Hi, AD.

There is a lot of ground to cover, so if you don't mind, I want to jump right in the middle and address a few things and some questions. I will post more tomorrow since it is already 3:00am.

Offer to take her out to dinner. Do it as soon as possible. You pay. Treat her like a lady. That means opening all doors for her. Escort her to her seat with your hand on the small of her back, pull her chair out for her and assist her in being seated. At some point in the evening, tell her she looks beautiful. Make sure you dress well for the occasion. Look good, smell good, be polite and gentlemanly.

Take the lock off your bedroom door. Apologize to her for putting the lock on the door. Tell her that you were trying to address some issues you had with her, but that you had taken the wrong approach. Tell her that you would like for her to start sleeping in the same room with you. Don't demand, just let her know your preference.

Confront her about her late night visit. Tell her that you want to work on the marriage with her, and you are ready and willing to do so. Tell her that her relationship with the other man must stop completely, and forever. Hold her hand while you talk to her. Be even, calm and strong. Don't argue. If you promise her that you are going to work with her on the marriage, then you must follow through, even when it gets a bit rough. No threats.

Go and buy several chain locks (or bolt locks). If she leaves in the middle of the night again, install the chain locks on the outside doors and lock them from the inside. You can leave her a note outside that she may call you to gain entrance when she returns. Be calm, and strong. Address her actions upon her return.

Tell her that it is unacceptable for her to talk to the other man on the phone. Tell her that she is actively disrespecting you whenever she talks to him. Be calm, even tempered, and strong. If she persists, then have the cell phone service disconnected along with the regular phone service. Do not tell her that this is your intention. It is a consequence. If she violates the boundary, you act. No yelling, be calm and strong.

Stop talking about the divorce.

You need to come up with several script lines that you use when she is yelling and in your face. They should contain basic information about your intentions, and the requirements of the boundary in question.

Please run those scripts by me, before you cast them in stone.

Do you understand boundaries well enough to set a few?

This is just a start, AD. Your wife wants a mature, responsible man in her life. Right now, before it really is too late, you need to become that man. You are established, you have property, you have some age and wisdom. That appeals to her. This is the advantage you have over the other man. You are in the same house with her, she is your wife and the mother of your child. These are also major advantages over the other man. She wants you to be the man in her life, not the other man.

What I want to do, is to help you learn to meet your wife's needs. The hard part for you, and for any of us for that matter, is that very often, the hardest issue to address in a marriage, is the very thing that MUST be addressed in order for the marriage to survive, and thrive.

You have mentioned that you need an equal partner in the relationship. You can have that, even though your wife needs something of a father figure in her life. Those needs are not mutually exclusive. What you have to do is be someone that she can admire, and be proud of. A man of strength of will, and strength of character.

You mentioned your work ethic. What are some of the other things that your wife finds unappealing about you?

God bless,
Gimble

UPDATE:

W spent the night in "my" room (and bed) last night. My take on it is that being locked out, makes her want to be in. I forgot about that. The keyed lock was first installed during an earlier period when she had moved to another bedroom - and it had the almost immediate effect of bringing her back into the master BR. I had forgotten about that since it was probably more than a year ago.

This leads toward the possible efficacy of Plan B. (Sorry Gimble if that doesn't match your prescription). I'm ready to discuss the alternatives - maybe we can get MortarMan in here to give an opinion as a plan B specialist.

Gimble,

Your prescription sounds interesting - and if I can summarise what you recommended:
1) Take her out. Treat her like a lady. Be a man. (and you left out the part about getting a babysitter - which we have never done in 4.5 years of DD's life - because W doesn't trust 'em. I think it could be done now, but just wanted to let you know it won't be easy. W will feel guilty going out without DD - and will worry that sitter will be bad in some way).

2) Stop talking about D. Please explain your reasoning here. It seems to me that the more real the possibility of D, the more W questions the wisdom of it. I'm not bluffing. I will D her. I think she knows it. I'm not saying you recommendation is wrong - just looking for further explaination.

