I think you showed good boundaries by removing yourself to your room before a battle ensued.

I also think she showed good boundaries by knocking gently before coming in, and then by shutting the door gently when she left. If she was upset, she managed to show restraint when she is normally in the habit of tantrums instead.

Also, I think most who are not members of MB would think that exposure is mean and petty. So I understand her confusion with why you exposed.

I think you should be exceptionally kind and loving with her tonight. And hopefully she will not take that as permission to act poorly. Because that would indicate an unhealthy cycle, where when you are really kind and loving she acts up, and when you are practicing firm boundaries she practices restraint. But if she does act out tonight then be consistent in your boundaries, by removing yourself again from the room and not engaging in yelling/battling.

AD:

Your story about the passport incident reminds me of an old credit card commercial from about the early '80s (during the cold war), featuring George Burns.

George and a lady passenger are riding on a dark train that looks something like the Orient Express. Attendent comes through asking for tickets or something, and George flashes the credit card and the attendant moves on. Goes on 2 sell the credit card, touting how it's accepted all over, and the woman asks "Even in West Covina?" and George replies "Even in East Covina."

You have 2 know So. California 2 get that. There's a Covina and a West Covina, but no East Covina (reference 2 East Berlin).

Back to you!

-ol' 2long

The door was locked - and, although it is a normal, lightweight interior door, it has been equipped with an entry grade keyed lock.

I suppose she knocked gently because she would otherwise have defeated her attempt to get DD to sleep.

But, I suppose I could take your view of it without doing myself any harm.

-AD

<silly stuff deleted>

-AD

Yes, the benefit of the doubt once in awhile is a good thing.

But please know that this is coming from a dreaded "dem". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Boy, you are just violating all over the place AD. Didn't you ever hear of political correctness? If I didn't know better I would think you were a right-wing male chauvanist. Thank goodness I know better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm slipping into the abyss of sadness ...

But I'm still politically correct, 'cause I vote R!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No really, I've dragged this thread down into dangerous silliness, risking offenses with reckless abandon.

My appolgies to one and all.

Really.

sorry.

(I'll shut up now.)

<AD shuffles off, like a whipped dog, looked at the dirt and wondering if he'll ever be understood.>

-AD

Weaver,

I'm sure I stepped over the line by joking about dem-inhabited regions sinking into the sea.

My former best friend is a dem - and after the most recent election he decided he didn't want to associate with anybody from the wrong-colored states. So, I'm seriously nervous about having offended you and others who read but maybe don't post.

It is a strength of any nation when free people form their own opinions and organize themselves freely into groups of like-minded pepple. It is a strength of any nation when all treat differently-minded people with respect.

My appologies again to any and all who were offended.

-AD

Oh no, not at all AD! I was just teasing you.

I don't even always vote democratic. LOL

As my friend KYyellow says - my feelings can be easily hurt, but it is very hard to offend me!

I just read your last post after my last one, and it sure is nice to see some humor from you. Hope all is well on the homefront. Well as well as can be expected at this time!

Update on what really happened Thursday night.

I previously posted...


Investigation reveals that after I went to sleep Thursday night - a little after midnight, she drove to OM's apt for a 2 hour visit.

So, that's the way she plays the game.

-AD

Might be time to let her experience life without AD taking care of her.

Hope others have some good thoughts on this. I sure don't.

Please make sure, should you leave that she has some strong support and parenting classes. I am very serious about that, and I would have it written into the divorce papers that joint parental counseling is mandatory.

Weav,

I don't know how I could get any forced parenting classes in the deal - and beside, she knows what she should do. It's the heat of the moment that leads to trouble. I still say that she is, in general, a fine Mom.

UPDATE:

W moped around all day watching TV and doing nothin'.

I moved the rest of her stuff out of the master BR - well almost all of it. She was very upset that I left the door (of the master) locked (I have equiped it with a keyed entry-style lock). She complains that the other bath is "too dark" (it has no window) and she prefers to shower in the master. For now, the door is unlocked.

We had some other convos.... too much to go into now. I'm tired.

GIMBLE ... if you still read here. You are right about a lot of this. Really, I think you were hitting it nearly dead on. I don't know what to do about it...

W says that if I had laid down the law early in our marriage, everything would have been different. And now? ...

Another post, another day. It's almost 2am.

-AD

Hi, AD.

Quote:
======================================
Investigation reveals that after I went to sleep Thursday night - a little after midnight, she drove to OM's apt for a 2 hour visit.
=====================================

So, ask her what she did and why she did it.

Quote:
=====================================
So, that's the way she plays the game.
=====================================

No offense intended, AD, but it seems that there are two people playing games here.

