2Long:

I hope you come back.

I've not kept up with the details. I feel like I'm just getting to know you.

However, I can really relate to you. I know why now after reading CSUE's post about your WW.

I was just thinking yesterday that your WW is alot like my FWH and I didn't even know about her history.

I just want to throw in some of what I've learned. Just want to see if it fits at all here. My H definitely was, at least, emotionally abused. I don't know the whole story. So he has lots of issues, issues that he has refused to deal with in therapy. I think of him as being an emotional cripple. He needs lots and lots of attention, affection and understanding because of his years of emotional deprivation by his mother.

Well, I took him on as a cripple about 30 years ago. Why should I expect him to change now? What I've learned is this. This is what sounds like your W. He has low emotional intelligence. He finds it hard to talk about his feelings. He finds it hard to hear me talk about my feelings.

HE IS A MAN OF ACTION. HIS ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN HIS WORDS. I am intuitive. He does not know this about himself but I do.

Your wife is AFFECTIONATE towards you. THAT IS A SHOW OF LOVE. Your wife is participating in the renovations. SHE IS PLANNING TO STAY WITH YOU. She may not be able to say how she is feeling. She may not even know how to do this.

When I was saying do something different, I really was thinking of you DOING SOMETHING. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS to her, I think. That's what happened in my case. I put my house up for sale. See what I mean?

Does any of this fit? If it does, we can go on with this conversation.

Alot of folks may not understand being married to an emotional cripple. A lot of folks may not stay married to an emotional cripple. I made that choice.

I had forgotten this:
"His wife is carrying an invisible elephant on her back, 2long is carrying both his elephant and his wife's elephant on his back."

Again, it seems that 2Long and I have another thing in common.

I agree with this:
"an 2long force her to deal with her issues? No, however he can focus his energies on him - with the help of an IC, he can learn what his boundaries are, his timetable, and he can communicate these to her with peace and love."

My suggestion for you: refuel and carry on 2Long. You will know when you cannot refuel any more, you will KNOW. Until then, refuel and carry on.

Even if you end up divorcing down the road, I don't think you'll regret your efforts--I don't. When I KNEW, then it was just a matter of waiting for the day I could file. No more hurt, just apathy while waiting. I don't think you're there yet 2Long--and I hope you don't get there either <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Take care

I understand this mimi:
"Alot of folks may not understand being married to an emotional cripple. A lot of folks may not stay married to an emotional cripple. I made that choice."

I made that same choice--until his methods of avoiding dealing with his elephant became torturous to me (as in severe emotional abuse, terrible verbal abuse, and occasional physical abuse when I wouldn't "shut up" about how I was affected by his actions).

2Long, you aren't there yet are you? Refuel good man, refuel and carry on.

Now, refuel with what? Didn't I ask that before? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sure wish I had any ideas for you but I don't.

Take care

You're rignt,Loving.

This Goddess has drawn the line in the sand! No further emotional abuse. He is aware that he can go there, regrets it when he does, and backs off when I yell FOUL.

That was the value of PLAN B for me. He knows that I am able and willing to move on. Like I said, it was a choice that I made.

I agree with 2's need to refuel. I'm constantly having to gas up, each day......

Mulan,

This is out of line...you said -

I still think you are doing this so that one day you can get the ultimate revenge by coldly turning your back and dropping the D-bomb on her when she doesn't know it's coming - and then staying out of reach while she struggles to cope so you don't have to deal with THAT, either.

What you said above is inappropriate - you should have stopped posting to this thread before you wrote it.

***What I have learned about his wife over the years is that she is a survivor who has overcome tremendous hardships as a child. Many people in her situation are not functioning members of society.***

Okay -- so someone please explain to me how it helps an emotionally damaged woman to be kept from knowing that her husband is seriously contemplating divorce.

***I have tremendous empathy for her and don't feel that it serves 2long's best interest for him to conjure up anger and "shock" her with it.***

I am not suggesting that she be met with "anger" in order to "shock" her. I am suggesting that she deserves to know the truth about her marriage, just like anyone else deserves the truth about *their* marriage, so that she can make decisions based on fact.
Mulan

Edited to add: CSue, I did not see your post before I added mine. You're right -- I don't usually post to 2Long and should have stayed out of this one. But I would still bet money that the situation you said was "out of line" is precisely what's going to happen, and I do not think that is fair to his wife. I think she deserves the truth instead of being kept in the dark, and I truly don't understand why it is somehow okay for him to do this to her when every BS here has complained bitterly about getting that same treatment from their WS.