3) Boundaries, locks etc. I think I do set some boundaries. I hope you appreciate the fact that my w suffers from something like PTSD (actually one symptom short of PTSD from the DSM-4 criteria). When she is in a high anxiety state, it can explode into violence. Over time I have adapted, as has she - and violent behaviour on her part is much less common now. Sometimes, I just humor her. Boundary application under these conditions is complicated. I hope you appreciate that. I like your suggestion of changing the locks if she sneaks out at night, but of course, she can claim that she went to the big store that never closes - to shop - an excuse that she has used for years to explain her nightime ventures. I can't say at the time that she has gone out - where she went. How can I say "I'm not going to let you in" - when she says "I couldn't sleep and just went for a drive." Of course, I could just tell her that anytime she leaves in the middle of the night from now on, I'm going to assume she is with OM. Then the lockout would at least be based on an assumption that she knew I would make.

As for your Q "what does she want from AD?":
In general, she wants decisivness, vigor and energy in all that I do. She wants me to lose weight, but says its not very important. (It is important to me, because I feel in light of OM, 15 years younger and considerably thinner, I'm not an interesting bedmate, to put it plainly.) There is only one more thing that she mentioned this weekend - that when she is non-functional, I have to take over. As she put it, on a day when she lies on the couch all day, she wants to see DD with her hair brushed, nicely dressed and well fed and entertained. She wants me to be ready to step in when she falls down. That is a particular (non-standard) need that she has. It's hard to see where the line should be. What is laziness and self-indulgence, and what is some kind of temporary mental-health breakdown?

OK, I must work now. Thanks for staying on the case.

-AD

Hi, AD.

I don't think Plan B will work at all with your wife. Tell me this. What results would you expect from Plan B?

On taking her out, definitely include your daughter. You can be a family man and romantic and caring.

She very likely sees all the divorce banter as threats from you. The neat thing about proper boundaries, is that you don't have to threaten or hold them over the recipient's head for them to be effective. I don't think that she thinks you are bluffing. A threat of divorce should not be a power play.

I do appreciate that your wife has needs a bit divergent from the norm. Treating her like she is crazy, or minimizing her sense of self, which is already very low, is an invitation for further disaster.

My sense is that a part of the dynamic between you and your wife is that she feels like she has never been able to measure up to your standards (something that you reinforce on a regular basis), or any one's standards that are important to her (father, mother ...).

A boundary with a troubled person like a rebellious teen for example, has to be clearly defined, and always applied in an appropriate manner. Not in anger, disgust or yelling. That muddles the message.

AD, you seem desperate to win some kind of war with your wife, maybe it is a control struggle. Your goal needs to be to win her respect. Respect and control are very different issues, and the approach to both is very different. Your wife is not a special case, she just had a tough upbringing. Been there myself. She seems to want to win your respect as well.

You are worried about your surveillance being discovered. Why? If you have the divorce paperwork ready, and you know there is another man, and that she is sneaking out to see him, why not confront her with the truth, and negotiate an end to the affair?

Quote:
======================================
There is only one more thing that she mentioned this weekend - that when she is non-functional, I have to take over. As she put it, on a day when she lies on the couch all day, she wants to see DD with her hair brushed, nicely dressed and well fed and entertained. She wants me to be ready to step in when she falls down.
======================================

In a normal, functional relationship, this is standard fare. Partners rely on each other for basic backup. If my wife is sick, then I fetch soup and make a store run for 7up. If she can't handle lifting a heavy object that she wants to move, she calls me. She does many things to meet my needs. That is why it is called a relationship. You work together, you live together, you pull together, you argue, make love, have children and hopefully grow old together. She wants you to show her that you are strong enough to handle her, your daughter, and any insolence she tosses your way; in a way appropriate to the circumstance.

Right now, you are very hurt at her and by her. That is normal, but you are letting your hurts control all of your interactions with her. You have to stop that, and start looking at the larger picture. Since you are here, you get to go first.