God bless,
Gimble

Hi, AD.

Quote:
==========================================
GIMBLE ... if you still read here. You are right about a lot of this. Really, I think you were hitting it nearly dead on. I don't know what to do about it...

W says that if I had laid down the law early in our marriage, everything would have been different. And now? ...

Another post, another day. It's almost 2am.

==========================================

And now, I believe it is still not too late.

AD, she is so mad at you, and she hasn't the maturity or experience to know what to do with it.

I am about to head to bed myself. I have some suggestions for you, and I will be willing to help you with some changes, but they will be difficult for you.

More tomorrow.

God bless you and your family.
Gimble

Yes, it is in the heat of the moment that she fails. Being a good mom means being consistently kind and patient with a child. Your WW was horribly abused as a child. She had no model of good mothering. So how can she KNOW this. And even if she does deep down, she doesn't know how to avoid her outburst in the heat of things.

Counseling and classes offer support, ideas, and will also help her to heal. This is an opportunity to force her to get the help and guidance she needs. I don't understand why you would discourage or discount the opportunity to get this support ball moving.

Even I, who never yells/strikes my DD needs counseling and support. Even my DD's dad who loves DD more than life and has never yelled/striken her needs counseling.

Parenting under the best of circumstances is difficult, but alone or with bad parenting in your childhood would be extrememly difficult to do lovingly all the time, this is where classes/counseling/support help.

And yes you could demand it in the separation/divorce agreement. Better now than two years down the road.

I am still hoping that it will not come to you divorcing, mostly because I think your DD needs you to be around.

I won't bring it up again, unless you want to talk about it though.

I will add one more thing - if you should leave, who will emotionally support your wife? Her mother? Loser boy OM? She does not have the emotional maturity to be a good, loving single mother. Hence my suggestion for counseling/classes.

I am glad Gimble and you are on the same page now. I agree with everything he has advised, especially the implementation of good boundaries as a start to turn your marital problems around.

Take care AD!

Gimble,

To be honest, I'm a bit reluctant to turn myself over to your direction - because I don't know your story. You are here - giving advice that many people find helpful, but I'm not quite ready to say "Gimble, tell me what to do." In part, because I don't know how you personally came to the point where you feel qualified as a marriage counselor. But, I'm listening if you want to advise me, for sure! And I appreciate you taking the time.

Weaver,

We are working toward an uncontested D. The only things I can get into the agreement are things we agree upon. Now, I can use the threat of a contested D (which W is afraid of) to push the "agreement" in a direction that is favorable to me, but in the end, W has some boundaries which she will not allow to be crossed. Anything which questions her competence as a mom would be extremely difficult to put into the agreement. Now, the easy way out is to say that both parents will submit to parenting ???? - what to call it "classes", "counseling", ???

The court here already requires that all divorcing parents attend a 4-hour seminar on "parenting in divorce". If you don't go, you lose. That is, "No parent will be given custody or visitation if they do not attend the seminar. If neither parent attends, the D will not be granted." W has already attended. I need to schedule a session for myself (they meet on Sat mornings).

I don't know how much I could go beyond that - but it doesn't hurt to push for it. I'll have a go at it.

Now, we could do a contested D. It would cost much more in dollars - and much much more in emotional stress all around. In general, I don't think that would be in the best interest of our child.

I'm still collecting evidence that might lead to a 100% convincing case for D on the grounds of adultry. If I have the evidence in hand, it will put me in a stronger negotiating position - no matter whether I want to negotiate about stuff (money) or such things as you have suggested.

UPDATE:

In conversation last night, W said "I'm desparate to find a way to save this family". I replied "I hear your words, and I see your actions." You don't act like you are trying to save this family. I have to give your actions greater weight than your words." Although I have not directly confronted her about her sneaking out Thursday night, I have told her (within the last 2 days) that I know she sneaks out at night. She denied it, to which I responded "You know the truth, and I know the truth. Why pretend?" She responded with that little nervous laugh and embarrassed look that she so often produces when she's been caught in a lie.

Going further than that - telling her "I know that you were at OM's apartment from 12:10am til 2am on Friday morning - would push it to the point where she would have to seriously address the question of how I know - and might lead to her finding a way to avoid detection. If she knew how I know, she would certainly be able to find a way around that - although I can come up with other ways of keeping track. So, from my POV, I don't see any advantage of confrontation beyond this. I don't have to prove my case to her, since she knows the truth. And I don't want a W who is only faithful to me because she is afraid of being caught. For me, survielance is a way for me to know where W really is - not physically, but in terms of commitment to this marriage. Right now, I am definitely on the D track - because W is clearly in no way commited to me.