That's all I wanted to say.

I think that it has been 2long who has been kept in the dark as far as his W's truth. She was able to live a secret second life for many years and much of her current behavior could be a symptom of same...at the very least...in her heart.

Although I get that she had a difficult childhood...but she is a grown up now and responsible for her own choices. I'll tend to have very little empathy for her until she can be remorseful, repentant etc. (about her A and mean behavior), out of the fog of the fantasy that she blames 2long for throwing a wrench into and disturbing.

I know that 2long still loves his wife and wants a more connected, intimate marriage with her. I wish that for them both. I wish there was a way for him to communicate to her what she is sacrificing by not being on board with wanting a better M than pre-A or having the ability to even see that it is possible with 2long.

Okay, I wasn't going 2 do this, because I pretty much agree with Penny Tupy that we shouldn't be talking about our Ss on MB, but 2 set the record as straight as I can:

How can I be "lying by omission" when my W doesn't even believe that's lying? How can I be lying by omission when I offered 2 let her read my threads 3 years ago, but she has never been interested? Heck, I even offered 2 help her set up a private account on our iloveulove.com forum, but she wasn't interested. She talked 2 Penny, but she wasn't interested in working with her/me. She's insulted that I do ANYTHING with any coach/counselor.

And that remark about dropping the D-bomb on her suddenly and leaving her 2 fend. What the hell is Plan B, if not EXACTLY the same manipulative,
controlling, cruel behavior??? ...and how many times have I said that I'm not going 2 do THAT?

My W called me last night (working up north for a 2ple days), and was "sweet" on the phone. She called this morning, and was sweet then, 2.

I realize that everybody is just trying 2 help me find a way 2 break the
stalemate and get back on track. I just really can't tell whether I'm setting MYSELF up for having the D-bomb dropped on ME. Remember my W's
remark, repeated many times over the past several months: "I'm just trying
2 get through this s2pid wedding". And when the wedding is over and we're back in our rut, she comes back from the conference with "I talked 2 [university in RM's state] about getting a PhD there, but I'd have 2 go live in [city] for a year 2 establish residency", knowing that RM has a business address in [city] and is in all probability trying 2 get in2 a PhD program there himself because he lost his credit where he and my W shared an office in grad school here, what am I supposed 2 conclude? Heck, he might not have been at the conference, but it is one that it would make sense for him 2 attend. They might not have conversed, but my W doesn't believe that would be secrecy, just a private matter between them that's none of my business. So, what am I supposed 2 think transpired? (and when I'm doing well, I try not 2 assume anyway)

The whole dinner conversation the other night was pleasant enough, but very much like a Twilight Zone episode because it was so like an instant replay of the same type of convo we had 2 years ago, when I thought for sure she was just going 2 leave (but when she called from work some time later and SAID she was going 2 do that and I responded with "I'll DV you", she chickened
out).

Has she gotten the courage up 2 leave now? Heck if I know. Do I have more courage than I did 2 years ago, 2 stand firm if she decides she needs 2 go live in the same town as RM and get her PhD over the next 4 or 5 years? Yes, I do. Do I want a DV? No. Have I "threatened" my W with DV? Many times.

My "plan" such as it wasn't, was 2 approach the problem in a manner similar 2 the way Spacecase did it 2 years ago. And that is, if I'm ready and see no other options, I will discuss it with her and see what she wants 2 do about it.

I won't plan B. I'm 2 damned old and been at this 2long 2 want 2 try that, however efficaceous it might be. I won't drop the "D-Bomb" either. It will be something we'll discuss and agree 2, if it comes 2 that point.

I'm going 2 locate some fuel, and see if it will burn.

-ol' 2long

"I'm going 2 locate some fuel, and see if it will burn."

I wonder why this conjured up a mental picture of 2Long sitting in front of a huge pot of baked beans with a very large spoon......and then being "jet-propelled" around the house???

You're a good man 2Long and you still have a lot left in you. How about some fuel with a little less protection in it? Not a lot less, just a little?

What do you think about rewording the fifth paragraph in your 4:06pm post and sharing your fears, your desires, and your hopes with your wife?

Do you have a friend nearby (does redhat live near you?) who could act as a support for you both during the convo?

