gingersnap...

my appologies for the late response... i just returned from a hike on the A.T... no comptuers allowed out there... thank you for the compliment... i have been around here for a while, but i don't post that often... as there are many other MBers here far more qualified that i to offer advice... and i don't have any children... but i am very glad to offer support and my expereince... i can tell you what has and hasn't worked for me and i hope that helps... i will say that i have been married twice already in my short time on this planet... i was tragicaly widowed from my first W, and my 2nd W left me (9/03) for someone else, just shy of our 2nd anniv (8yrs tog.)... i can't say that i have not made my share of mistakes in life and M... but i have learned a great deal from all of them and that is my payoff... i have learned about forgiveness and what it really is and means... i have embraced God and the Bible much more than i have in the past, and i am not ultra-religious... i have learned how to recognize when to take a step back... to recognize when my emotions are becoming detrimenatal to me and a situation... for me, self-discovery, getting back to nature, and trying to live as close to zen-like existence has helped me gain control over myself... and, we are the biggest trouble makers in our own lives... many people over look zen or poo-poo it as fortune cookie babblings... but it is much more than that for me... it is such a basic and fundimental way of thinking... the world is so complex sometimes, ya know?... and it has worked for me...

what hasn't worked for me: trying to make total sense of what STBXW is thinking, or her actions, or her words, or the whys... trying to be a priority to someone who thinks they don't have any priorities... trying to be a wife to myself... fighting fire with fire... hanging on to what was... being vindictive... following bad/negative advice... the list goes on...

so, what is making you crazy over there??? but i should really be asking you, "what is your happy thought"???...

Zen Clrarity:... be clear in all things. as a calm pond reflects the full moon, let your actions reflect your speech, and your speech reflect your actions...

and here is a samm'ism... our attitude towards relationships is likely to be more important than the relationships themselves...

probably get the 2x4 for that one...

Hmm. I think Samm it depends on what you mean by attitude. I think really it is much more about our attitude towards ourselves. I don't follow Zen. However, I do believe it teaches some really good principles. Not to fight against the Divine pattern. It's hard to figure out the pattern. I think it also means accepting that others' ways may be totally different from yours, even toxic to you, but that doesn't make them wrong. Although some behaviors are WRONG, yet they work for the people who do them for some reason. Ultimately, we have a choice to make about what we want for ourselves and what we are willing to sacrifice.

It took me a long time to work through the anger and hate, and it came back in January when I started MC again, but once I stopped I was able to forgive and live.

Sorry if I'm rambling. Spring insomnia.

g.g.

... i have read and followed many of your posts and i always appreciate your points of view... and i agree... the attitude that we have towards ourselves is pinnacle... and that attitude spills over into my attitude towards relationships... i didn't always have a good attitude about either, but i do now... trying to be as zen-like as i can helps keep me grounded... the Divine pattern is difficult to figure out... just knowing that there is one, is half the battle, IMO... accepting that others' ways and thought processes were not 'wrong', was a very important, yet difficult, aspect of my journey... at first i had to be very consious of my thoughts, words and actions until it became a natural part of my life... i had to un-learn, so to speak... and the 'choice', i agree, is ultimately our own...

i hear you about the anger and the hate... it took me a long time,,, and a lot of IC/(solo)MC/ and self-realization/education... only to relapse several times... but at the end of the day (and the process)... it 'was' forgivness that open the door to 'living' for me, as well...

just as background info... i was never truely afforded the opprutunity to attend MC with my STBX... she stood me up on the first session... went out to dinner with the OM instead... and never returned home...

sorry if I'm rambling... been off the beaten path conviening with nature too long, i guess...
... and i dig your signature...

I like the sig. I had before about shadows offending, but I was having an attitude day and didn't care what anyone thought.

I didn't know you'd followed some of my posts. I guess the more recent ones, based on your regi. date, unless of course you are an old timer recently re-registered.

For me a big part of forgiving was deciding to take care of myself emotionally. Once I decided I couldn't count on B. to take care of me, and I decided I was much better without him in my daily life, I was able to forgive. I'm not sure it's possible to forgive if you allow the person to continue to harm you.

Where in NJ are you? Newly's above trenton, Wish is furhter up. I'm West of Phila.

Hello Samm
It has taken me days to figure out this new program so I did not see this post.

Thanks for your thoughts everything helps.