Gimble, if you think I'm wrong about that, please explain.

Oh, and the cell bill came too. It's no match for FGG's W, but there are enough late night calls - one for more than 3 hours. It's strange that she used the cell. She could just as easily use the house phone. The last few days I've found the house phone busy much of the day when I called home. She claimed to be talking to one of her girlfriends, but I don't believe it. I think she avoids the cell during the day because she doesn't want to exceed her paid minutes.

Should I take the cell away? It's in my name.

Oh, and W went to church this morning with DD! Hooray! I know why. First, DD has a lot of new dresses - and likes to wear them, and W likes to show her off. Second, W told me this morning that DD asked yesterday "Do people go to church on Sunday?" W answered "yes". DD asked "When is Sunday?" W answered "tomorrow". DD said "I want to go to church tomorrow." There is a God! OK, yeah, I know they were very late, and the only reason for both of them is the opportunity for DD to wear one of her nice dresses - but it's a start.

------------
And finally, I'm at the office on Sunday afternoon - because I want to get some work done that I should have done Friday, but was too distracted to do. So, this is going to be my only post today. <said with firm resolve> 6 hours of work on Sunday afternoon might be enough to keep up with what I should have done Friday.

-AD

OK, I said only one post, but here I am again...

Gimble,

I wanted to give you a bit more info - which pretty much validates your view of my W.

Yesterday in one of our conversations, W was blaming me for much of our marriage troubles, saying that only if I (AD) had done this or that, everything would have been better etc. I told her, "Look, I know what you say you want - which is that you want to take care of your children, be a SAHM, decorate your home, invite people and cook for them, do a little light gardening, take your children to dance and music lessons, and be taken care of by a husband who does all the rest. That would work for me, but you have to let me do it. You say you want me to lead, but you don't follow."

She replied that "real leaders don't ask permission to lead, they just do it." This, of course, is true, and is just her feeding me back something I've told her in the past. However, I still say that if she wants the deal that she says she wants, she has to submit to my leadership. I reminded her of the book "The Surrendered Wife" I told her "If you want that deal, you have to surrender to my leadership - and you have to commit to me and to this family and leave OM completely out of your life".


She replied "I don't trust you. I can't surrender to you if I don't believe that you will take care of me." She reminded me that I haven't been doing well in my work - and that she wants me to be enthusiastic and ambitious in my career - that it's not enough to have a good job and a good income if it can be lost any day because I'm not doing my job like I should. I replied "That's reasonable", to which she replied "You always say that, but you're still not a good worker". (which is true).

So, I've given you some more ammo to shoot me with Gimble. Aim carefully, ok. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, I'm really really going to be a good worker for at least 4 or 6 hours this afternoon. It should not be neccesary for me to be here today, but the unfortunate truth is that it is.

-AD

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey I know people who go to church just for the sole purpose of making new contacts for business reasons. And I used to go to church because I like to sing, (and to show off my little girl <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) You are right, it is a start and it is a very positive activity.

It's too bad you couldn't put the screws to OM somehow. Scare him. Bob Pure found a way to put the screws to his WW's OM. Scared him too, just with a little letter I think.

My ex was messing around with a MWW after we split up and the MM broke his jaw. Put my ex out of eating comission for months. And he never went near a married lady again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I am not advocating physical violence, because lord knows what that could start, I am just wondering if there is anything you can do to make OM not want to mess with your w.
Is he in the country illegally? Would the INS be interested in anything about him? Could be a threat of exposure might work. Would his parents, or sponsor care what he is up to?

You don't need to respond to me, just thinking out loud and I know you need to work.

Hi, AD.

Quote:
======================================
To be honest, I'm a bit reluctant to turn myself over to your direction - because I don't know your story. You are here - giving advice that many people find helpful, but I'm not quite ready to say "Gimble, tell me what to do." In part, because I don't know how you personally came to the point where you feel qualified as a marriage counselor. But, I'm listening if you want to advise me, for sure! And I appreciate you taking the time.
======================================

I understand your reluctance, AD. I am not proposing that you give yourself over to me, and I make no claims as to any legally recognized qualifications.

My 'story' is long and involved and pretty old. It is also pretty ugly. I am not sure why my story would qualify or disqualify me for anything. I will tell you that I learned a lot from my past.

My qualifications are that I have been successfully married for 29 years, and my offspring is an upright and moral person, happily married and working toward her doctorate. My 'gift' in this world is understanding how things work. I have studied relationships and the issues that affect them. That has helped me through my own marital difficulties, and my wife and I have a marvelous relationship that we both work hard at maintaining. I own a long term successful business.