Take care 2Long

Well, since Penny's "exposure" of her H to MB including his full name and other identifying details, I think your little discussion about your wife's behavior is a minor SYMC infraction!. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Don't you?

Pep

I won't plan B. I'm 2 damned old and been at this 2long 2 want 2 try that, however efficaceous it might be. I won't drop the "D-Bomb" either. It will be something we'll discuss and agree 2, if it comes 2 that point

With all respect, what, if anything, can be offered as a solution to your problem? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

It sure seems like a logical and reasonble guess that she may have plans to begin a life with RM in that city where the PHD program is located. Would she try to maintain a long distance M with you during that time? Knowing that she was fine with her secret double life for so long may lead one to think that she may try. It was an especially interesting conversation given the fact that she doesn't know that you are aware of his probable presence in that city. It would be a deal breaker for me.

She could be planning to D. I would think the finality of that is more than even she wants to deal with. She may prefer fence sitting. You've have a long history together and lots of stuff you'd have to work out for a D. I would hope you won't have a D-bomb dropped on you. I doubt she'd want to be seen as the bad guy by the kids so maybe she is trying to drive you to be the one to file.

It is nice to hear that she can be sweet to you occasionally.

It goes back to being as emotionally strong yourself for whatever comes your way by continuing to work on you.

Pep:

"Well, since Penny's "exposure" of her H to MB including his full name and other identifying details, I think your little discussion about your wife's behavior is a minor SYMC infraction!. Don't you?"

Um, yeah! I would LIKE 2 believe that I believe 100% in Peggy Vaughn's atti2de about how we deal with adultery in this country (or the planet) and how we SHOULD be completely open and honest about EVERYTHING, thus deflating the "romanticism" around affairs. But that approach puts people in a very bad light for a time and can cause real undue harm, unless EVERYBODY is on board with that degree of radical honesty. A lofty, but likely unattainable goal with 6 billion people on this planet.

So, we live in a world of measured radical honesty, at best, like it or not.

I hope your post is a vote of confidence in my degree of candidness without naming names. I think it is.

You've probably noticed I'm calling RM RM again. I've "shifted" my thinking on that from an almost new age atti2de 2 one that I believe is more a sign of "acceptance" on my part of the kind of man RM has chosen and continues 2 choose 2 be. He never replied 2 my email "confrontation" 2 him last year (not required). He printed it out and handed it 2 my W so that she could 2rn cold on me when she got home (I ac2ally thought I had cc'd her, but I didn't, and it must have been because she wouldn't have seen it until a week later, AND because I felt that it was a "private matter" be2een the 2wit and myself - but that's a rather cynical allusion 2 my W's definition of privacy and my disdain of it). He DID communicate 2 her (phone? email?) sometime after that that he saw what *I wrote* (one of Penny's form letters) gave him HOPE that they could continue their relationship!!! He's NEVER apologised 2 me and our kids for what he did 2 our family (and my W has never apologized 2 his kids or his xW - just demonized her).

So, RM it is, until such time as he finds a way 2 make amends and I'm satisfied with that. I won't be a "fast forgiver":

(sidebar: Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And Don't Know How: "I worry about fast forgivers. They tend to forgive quickly in order to avoid their pain. Or they forgive fast in order to get an advantage over the people they forgive. And their instant forgiving only makes things worse...People who have been wronged badly and wounded deeply should give themselves time and space before they forgive...There is a right moment to forgive. We cannot predict it in advance; we can only get ourselves ready for it when it arrives...Don't do it quickly, but don't wait too long...If we wait too long to forgive, our rage settles in and claims squatter's rights to our souls." :end sidebar)

RM can earn my forgiveness (or he can drop off the face of the Earth - equally acceptable). I won't set myself up for more disappointment by extending it as a ges2re of good will. That's what Jesus is for.

I can't use the name on SYMC, though, because it's "disrespectful" of his humanity, and I don't want 2 have 2 see my posts edited every time I refer 2 him (and I wouldn't want that 2 give the impression that I *do* respect him as a human being).

Pep, I got your message on... ..forgot who's thread and I still have your number. I may call you in the next day or 2 if it's still okay.

-ol' 2long

2l, I was thinking about you mate. Tough gig you got there.

No specific advice from me. My frames of reference don't even approimate yours. Do what makes you feel best about yourself. But do it soon.

{{{2l}}}

2:

You didn't respond directly to my post. I was wondering. Was I way off base?