I have come along way since d-day this is true,but I know I have a long road ahead.Right now my biggest struggle seems to be wondering if I am doing the right thing.I still hurt inside over everything and wonder does this mean its NOT time to let go.But then I think of my life w/H and all the pain and the final blow was his A.I do not believe it was his first even tho he swears it was there are to many signs that say it was not.So I say how much longer do I continue like this.We have been seperated for 9m and he says that he wants our M to work yet he makes no effort to rebuild what was torn down.

I am becoming stronger as a person yet lack the strength to totally let go.I guess this is the area right now I need the most help and support in.

I am sorry to hear of your M's and how they ended,sometimes it does seem life just is not fair.

I do not know much about the teaching of zen,,,,not sure what it is all about,I'm sure it is good,I am a believer and always had a very close walk with the Lord until about the past 2yrs when I just have began to question everything.I know all that is right in my heart and head but can not seem to make myself do what I know I need to.

I feel like I am rambling on now so I will stop.Thankyou very much for the insight,everything and anything is helpful to me right now.

GG... your sig is one simple word that says so much... i use it all the time... i have followed your posts... i have been lurking on this site since 7/04, but didn't register until 11/04, when my STBXW hit me out of left field, 14 months after she left me for OM, with the "i think i made a big mistake" speach, and i wanted to see what the MB vets thought... JL's insight and advice was on the money... needless to say, i tried to explain most of the concepts to her and what it would take to even attempt to reconcile (she was/is living with OM)... she said she didn't realize and was not willing to do that much work... and then she went dark... the grapevine told me that she was having trouble in paradise... so i am very thankful for this forum/site, as i feel it contributed to my salvation from making a big mistake by recognizing actions and not basing my decision on words and emotions... you and i are on the exact same page with forgiveness... i agree a million percent... i am right outside of new brunswick, nj... been in this area all my life... i follow newly's and wishiwerehome's posts (and many others), as well... i get to philly at least once a year... have to have a cheese steak fix, ya know... thanks for posting back...

gingersnap... this new program is a chalange, i totally agree... i am glad i can help you and kind of give something back, for this forum has been benificial for me...

recognizing the long (dynamic) road ahead is, IMO, important, as i really had no idea what i was in for... i often questioned myself, "was i doing the right thing(s), is it time to let go, were there multi As"... there were no easy answers... i did, however, learned how to recognize actions and rely less on words and emotions... but again, easier said than done... and i can also say that after only 9m sep'ed, i wasn't ready to let go in my heart, even though my mind was telling me there was nothing to hold on to... oh, that classic strugle of heart and mind,,, always a tough battle... becoming a stronger person was a gradule process for me,,, and i am proud of who i am now and that i am still progressing one day at a time...

i appreciate your condolences on my M's... my hind sight is keen and i realize that i am better off without STBXW... some Ms can't be saved, and some (like my 2nd) shouldn't be saved... and IMO, fairness is often a point of view, but you are definitly right... life is not always fair...

zen is like 5000 y.o. chinese philosophy... and once you learn it (sort of), you forget it... it becomes you... i too started to question everything the Lord had laid out for me, even the existence of God, when i expierienced a string of deaths and illness in the the family (my 1st W inc.)... it took a long time to come out of it, but i did... i can't say that i made myself come out of it... i more or less let myself come out it... and zen helped me by helping simplify my thought process and re-opening my mind... my STBX adimantly questions her faith because she had a miscarriage on our first conception... she doesn't think that there is a God anymore... the mis was where the M took the turn... she never IC'ed for it or any of the trauma in her life and she just shut dowm emotionally... refused to comm or do anything about it... instead, she supressed her feelings and poured herself into working 12 plus hours a day... after work, it was baseball and soap operas... i was the breadwinningmaidcookzookeeperwifetomyself kind of husband... and i really did try...

... now look who's rambling...

anyway... i hope my expieriences are benificial... stay the course and keep the faith... in God and in yourself... and balance will some day return (was that advice??? lol)...

zen destiny: you can look... and you will find it. you can not look... and you will still find it. that which is yours will surely come to you...

Thanks for the response,it is always helpful to hear of other peoples journey down the road and what helped them.

This MB board has also been my saving grace thru it all.I have just recently came to this part of the forum,I was on JFO for a long time,moved on to the recovery board and then back up to JFO where my old friends and support were.Now here and once again I am finding the support helps.

What you say is true,makes sense to me and is all things I have thought about before.

Moving forward has proven to be the hardest challenge so far in life for me.In our M things were never talked about,everything bad was swept under the rug and brushed aside there for they were just waiting to come out one day and show their ugly faces and it all did on d-day.