The only real threat other man is to you, is that he is pretending that he will (future tense) be able to meet your wife's needs one day. Don't give him the chance. Start meeting her needs, and calling her on her inappropriate behavior. Stop trying to cajole or control.

God bless,
Gimble

Afternoon, Gimble,

I'll try to work through your post point by point.


Well, what I have to see is her coming to me and saying she will do whatever it takes to save the marriage. And then, when I tell her she has to do, she would have to do it. She has to accept resposibilty for her actions instead of blaming her mom or her dad or me. She has already pledged NC, but doesn't follow through. Maybe you are right. I can't imagine her doing what it will take for me to be persuaded that she will remain in NC.


We do go out from time to time - less recently than in the past. As I wrote, we went to dinner last night. W drove and W paid - which was a nice change for once in a while.

Also, I cooked lunch Saturday, which, although she griped about it while I was cooking, is something that usually pleases her - makes her feel taken care of.

What do you think about our proposed trip to Orlando (in about 2 weeks)? It will be SeaWorld and the beach (no Disney). Just Saturday, she told me she wants to go to the beach with DD - and without me. That's pretty direct. I'm thinking about cancelling. Actually, I'm not very enthused about the beach idea - because I don't feel like appearing in public without a shirt at the moment. SeaWorld would be good.


I don't really banter about D. We negotiated a settlment. I went to a lawyer and had it written up. We have reviewed the papers, but not gone forward because she wants to wait for her citizenship. But, I'm sure she sees it as some indication that she can't count on me. But should she assume that she can count on me when she is sneaking out to see her lover? I'm being honest when I say that she cannot. I won't endure that for long.


I'll re-read Townsend and Cloud. It's in one of the stacks of books that I moved from my BR to hers this weekend.


It's not, at least in my case. I'm really going to get divorced before long if there is no radical change on her part. I'm not demanding that she become everything I want in a wife - only that OM is absolutly history. If OM is 100% and forever out of the picture, then I am eager to go forward with no recriminations.


I'm sure you are right. There is a certain dynamic that happens so fast it's hard to get a grip on. She starts becoming hysterical; I start backing away - speaking to her very carefully. She notices and become even more upset - because I'm treating her like she's crazy. But, c'mon, she has a history of hitting me, kicking me, scratching me, biting me, pulling my hair, throwing things at me. I can forgive her, but I can't turn off my memories - and act as if that never happened. She slapped me a couple of times Friday night - when she made some mis-assumptions about something.

I don't know how to fix that by myself. It's not as if I feel physically in danger - but it really hurts to see her that way. I hate it when she is that way. It's so low, so barbaric. I find it disgusting. It hurts to see my DD saying "mommy slammed the door". It hurts even more to see DD immitating that kind of behaviour. It may not be crazy but it is unacceptable to me. I can work with her, month by month to elliminate that, but I don't know how to stop being disgusted by it. I never had any experience with a woman who acted that way - and I never wanted to.


That sounds reasonable. I feel that I rarely critisize her, but she probably would say otherwise.


Ok, that sounds simple, but in real life what does it mean?


I don't see that at all. I don't assume that anything will change in a positive direction. I've pretty much given up. There are little flashes of hope now and then, but I don't think they are realistic. As long as OM is here in this city, there can be no marriage for us. And as long as he is anywhere in the world and not married, he will be a threat to us.


No argument here.


I don't think I've tried to control her.


Were you born in a war - witness to a massacre at the age of 5 - where everybody you knew was killed? I think she is a special case (fortunately) - at least in this country.

I'm sure you are right.


Because I have a soft spot for her. If she wants to string me along, for example, until OM graduates and gets a job, I don't want that deal. I need to have a way to know if she is in contact with OM, because without that knowledge I may let her string me along until she has used me up.