I still don't think she has plans to leave or divorce you...

mimi:

Sorry! You weren't off base at all. I just haven't been on much, trying 2 get some work done (and for the rest of you I haven't responded 2, I HAVE definitely been reading everything and thinking...)

I think you're very nearly right on the mark about the similarities. But I think that I'm not all that in2itive, and maybe that's difference is 2 my detriment here. I really like the term "emotional cripple". I've never heard of it before. Sounds better than "broken moral compass" or similar labels. But do you view it as a similar term in meaning? I'd like 2 think about that some more.

So, combine my W's *usual* keen insight (she used 2 finish my sentences for me all the time - sometimes 2 my annoyance) with my underwonderful (subspiffy?) in2ition, and my problems are a little harder 2 deal with, for me.

Interestingly, I just realized that my W stopped finishing my sentences for me some time ago. I can't even remember whether it was before or after d-day. I do remember having an argument about it at one time (probably after d-day) where I corrected her impression that I was annoyed when she did it because she was right, by saying "no, because you were usually WRONG, and it takes me 2long 2 formulate a response". I hope she didn't take offense 2 that, as opposed 2 learning something about me from it, but I don't know.

...got distracted by someone coming in and asking me something... I'll post this and look at it later...

-ol' 2long

mulan..

I can barely grasp my thoughts around what you are saying to 2long....and I realize I'm not the brightest...

I find your post astonishing....

that 2longs minimal at best contemplation of perhaps a divorce is somehow an act of cruelity....
and that he should be for some unknown reason be denied the option to even lay out all kinds of plans on the table and look at them...

that that is equal to dishonesty and cruelness makes no sense...

from what I have gathered is that most attempts that 2long makes to engage his wife in anything be it trivial or huge... receives at best a minimal luke warm response from her...

and she is not so 'emotionally damaged" to be unaware of her actions and their affect...

2long all along has asked her to join him some counseling every way imaginable....

she chooses no each and every time...

and no matter what he does decide...I'd bet any color converse color under the sun that it's NOT a knee jerk not well thought through plan....

she's not sitting there thinking everything is peachy keen and that she's such a good and wonderful wife to him that if he mentioned divorce she'd faint over in shock...

she knows exactly how cruel she is ..
and she chooses it over and over again...

and I don't care how terrible anything in her past was...
it does not excuse bad behavior....

she won't even give the decency of agreeing to no contact..she's so far agreed to temporary no contact with no need of accountability...yeah that's a good behavior choice....
that shows compassion...
and to turn this around on 2long...
wow.....
that's pretty unbelievable...

people should be allowed to use this board to explore avenues...without getting blasted for not filling in their spouses....on their contemplations....

and that's all 2long is doing...
no different than anyone else...

ARK

I'm sorry I posted to this thread. Maybe I should just rename myself "Lemonman Jr."

2Long, I hope things work out for you someday. I really do.
Mulan

2 long:

What was I thinking? I need to clarify that I don't think that your WW's meanness or deceitfulness are excusable because of her emotional issues.

I am offering another way to try to understand her. It's OK to empathize with someone without condoning their bad behavior.

Although my FWH is a man of action, most of his actions now are aimed at showing me how remorseful he is and how afraid he is of losing me.

REFUEL, FOCUS ON BUILDING YOUR OWN EMOTIONAL STRENGTH!

sorry mulan..

But i don't see where what lemonman does has anything to do with you....

and though I am a great champion of this being an opinion board and people being free to post how they see things...

and I DO appreciate when people see things from different angles...AND I do believe that when peoples opinions are off...they should be taken with a grain of salt or ignored..

but it is my opinion that your post was downright cruel...

which is just my opinion...
but to say that 2long comes here and complains mightily about his wife and contemplates divorce here..is pretty far from the reality...

and to call him a
liar
and
unfair...ain't nothing fair in affairs....

2longs updates are few and far between...
and gosh knows he himself holds back from saying anything real negative about her.....just reports her responses the good and the bad....

and to say he holds on to the divorce plan as some ultimate revenge is just wrong as this is the guy that can barely tolerate speaking the words plan B....

so mulan my point is ...
and though I realize that 2long or anyone else here doesn't need me to butt in...
is that whatever value and good points you may have made...were lost in all your disrepectful judgements...

your style of that post surprised me....and I am not sure if you can see it as I do...
which doens'nt mean you have to agree with me...but I'm not sure you realize how it came accross inspite of your points

ARK^^