I told my stbx that if we did this again w/his A it would surly kill anything that was left of our M,and it is doing just that only problem is he cant see it.He chooses (much like your stbx) not to see what is going on.He sees nothing wrong with us living 150miles apart,not seeing each other or not talking daily or sharing things of life.If I allowed it he would live like this forever.

I often wonder how do you deside when a M should be saved or when it should not??

i mostly hang out on this forum... but i check out gq2 and poems regularly... just making the decision and gaining the determination to move forward was, indeed, one of the most difficult chalanges of my life... and one of the most metomorphic expieriences... rug-sweepers... my stbx was/is one of those... very frustrating, as i tend to be communacative... she wasn't always that way... as the years marched on she wanted less to do with anything that was not based around her needs... turned into a pure taker... and from what i know now... she has not changed one bit...

my d-day was kind of a-typical... stbx had left the M house to stay with a friend... i received the phone bill a week later and his number was all over it... plenty of unattractive faces emerged... she denies that she had an A becasue she didn't start her new R w/OM until after she left... but she works with OM, so it was probably brewing for awhile... and she is still M... my stbx did not want me to fulfill her ENs... told me she had no priorities in life and that she "lives in the moment"... big red flag there!!!

eyes wide shut... i know it well... mine is still very foggy... living so far apart, IMO, is not at all good for a healthy R/M... mine, like yours, would also allow it to go on forever, if i allowed it... but i refuse to live in limbo... static... w/no forward progress...

how did i come to the decsion that my M should not be saved....... i will tell you it was a long process that did not occur over night... well, 14 months after she left, she came to me with the "i made a big mistake" speech... so i removed my emotions from the situation and had her explain to me what was going on in her R w/OM... low and behold, the promblems and reasons for OM's and her unhappiness were the same reasons that i/we were unhappy... she had not changed at all... she just traded one for the other... she continues to be a very selfish person, when it comes to romantic Rs... and i still have feelings for her, but i will not use them as a basis on which to decide to sacrafice myself, when everything i know leads me to believe my sacrafice will be in vain... and the fact that we never had any children made me realize that i would rather be happy without her than unhappy with her... and somewhere out there may be a person who would appriciate someone like me... i went back to the rules of time and money... you can get money back, but time is gone for good... like i said, it took alot of work on myself and time... wasn't easy, but it is what it is...

hang in there... it gets better...

WOW great response things I needed to hear.
My stbx also is very selfish and I could write a book on things he has done just since d-day.I once said to him lets forget about our life before your A,lets only talk about life since the A and you tell me what you have done to make me,our M and family a priority.Guess what there was nothing he could say,I told him of how he tried to smooth things over by giving me a diamond necklace,no thanks that wont work w/me,I told him of forgotten aniversaries,forgotten birthdays and selfish rude remarks to me about the things I tried to do for him on such occasions.

I have tried to look at my stbx as someone I was meeting for the very first time.Would I even concider him by physical apperiance,the way he talks to me or treats me and the only answer I can come up with is "NO"!!

I know that I must let go of how my heart feels,knowing deep down I will always love him and move on.Hoping and praying that God will send a special someone into my life at the right time.Like you said someone that will love,cherrish and protect someone like me....

I went out to dinner with my SIL and D yesterday and as I looked around at all the elderly couples(we live right by a retirment(sp)community)I realized why it was so important for me to be in a relationship...........I dont want to grow old alone,I want someone to help me when I cant see the menu,to hold my hand when I step off the curb,to look at me and still see the lady they fell in love with so long ago.I dont want to be sick and all alone,I dont want to depend on my kids to take care of my needs after all they have lives of thier own.I dont want to grow old alone!!!!!

Somedays like today I just cry and wonder why life is not fair to those of us who have tried so hard.

i tell it like it is/was... i have considered truth the corner stone of my recovery... we could probably write a very simalar book... and in fact, i have been considering it, as i have kept a daily journal since she left... the entries are marked by the number of days since she parted... 565 days as of today...

i have never been one to appreciate material things, like jewlery, as a way to ask for forgiveness... the gesture is nice, but i think it is a bit misdirected... and to me, it is a little insulting to think that you can just buy my love or forgiveness... IMO, that must be earned with actions and thoughtfulness, like remembering important dates, fulfilling EN, and being honest and being there... priorities... oh, man... that has always been a sticky subject within my M... my stbx told me she had no priorities... in the next breath, she said besides going to work (2 jobs, by choice)... she lives in the moment... that is something i will look for in any future potential SO, and avoid like the plauge...