I have confronted her to some extent. I tell her that I know she sees OM. I tell her that she is failing her classes in part because she skips class to see OM. When she says "I'm not into my studies. When I'm in class I feel bad to put DD in day-care", I say "What about when DD is in day-care and you are with OM?" I have not said "I use technique xyz to find out about this-and-that, and here is the evidence." I don't see what that gains me. I suppose it will intensify the pressure on her, but she will calm down in a few days - and figure out how to get around it. In the past, she knew that I was monitoring her email - and they have not communicated by email in a very long time now. That channel was closed because I disclosed my surveilance. I'm willing to try it, but I want a good reason why you think it will be helpful to confront at that level.

BTW, I have some undergarments to send out to the DNA lab. After that, I may have a legally acceptable proof of an "adultrous relationship" as the law calls it. At that point, I think confrontation might be safe enough. But after that, you can be sure that things will find their way into the laundry (or trash) more quickly.

If I can never trust her, I don't want to be married to her.


I don't agree at all. When she was subjected to verbal bashing by her SIL and her Mom, I was 100% on her side - and doing everything I could think of to encourage her and protect her from that.


I can't meet her "need" to come home and speak Russian with her husband - not fully. I can make some progress there, but she is certain that I will never be able to really do that. I can't be 15 years younger.


I don't think I cajole or control. I'm sure I'm not objective. Please explain.

Well, thanks for taking the time to help. I don't know why you do it, but thanks all the same.

-AD

I think I can safely answer that he does it because he cares about you, your young wife, and your little girl, as do I and many people who follow your thread but are at a loss for answers.

Your wife suffered horrors unimaginable by most of us, and then was horribly, grotesquely abused by her adoptive daughter. But there is still hope for her. She can heal and become the woman she wants to become.



Remember "David" the boy who was kept chained up in a basement his entire childhood, being fed only the rotten scraps that the family dog wouldn't eat? Well he found a way to overcome, and now he writes books and works with other abused children.

Look at Helen Keller, a hopeless case until her teacher came into her life, and taught her to respect herself, her teacher...and she did it with a strength that only can come from love. Helen Keller then became one of the most admirable women in the world.

Love and grace can not only move mountains, it can heal that which seems unhealable.

Hang in there AD! You can do this.

AD:

I gotta run pretty shortly, and I apologize if I'm missing anything (or putting thoughts in2 other people's heads), but I see you have a 2ple of choices, and the clearer-cut you make them, the sooner you'll end the madness.

I've been here before: I threaten DV, and wonder why that doesn't produce SOME KIND of result. And people advise me 2 stop talking about it. So I stop.

You stop, because what everybody's suggesting you do, in this scenario, is "if you want 2 be M'd, BE married." You can be right later, if being a husband is something that your W really enjoys. It might help her end her A.

OR: Plan B. "Fire all of your guns at once and explode in2 space" (Steppenwolf).

She knows you know she sneaks out, but she doesn't know how you know. So, she's suspiscious. your suspiscious of her behavior, and she's suspiscous of your methods. If you're going 2 plan B, you need 2 "go there" when it will have the most effect (and precisely why I haven't liked that method, because it seems so manipulative - when it's really forcing consequences 2 be faced). In this case, I would imagine the most efficaceous way 2 plan B would be 2 confront her with your method by telling her when she's at the OM's (and handing her enough clothes 2 live there indefinitely). Make him take care of her for a "while." And let her find a way 2 negotiate time with your DD.

Gotta run now. More later, if I can scare up a few minutes.

-ol' 2long

Well, I've been to the P.O. and the aformentioned garment, stained with whatever, is (carefully packed and) in the hands of those who are not averted by snow, sleet etc. - to be faithfully deliver'd to the laBORatory for testing.

I don't know what to hope for. Actually, I hope the test is positive. I know it's happening, and it would be nice to have definitive proof in hand.

WW's sloppy housekeeping is to my advantage this time around. If she had taken care of the laundry, I would have missed this chance.

-AD

W just called and sed replacement green card arrived in the mail. She is relieved.

-AD

I'm feeling really down right now. That little trip to the post office took a lot out of me. That a stained pair of cute undies - in the mail - could have anything at all to do with my life is so strange and depressing. It was a big step for me. When I sent it, I figured I wasn't in a hurry - and maybe even didn't care if it got lost - so I just sent it 1st class. Now I wish I had used express. I have to wait - probably 8-10 days with mailing time - to know what I already know and really haven't accepted.

