattened, twice by volcanic ash eruptions. What's so amazing is that the wood isn't completely burned, and it's not "petrified" either. You can take chunks of the stuff and it'll float in the water. It's still wood.

I'm rambling! I better get myself off 2 work!

Mostly, AD, I hope you didn't mind the digression here. I needed it. Just sitting here, closing my eyes, and pic2ring the vastness and beauty of the place is renewing.

-ol' 2long

Well, 2long, if you want to do that again - and need a soft-handed overweight 40-something desk-jockey to "assist", just give me a holler. It sounds wonderful!

(but it's not fair to trump my little camp/canoe story like that) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

-AD

Hey, don't worry AD! Just like last year they announced that "50" is the "New 30", I realized last week that "moderately overweight" is the "New Buff!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (re the news story about moderately overweight people living longer than slim and trim types).

-ol' 2long

Wow, what an experience 2long.

AD, yes start taking DD out into nature. My best childhood memories (like yours, although I never went to summer camp) revolve around things I did outdoors. You need to put her in a swimming class, and they do have very safe coast guard approved life-vests.

Okay, I've got a canoe story to share.

I took canoeing in college (gym credit) and one of the day trips we went on was up into Canada to a very beautiful, fast moving river which was riddled with rapids. We had to portage all the rapids and the river was so fast that we had to listen for them and at the first sound, row to the bank like a crazy person. Then we carried the canoes around to the other side. It is easier than it sounds because there were just so many rapids and the water current was so swift. And if your partner wasn't very skilled, it could get very stressful too. But is was SOOO much fun.

Our next asignment was to go out to the channel (east of the Soo Locks) where the ships are heading to Lake Huron after leaving Lake Superior. Well when one of the large lakers entered the channel we had to canoe out to it and were then left in it's wake, spinning uncontrollably. Our job was to regain control of the canoe and get out of the wake. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Well that was 25 years ago, I don't think I would want to try it now.

I'll take peaceful serenity instead. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First I heard of it! Thanks for the good news. I drove through Hardees for lunch today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

-AD

Remembering that this is a marriage board...

an UPDATE

Last night was strange. W went off to take an exam at 6:30. (One down, 3 to go.) Before she left, I cooked up a bit of steak in a skillet on the stove and talked her into eating a few bites - since the exam could go til 9pm and she might otherwise become ravenous. After W left, I took DD with me and went out to return a couple of prints that I bought for W's room - which she decided she didn't like - and to do a little shopping. Everything goes slowly when you are chasing a 4-y.o. around the store, so we got home about 9:20 and W was already home - tho she said she only arrived 10 minutes ahead of us. So, as far as H/W interactions, this was a short evening. We didn't have much time together. But, W has been complaining of tooth pain and saying she's going to schedule something with a dentist. She started complaining about her tooth again, and then the subject of exposure got reopened.

If anybody remembers, I exposed her A to her dentist - who was a friend of mine from before we were married - because she went and signed up for $4000 worth of dental work without asking me - and at that point it looked like she was trying to sqeeze me dry and then dump me. So I had called him at home on a Sunday night to say "We are getting a D. There is another man involved. Can we get out of this $4000 deal?" So, W, who really liked her dentist - is looking for another because she is embarrassed about the exposure.

I, on the other hand, am embarrassed that my old friend the dentist is probably out some $$$ for x-rays and impressions that he did on W when she went in to sign up for invisible braces. At the time, I asked him what I owed him and he said "Don't think about it. I'll just take it off the books." So next time I go in there, I'm going to ask again. I would feel bad if it cost him a few hundred. Even though money is tight right now, I would like to pay him his actual costs. Whatever happened, it's not his fault.

But back to last night's drama. W started getting wound up - saying that I was completely wrong to expose her to the dentist - that my only interaction with him, if any, should have been about money - just to say that we could not afford it and what would it cost to just stop it at that point. W would not let up on me. She said that she completely disrespects me for that - that it was petty and childish to talk about her like that - that her personal problems were nobody else's business etc. I just said that I had no regrets about that - and that I would do it again in the same situation. She was getting pretty heated, and I mananged to sneak up the stairs into the master suite ("my BR") and lock the door - and off the the shower out of sight, mind and earshot of her.

After I came out of the shower, I could hear her softly knocking. She said she wanted to talk. I told her "we can talk tomorrow, I'm going to bed." (She had at this point already put DD to bed). She insisted that I unlock the door, since "It's still my house and some of my stuff is in that room." I opened the door, asked what she needed, told her I could get all of her stuff out of that room within the hour if she wanted it. I asked her to please let me sleep. She said she wasn't keeping me from sleeping - that I wasn't in bed anyway. She insisted on talking - sat on the bed. I just busied myself putting away some laundry, then got in bed and turned off the light. She lay down on the other side, still angry - insisting that I listen to her. I said "well, now you are keeping me from sleeping". She said "you've got to listen to me." I said, "If you won't let me sleep, I'm going to have to leave and go to the other house." She said she didn't want that, got up and left. I could tell that she was tensing up to slam the door - and managed to say "...and please close the door gently"... which she did.

This morning, I got out to work while she was still sleeping. She called about 10am to appologize.

Whatever.

-AD

Was she wanting 2 talk just 2 spew at you? Or did she have something 2 say?

-ol' 2long

Another issue came up night before last.

W is insisting that I give her DD's passport. I know what you all are going to say about it, the same thing I would say to another poster in the same situation.

Honestly, I don't see her running off with DD.

First, she has no money (although post-D, she would have some). Her parents wouldn't give her any money either. I can't think of anybody who would give her the price of an airline ticket except perhaps OM, and I don't think he has much money either - unless he borrows from his bro.

Second, she suffers from PTSD or some closely related stress disorder. She doesn't have the constitution for life as a fugitive child abductor. (and she knows it)

Third and more, she wants DD to grow up in USA - like any good Mom who wants the best available life for her child. And, she wants DD to have a Dad - even if it is a weekend Dad.

So, there are lots of reasons why I should not fear international child abduction. Still, I ask "why do you need it if you're not going anywhere?" She says basicly, "It's pretty and I like to look at it sometimes, and if I'm the custodial parent, I should have all of my child's important documents." She says that I'm trying to keep DD from visiting her grandparents just for spite. She says she won't go anywhere without my permission. So, I asked her, "suppose you want to go visit your parents, and take DD with you, and you ask my permission and I refuse - What will you do then?" I answer my own Q by saying "You'll go anyway, won't you - because you consider my refusal to be unreasonable." She has no answer for that. I still have the passport.

BTW, I believe the "it's pretty and I like to look at it" line. My W and I think alike about some things. I'm smiling about it right now - think I'll dig it out and look at it sometime real soon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There is a story... <which I have deleted for privacy reasons>

-AD

Well, 2long, I think she just wanted me to agree that I was wrong to expose to the dentist - and she didn't want to be ignored. I know that sometimes when I don't want to listen to her diatribes, she feels ... insulted? I'm not sure how to describe it. She just become desparate for recognition.

I have in the last 6 years endured many of her talks until 2am or later. They never go anywhere good. I really really needed to get to sleep. I want to establish that as a matter of personal discipline - because it adversly affects my work. (not as much as reading/posting on MB, however).

-AD