so you are saying that, if you met your stbx for the first time, you would not be interested in him... unfortunately, i can not say the same thing... stbx is a very sweet and giving person when you first meet her... then when all of that wears off, you get to see her selfishness... with me that took 6 or so years... for OM, it took around 9 or 10 months... but she is a very good manipulator... she can string you along,,, because she can be so sweet... but you know what they say about hind sight... and i when i achived clarity, i felt sympath/empathy for the OM, as he is a victim... of her and himself and their immorality... and on the day of attonement, they will be accountable for all of their actions... and that gets me up in the morning with a smile on my face...

as far as your heart... you are the only one who will know when you are ready to let go... my advice, don't rush it... it may instill a false sense... and if you relapse... it hurts much more... that is what happened to me... six months into the sep,,, we met to discuss recon and M... she said 'i don't think that would be a good idea, as i am not in love with you any longer'... so i told myself that i was no longer in love with her... but i was lying to myself... the relapse hit me hard when i saw her and OM out in the world for the first time (and she knew i was going to be where i was)... it took awhile to recover from that... but ultimately, it helped me in my decission to truely move on in my head and in my heart... i actually thanked her for doing that, though i don't think she understood why... and i have accepted that i will always have love for her... but that love is on a different level... it is not a 'wanting to be with her' type,,, more of a 'love for what we had at one point' and a thankfulness for all of the great memories, times, and feelings... it just isn't like that anymore... i have accepted... but it was not easy... and God will provide... trust and faith... and don't forget Zen Destiny...

i have observed the elderly couples, as well... i am amazed at times... i don't want to grow old alone either... don't know too many people who do... i put my trust in the Lord on that one... the Lord loves me... wants me to be happy... taught me all of the lessons that i needed to learn to sustain happiness in the next R... so that is where i have put my trust...

i remember the crying days and i still do cry sometimes... but it is the healthy kind now... life may not seem fair all the time and there are so many trials and tribulations... but the lesson that i have learned through this is to never loose sight of myself and try to retain clarity in all things... the suffering makes the good times that much better... you'll get it... hang in there... one day you will be clear... in heart, mind, and soul...

Well I guess I could say that my stbx is also very sweet when you first meet him but it only takes about 15min to realize he loves to talk about himself.He is a very giving person when it comes to money,he is there for you in a heart beat if he has it or not but I needed and desire so much more than that.Yes I am very thankful that he is helping me finacially or I would not be able to make it on my own right now but I also feel he does it without a fight because he feels it is part of his punishment for what he did.

I guess at times I think I should not complain after all I could still live in that relationship if I chose to.But you can only be told so many times that you should move,that we should not be together,in many ways as I look back now I see that he manipulated me into moving,he got his own way once again.It is easier for him to live this way then with the daily reminder of the pain he has caused.

Right now is just not a good time for me I think it is the season,something about it brings back all the feelings of right after d-day,I'm not even sure why.Maybe it is just something you go thru without any explanation to it.

I guess I am at a cross road,wanting to go on but its like I am at a fork in the road and more afraid of taking the wrong road then staying where I am.I have never been one to deal with change well,I am actually surprised at myself that I moved and got a new job with very little thought at all to it.I guess a part of me wanted to show him I could do it,that I could live without him.

I pray daily for direction but do not feel the answer coming to me,I pray for peace and strength but at times feel as tho it is a loosing battle.

mine mostly talks about herself, too... and mostly about work... very redundant... i love it when she tells me something for the 10th time and acts like it's the first time she has even thought about it... mine was very giving in the first 5, or so, years... then... pure taker in evey sense of the word...

it is good and honerable that yours is helping you financially... i think it demos compassion, which is a posative trait in my book... and as much as i recognize the negatives about mine, i have to admitt that she is not all bad,, after all, i did M her, and i saw something in her/us... i think she just repressed so much, it morphed her into a different person than i married and the person she morphed into, i would not have married... $wise, i would help mine when she would ask... but she does alright for herself (all she does is work) and shares the cost of living w/OM, as far as i know... and i am not going to support him... if he wasn't in the picture, i most certainly would never let her crash and burn, even though there are alot of people who would say, to heck with her, she left!(revenge is bad bussiness and worse advice)... so, my point is that i am glad he is stepping up, you deserve it...