I haven't been able to get wound up on the imagery. If I were there watching OM's door when W arrived in the night - saw the pleased look on the pig when he opened it to find her there, saw her hug and kiss him.... I would ... I don't know... be glad the door closed and I didn't have to see more.

It's not real, but it is.

How can any of us live - knowing that we can be torn up like this by the people we love and trust?

Sometimes I want to D - and to never see W again.

I dread the post-D co-parenting. Sometimes I feel like just giving up. I lose. That's it. Get on with the next ... ??? ... next what?

Sorry. Just slipping a bit this sleepy afternoon.

I want to go home - to a home where I don't have to face all that - would even prefer to be alone - at least for awhile. I want to just forget all about it - go persue some hobbies - get out from under as much financial responsibilty as I can. No house, just a shop with a sleeping loft. That would be nice. One of my friends said he'd like to live in a house on top of a 200x200 ft warehouse/shop. That would be cool. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> but... too big for me. Too much stuff. No, I need one thing at a time - then sell it or give it away - not 100 half-done projects and undeveloped hobbies.

I was reading FORGED's thread. He's some kind of metalworker/artist if I understand correctly. It would be nice to heat up some metal and beat on it for awhile. I think I would like that - in a dirty, noisy shop - then to go to a little connected refuge - cook a simple meal, read a book, sleep.

Don't pay any attention. I'm just ... well, you can see what I'm doing.

-AD

... doing something like that, where one glowing piece of iron becomes the whole world - where all that matters is the arc of the hammer through the air - that you will with your entire mind to the exact spot, with the exact energy that you need, then move the metal and swing again - feel your shoulder warm and ache, but know that today it is stronger than last week - than when you began - that every day you do this you are stronger, more like a real metal worker. You don't care about the result - not much. Is it an iron gate for the garden? Maybe - a start of one. Oh, that's too big, well then it is a decorative thing to hang on the wall. Which wall? Don't know. Doesn't matter - give it away. Bang on some more metal. Arms feel better. Nothing else but that one spot - where you want the hammer to fall.

But after awhile, you realize that this is not the world you really want to live in. You want somebody to look in at the door of the shop, shout your name, smile at you - say "Dinner's ready!" So, you can drop the hammer, let the glow dim in the iron and fire - go take a shower, see a different kind of glow in ... eyes. Sleep? Who's in a hurry. Live.

But it's too dangerous. If it's not iron, it's a computer, or a business or something - but at the end of the day there has to be a reason for doing it - or ... there's no fire in it.

-AD

2Long,

Thanks for the post. Yeah. I'm tired. Go this way. Go that way. All the same. Nothing changes. Everything changes. Nothing matters. Everything matters. We die. Nobody remembers us. They build a shopping mall over the graveyard. 15-20 years go by. Nobody shops there anymore. It's closed, then abandoned, then buldozed to widen the highway, put in a new interchange. Thousands drive over it every day - each alone in a car - thinking of his/her problems, oblivious - alone.

The art and craft of self-pity is rarely neglected - but perhaps underrated.

But, after all,
death and earthly oblivion
are inevitable.

So, life is
what it is,
just a moment
when we have
an opportunity
to make a choice
to take a chance
to live
as best we can.

The risk;
of pain,
of rejection
of simply
being nothing to nobody,
we can fight against,
by, ourselves, struggling to
be something to somebody -
to our child
or to a stranger
or to make a friend
out of him
who was a stranger -
perhaps nearby,
also lonely.

It sure is quiet in here.

UPDATE:

As best I can tell, W briefly visited a jewelry store and a bridal shop this afternoon. OM might have been with her.

That was approximately while I was going to the post office.

-AD

Hi, AD

I don't think that Plan B will work since she will not be separated from her daughter, and you will still be paying for everything. I do agree that she must accept responsibility for what she has done, but for you to recover your marriage, that may be a good ways off.