The reason I contribute here is because I like to help others that are struggling with life. My goal here is to help, and I pray daily that I never inflict harm.

My advice is given from three basic perspectives; direct experience, extrapolated experience, and information from my studies. I find that it is relatively easy for me, given a bit of information about both spouses and their situation, to form a mental abstract of their relationship. As I study more interaction between the two, and am provided with additional information, I use it to improve the abstraction (model).

I don't know that I feel particularly qualified as a marriage counselor. I am comfortable and confident with my abilities, but I am not perfect. I do think that the fruit of my labor has been good, and has had a positive effect on most. I am not trying to prove anything, or win a popularity contest, I try to help people I think I can help. The people I don't think I can help, I stay away from unless it is to make an encouraging comment.

One of my weaknesses is the inability to sufficiently disconnect from another person's pain at times. It sometimes prevents me from helping someone that I think I might be able to help, if I could get past the pain.

Ultimately, all I have to offer you, is my observations of issues in your situation, and possible solutions. I make no claims or assurances of any kind.

The other thing I seem to be reasonably good at, is 'calling people up" out of the depth of their despair, and into some semblance of functionality.

I hope that addresses your concerns.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble,

Thanks for the backgrounder. You didn't tell much, but I'm not going to press you. As a working theory, I'm guessing you were a WS.

All the same...

Please proceed with the advisement. I'm listening.

If I understand you correctly, you think I'm playing games because I don't confront my wife with specific instances of her interactions with OM. Please explain why you think it is best to do so.

Actually, when I said "That's how she plays the game", I was being a bit sloppy in what I wrote. It's not a game for her. Her pride was hurt and she was looking to do something to boost her self-esteem. When there is a man who thinks she hung the moon - and is always waiting for her, it is easy for her to fall to the temptation to go to him when she is feeling rejected by me. I'm not justifying her actions, just trying to explain them. However, she is miserable - and I can tell, from some of the semi-cryptic things she has said, that she is ashamed of herself. Certainly this scheme is not making her happy.

UPDATE:

W called about 6, wanted to go somewhere to dinner. I said OK, but called back to ask that she wait until 7pm. She said, "maybe some other night". I said "OK". Then, half-hour later, I called back and said "If you still want to go...". She said "OK" - and called me from the parking lot about 7 or so. I came down. She drove. She more-or-less picked the restaraunt. In the back of my mind I had the idea of asking her to pay for dinner (out of the tiny funds she has in "her" account). As it happened, the waitress put the check on the table next to my wife. I opened my fortune cookie and read "A letter or phone call with relieve a great weight from you." I said "Hmmm. This check is a letter, right? This must mean that you are going to pay for dinner." So, she did - with an odd little smile.

Dinner and drive were generally pleasant. She dropped me back off at the office and is surely at home giving DD a bath right now.

I'm going home too.

I haven't forgotten where I am, and this little eppisode doesn't change anything, but I can't recall W ever paying for our dinner - and especially with "her" money - so it's interesting at least - although I don't think it means much. I'm still thinking that I should move out - that "Plan B" is coming soon. When I locked the door to the Master BR the other day, W was pretty upset about it. She said, more or less, that she doesn't like to have things taking away from her - to be closed off from something. "Plan B" is all about taking myself away from her. But, plan B is supposed to be about establishing NC and recommitting to the M. The only thing I could ask for that would be enough to change my mind about the D - is that she agree to a renewal of vows - in a church - with a dress (I suppose, grumbling at the expense) and a ring (simple, not diamonds). She herself has said that if we remain married we would need to do that. She would have to do it without ever communicating with her parents about it - so she could never say that they made her do it. etc. etc. You get the idea.

OK, I'm really going home now.

-AD

Weaver,

Thanks for the post. Thanks for reading. Thanks for the encouraging words. I would say that I'm losing hope, but it's not really like that. It's not about hope, but, sadly, about figuring the odds that W will come around - and that she will not simply relapse in a few months or in a year or whenever.

As long as OM is here (and why should I leave the city I was born in just to get away from a guy who came thousands of miles to get near my wife?) - our family is not safe. W has to do something that will absolutely crush his hopes.

A NC letter, A renewal of vows and a pregnancy (with me being for sure the dad) might be enough to discourage him a bit - as long as she stops stringing him along. (It apparently is very easy for her to string him along.) That triple-whammy is too much to expect from her in the near future - and that means that D is still the most attractive option for me.

I've got to keep up surveilance, because I so much want to believe her that without the hard evidence, I could slip back into (or continue to be) an enabling cake maker.

I'm really really really going home now.

-AD