manipulator... oh, yea... mine too... now, i did something similar (one of my addmitted mistakes), but those were the days before couns and self-ed... we had been struggling for about a year and through out the course of that time, i was trying everything i knew to try and open up comm and find solutions... and about 10 months into it, the frustration of not being able to open up comm (and the blank look on her face when we would talk) took it's toll and i said "if we don't solve our problems, or even try, we will end up in D"... well she left about a month after that... she told me later that her leaving was a preemptive strike, as she thought that i was going to leave her because i mentioned D... truth??? who knows... transgression of blame??? maybe... avoidence of the pain they caused (rarely EF/SF in my M-her choice)??? could be... somewhere in the middle, perhaps...

the change of the seasons does it for me, too... i think i have that seasonal disorder thing... i don't realy know, but DLST acctually brings me out... april is a tough month... 2day is the 10 yr. anniv. of my bro's passing... he was my hero and mentor... going to his site today to play some of his songs for him on guitar (we are a family of musician/songwritters)... the miscarriage happened 3 aprils ago... begining of the end of our M... i have a long list of events... you get the picture... i stay happy by surrounding myself with the good people in my life, honoring the dead, and forward momentum... i think you'll be alright, you seem like a person of strong will and resilliance... all good things, in all good time...

...ahhhh, the crossroad... i remember it well... i had and extended stay there, myself... i will tell you how it was for me... i think it was a matter of when the pain of changing was less than the pain of staying the same, more than it was a fear of choice... because i beleive, which ever path I would choose, would just be the path I chose... not necc right or wrong... but more of a choice to make the choice... to pick a direction and move forward... and now, everytime i do look back, i see the crossroad getting smaller... so that means that i am still moving forward... on the path i chose... thats my expirience at the crossroad...

dealing with change seems to always tough... once we get comfortable with something... i find now that i am not comfortable for long with anything... i redecorate and change things around in my environment on a weekly basis...

so you surprised yourself??? you mean you actually didn't think you could do it (move/new job/live alone)? or you just didn't know... there is a difference... there is a saying that goes... "you know what you know, you know what you don't know, and you don't know what you don't know"... i live by that... just currious, was he surprised that you could do it?

prayer is good... when i was where you are, i would meditate... at least 30 minutes a day... clear my head out of all the static... purge the emotions... i am so thankful that i did that... yoga was a help, too...

hang in there... my battle has come to the end, but the war will be with me for the rest of my days...

An old friend called today I had not talked to her since I moved.She knew my H.
She reminded me of who I am,and who he is.Altho she would never tell me to leave but in courage me to look at myself and stand by my side in any decission.

It was good to talk w/her,she can help me stay focussed on reality.

My H called today we are having an insurance issue so I was letting him know about it and so on and so on........anyway I asked him why he stayed M to me?? He said once again because he loved me,so I asked him what was love?? There is never any answer to that question from him once again I asked what was his plan of action for the future........still no answer.

So I have to ask myself today.......what is MY plan of action for MY future?? I must try and turn my thinking into not what is right or wrong but what is RIGHT FOR ME!!!

I know without some real changes in my H if we get back together it will be the same thing we have always had and I dont want that,not from him,not from anyone.

I think it is somewhat thera-putic just to log on here and write my feelings down,and read responses of what someone else is thinking,doing,has done,and has felt.
Thankyou samm for sharing this with me it is very helpful.

As far as me surprising my self.......yes I did.I never thought I would really do it,I did not think I was strong enough.I never thought I would file for a D but I did.Now it is finding the strength to have him served so that I do not have to wait around for him to mail the paper work in.There is still that small part of me that cant let go.It would have been easier if he would have just mailed it in and it was done.There is still that part of me that cant stand the thought of him having a life w/someone else.

Have a good weekend.I work saturday but have sunday off I think I will try and do something fun.

staying focused on reality was tough for me, at first... i was able to retain only one mutal friend of ours... the rest are still friends of hers... of couple of which (i found out from her) encouraged her to leave me... one is a co-worker (OM is also co-worker,,, very typical) and is the one that introduced her to OM... nice friend... IMO, your friend not encouraging you in either direction is good... the one friend i retained, nutured my negativity for awhile and enocouraged my anger... that was not a good thing for me and when i realized what was happening, i stopped talking about my M and my stbx w/him... i started to see things in a much better light... see that my stbx was a person and not the monster that she was being made out to be... the ability to forgive her soon followed... i feel that having good friend(s), like you have is very helpful...