Why did you want your wife to pay for the meal out?


Quote:
====================================
Also, I cooked lunch Saturday, which, although she griped about it while I was cooking, is something that usually pleases her - makes her feel taken care of.
====================================

Good deal on doing something that makes her feel cared for. Next time she complains when you are doing something nice for her, try this on for size; "Wife, stop complaining, I am doing this because I love you and I want to do it. Just say 'thank you'". When she says "thank you", tell her "you're welcome".

Quote:
====================================
What do you think about our proposed trip to Orlando (in about 2 weeks)? It will be SeaWorld and the beach (no Disney). Just Saturday, she told me she wants to go to the beach with DD - and without me. That's pretty direct. I'm thinking about cancelling. Actually, I'm not very enthused about the beach idea - because I don't feel like appearing in public without a shirt at the moment. SeaWorld would be good.
====================================

Tell her no. If she and daughter go, you go.

Re: divorce as a power play:
====================================
It's not, at least in my case. I'm really going to get divorced before long if there is no radical change on her part. I'm not demanding that she become everything I want in a wife - only that OM is absolutly history. If OM is 100% and forever out of the picture, then I am eager to go forward with no recriminations.
====================================

But that is a power play. If you want to show her that you really are ready and able to fight for her, then put it on hold, and drop the divorce issue entirely for a period of time, determined by you, but not discussed with her. Find out if you can win her back, without coercion.

To me, it looks like she is preparing to be on her own. Since her idea of being on her own includes a man that she can tolerate, she is dragging other man along in hopes that he will eventually be suitable. From what she has said to you, I think that she has made it clear who she really wants, and it isn't the other man. He is her ONLY backup plan at the moment. I assure you, she is almost in a panic with the idea of the divorce looming ever more prominently, daily. She is nursing her relationship with him along. I doubt that he is the driving force behind it.

My suggestions to you have a specific goal. Show her the man you can and WILL be, while you insist that she stop the affair and help you repair the damage to the marriage. If you think that she is going to become repentant overnight, and run to you crying and confessing, then I think you will be waiting a long time.

It isn't that I don't think your wife is capable of those things, I think that she is, the problem is that she is viewing the situation as a SURVIVAL issue, not a marital one. Her reactions are going to differ accordingly.

AD, from the time I started reading your comments on this bulletin board a year or so ago, the things you said about your wife, always left the impression on me, that your wife's major issues were not entitlement related, rather they were more like the reactions of someone drowning. It wasn't until much later that I learned something of your wife's background.

Quote:
==========================================
There is a certain dynamic that happens so fast it's hard to get a grip on. She starts becoming hysterical; I start backing away - speaking to her very carefully. She notices and become even more upset - because I'm treating her like she's crazy. But, c'mon, she has a history of hitting me, kicking me, scratching me, biting me, pulling my hair, throwing things at me. I can forgive her, but I can't turn off my memories - and act as if that never happened. She slapped me a couple of times Friday night - when she made some mis-assumptions about something.
==========================================

Next time she gets hysterical, instead of backing off, forcefully grab her and hug her. See if you can comfort her. Be strong for her. If she pulls away, don't chase her, tell her to "come here", don't ask. You can be kind but forceful.

If she hits at you, look her straight in the eyes and tell her to stop. Don't yell. You can block her punches and protect yourself, but don't withdraw, and don't engage her with anger.

You are setting boundaries.

Quote:
==========================================
Were you born in a war - witness to a massacre at the age of 5 - where everybody you knew was killed? I think she is a special case (fortunately) - at least in this country.
==========================================

Nope, but I have done and seen some things that you wouldn't believe.

I've no doubt that she has hurts, but she is human, and she will respond to being treated in a manner appropriate to her situation.

Quote:
==========================================
I have confronted her to some extent. I tell her that I know she sees OM. I tell her that she is failing her classes in part because she skips class to see OM.
==========================================

Tell her what you know for sure she is doing. " I know that you saw other man at 12:32am after sneaking out of the house on Sunday night". Don't tell her how you know.

If she is seeing other man instead of attending classes, and you are paying for those classes, then stop paying immediately. There are no second chances. You stop paying for those classes. You call the school and cancel. You tell her AFTER it is done. That is a boundary. Her sitting out a semester is a consequence.

I know these are some big chunks of debris I am hitting you with, and you are handling it well. I believe that you have what it takes to be the husband your wife needs. I can see why she was interested in you. I can also see why you found her attractive. From what you have told me, I bet she is a ball of fire.

Stop worrying about your age compared with other man. It is working more in your favor than you might realize.

Quote:
=======================================
Well, thanks for taking the time to help. I don't know why you do it, but thanks all the same.
=======================================

You are very welcome.

God bless,
Gimble

Gimble,

When I resolved to D, I slept like a baby. Now that things are muddled again, I don't know if I have the strength to go on. I didn't sleep much last night - not doing very well.

Gotta go get dressed. W is taking her final final starting over an hour ago and I am still home. I'll at least be ready to go when she returns. I don't want to take DD to preschool.

-AD

Hi, AD.

You know don't have to do this if you don't want to. If you want to proceed with the divorce, then you certainly have the right.

It sucks for anyone to walk through this.

God bless,
Gimble

Oh, it's not something I would want every time, but I think this marriage is all about me giving and her taking. It's nice to see her give once in a while. I think the more she invests in the marriage (hopefully more important things than money), the more she will value me.



OK, sounds like it might work. I'll try it.

In case you wondered, her griping amounted to "my mom did it right and you are messing it up", although that's not exactly what she said. She always says she likes that dish when I cook it, but now she wants to tell me how to do it.


To be clear, W would never undertake to drive to the beach by herself. Either we all go to FL or none of us go. My Q was "should I cancel the trip altogether, given that she has said she doesn't want to go with me?" Probably she will want to go to Sea World - as a family - see the shows etc. DD wants to go to the beach, and we could do a run over to the coast for that. On the other hand, I could save my money for a post-D trip for DD and me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I still don't see how it is a power play to say "these are the conditions under which I will stay married to you" - especially as we are persuing a uncontested D - which requires that we agree on everything before we file. We both must sign or it doesn't happen that way - so neither of us has any more power than the other. Please tell me what is your definition of "power play". Is it wrong to have power over one's own future?


Well, I've been at this for a long time. She promised NC. I told her I would wait for her citizenship. She went back to contact, and I pressed for D. Is that not something a little like a boundary? Right now, I'm back into the wait for CZ mode.

I would love to win her - but "back" is too much to call it. I never won her since we've been married. Long, long, long ago when we got engaged - or maybe a month before that - before her parents got involved, she was actually in love with me. And in the early phases she could not keep her hands off me - wanted to always be in my arms. That's a pretty fuzzy memory now. But, last summer, after a month with her family she returned with a very good attitute which lasted for perhaps 2 months at most. That was either the result of constant coaching by her SIL and Mom - or she really missed me. I think it was a combo. She actually told me that she realized that she needed me - that it was hard to get by without me for a month (although we talked almost every day - sometimes twice).


Just yesterday she was saying it will be 10 years before he can support her financially in the way I do. But, Gimble, OM has been a part of our marriage from the beginning. He has always (except for about a year while W as prego and shortly after), been out there - on the phone, email, postcards with cute drawings etc.

BTW. She assures me that she is long past the stage where making cute drawings impresses her. She wants a man who can take care of her.


Sounds great - but after such a long struggle - where is the extra turbo-boost afterburner going to come from. I've been running flat out for a long time. I'm tired.

I give, give, give - and she says "that's nice" then after a day or two, goes back to "I'm miserable. You destroyed my life." - and sneaking off to see OM.

Sure if I could be my best me - that would be good enough, but who can do it under these conditions. I had this discussion with W recently. She said "you should do what you need to do no matter what I do - otherwise it is conditional". I replied, "Of course it's conditional. We all adapt to our circumstances. If it's cold you put on a sweater. If it's warm, short sleaves. You can't expect me to respond to the winter as if it is the summer."