my stbx would call me about ins issues or taxes or some bussiness... i would ask her why she wanted to stay married to me... her answer was never 'because i love you'... her answer was because she wanted to wait for the 18 mo no-fault period that our state requires... she did not want me to persue the infidelity or mental cruilty complaints, as she thought it would not look good on her record, or something... didn't want to drag out all of our M issues in court... my answer?.. whatever you want... and she got her wish... when it came down to filing, i took care of everything, as i had done in the M and after she left... when it came time to file, i gave her the option of being served by me or the sherriff... she asked that i serve her... we were supposed to meet at a diner and i would go over the papers with her... well, she ducked me for awhile... i would try and contact her, and she would not respond... i viewed it as another game and i did i did not get angry... after many attempts, i kindly told her that time was up... she agreed to mail coorspondence, and signed... maybe she just wasn't ready yet/still... but like i said, the crossroad gets smaller everytime i look back... i aksed mine what is love... i never get a straight answer... and 'plans of action' are not in the minds of those who live in the moment... but i always said... fail to plan, and you plan to fail (sort of like zen)...

plan of action:.. i had several plans of action that i set time limits on for myself, as i did not want to lie in limbo forever, but did not want to make hasty desicions, either... using the rule of time and money, i figured out how much time was expendible before i decide to leave the crossroad... easier said than done, but it worked for me in the end... so, yea... you have to ask yourself what is right and ultimately, what is right for you... you have good focus there, IMO... i think only the individule knows what is right, and when it is right...

real changes to get back to the same point?.. i would not have accepted the same point if mine demoed real changes... i would have looked for the willingness to learn how to improve the R and M... without action, insight is usless... i mean, wishing on falling stars has never worked for me... and right now your heart seems closed and your gaurd is up,,, IMO, that is normal and ok... i know that my heart will open again someday, and my walls will come down... when i am ready...

i, as well, feel logging on here and hearing other people's stories, tales of whoa, and triumphs, is very theraputic... any person, as long as they move about in the currents of life, is not with out troubles... Carl Jung said that... i have been studying psychology, on my own, to better understand myself and others,,, and i found that for me, Jung helped the most... and i am very glad i could help you... it also helps me, so thank you...

so you didn't think you could do all this and you didn't think you were strong enough... well, chalk one up for yourself... you should be very proud... in my exp, there are a lot of people out there who are not strong enough... i will say, i did not serve mine until i was totally ready... i knew in my heart it was time (i had let go already) and i was not doing it to punnish her or teach her a lesson... and i still can't stand the thought of mine with someone else (so i try not to think about or dwell on it) ,,, but that is reality and i have accepted it and it doesn't make me jealous or angry any more... and she hasn't changed... just men... so OM faces the challanges i faced with far less capacity and morality to do so... his day may come, as mine did... and i think he will envy me... or maybe already does... but that doesn't matter...

i hope you did something fun today... you desrve it and you should... i do what i enjoy all the time, now... i am so thankful for the gifts i have have been given to write songs and perform... i get a great satifacttion in entertaining others... it has helped my in countless ways...

hang in there... the answers will come...

Not from me! I LOVE your samm'ism! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

thanks, deja... i have a bunch of samm'isms...

here is a satrical one... i actualy said this to my stbxw the day after she moved out (was not one of my finer moments)...

"If you don't give up when the going gets tough, you'll have nothing to regret for the rest of your life"...

needless to say, it did not illicit a positive reaction from her... it was before i knew what 'reverse babble' was...

We all have those moments and I wonder some days if people like our stbx's even care........

I told my stbx once that it is impossible to hurt anyone with no feelings and that was just what he was,a person w/no feelings,no emotions.I still truly believe that.

i don't know if they don't care... it sure seems like that... i tend to think that it is due to being self centered and selfish... if it doesn't benefit them, they don't seem to pay attention... but, as soon as it cuts into something that is important to them... kaboom! then the teeth come out and the babble starts... logic goes into the toilet... and they try to drag you in by using what they know about your buttons, your sensitive buttons...

i covered all my buttons, after awhile, and used the same technique back... there is another poster on here... w.a.t., gq2,,, used to have a link to w.a.t.s. guide... helped me alot...

i used to believe that mine had no feelings and i said that ,too... but it didn't turn out to be true... more of a repression of emotions... oh, they are in there... like a shaken soda bottle that has been boiling in the desert sun... so i don't cross those lines anymore, as i am not interested in evoking any kind of response that would instinctively cause me to go on the defensive... my battles are over, though... yours seem to still be happening...

I love this one too - keep them coming (as far as I'm concerned).

a couple i inherited from my grandpa, then...

"when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging"...

"timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance"...

"meaness doesn't just happen over night"...