Oh, I never thought that. Rather, I think she will string me along and sway back and forth on the fence and eat more cake - almost forever if I let her. Or at least until OM has a good job and she has citizenship and the conditions are good for her to make the leap to OM's side of the fence.


Sounds about right.

Well... that's enough for now. I'll try to respond to the rest of your comments later.

-AD

Hi, AD.

On the trip, ask her if she wants to do both, as a family. If she does, then tell her before you go, that her contacting the other man is unacceptable. Tell her that you really want to do this with 'your family'.

If she contacts other man while you are on the trip, you pack up and bring them home. Otherwise, have a fun time with your family.

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Please tell me what is your definition of "power play". Is it wrong to have power over one's own future?
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The power play that I see has to do with it's use in the dynamic between you and wife. Why don't we let this one sit for a while and come back to it a bit later.

Quote:
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Well, I've been at this for a long time. She promised NC. I told her I would wait for her citizenship. She went back to contact, and I pressed for D. Is that not something a little like a boundary? Right now, I'm back into the wait for CZ mode.
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Once the confrontation is done, and she has a couple of days to digest the information, you will want to ask her to stop all contact with him, forever. What you offer in return, is that you will be the husband that she needs, and learn to meet her needs. Again, no threats, and don't expect her to be all convicted, contrite and repentant.

Instead of trying to enforce no contact this time, you set real boundaries.

You already have the divorce ready. The question becomes; how do you win her back, set boundaries, and convince her that you are not making threats to control her. That is what you are facing.

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Just yesterday she was saying it will be 10 years before he can support her financially in the way I do. But, Gimble, OM has been a part of our marriage from the beginning. He has always (except for about a year while W as prego and shortly after), been out there - on the phone, email, postcards with cute drawings etc.

BTW. She assures me that she is long past the stage where making cute drawings impresses her. She wants a man who can take care of her.
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I believe financial, and physical security are her top needs. That is pretty obvious, even reading through the other man diatribe.

I know you have probably done this before, but ask her what it would take for her to never see the other man again.

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Oh, I never thought that. Rather, I think she will string me along and sway back and forth on the fence and eat more cake - almost forever if I let her. Or at least until OM has a good job and she has citizenship and the conditions are good for her to make the leap to OM's side of the fence.
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Exactly why you are going to address your issues in the marriage and prove in a very short time that you are the man she chose, and the man she still wants. Then you are going to let her choose, once and for all. This isn't going to take long. She won't respect that, and she won't respect you. She has had her cake. You are playing for high stakes this time. This is Ender's Game.

If I recall, you said you had until October. I think you need to be done with this thing by the end of June.

Gimble

Gimble,

I think you have given me some useful advice - and I thank you for that. I've been on MB forums now (on and off) for almost 4 years and I think that in this latest dip in the MB pond I've picked up some useful perspective - but now I think that for a number of reasons it's time for me to gently wave good-bye to the MB forums - taking your advice along with me - which will affect what I do.

Weaver,

Thanks for your constant encouraging words. I hope you are right that this family can be preserved. And I hope not only preserved with something like formadyhyde but invigorated. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

2Long,

Thanks for your good cheer and interesting perspective.

And for the other "contributors", some of who's names flash across my mind but to whom I do not know what to say, I only say best wishes to you and your families.

I'm leaving the MB forum mainly for 2 reasons:
1) I could use the time I spend on MB forum in a way which better serves my goals of saving my marriage - especially to focus on my work when I am in the office.

2) W does not know that I post here - and she is very jealous of her privacy. If she knew, she would not approve - and not only that - it would make her very angry. I have had a long run of luck, but if I want her to live a transparent life, I need also to have no secrets from her - even if those secrets are secret ways that I seek to heal our marriage.

Thanks again, and, surprisingly even to me, Good-Bye!

Farewell! Adios! Proschai!

-AD, formerly known as AbandonedDad