Hi Jen,
It really is good to hear from you again, and know that you are doing mostly well. I hope you don't mind if I say lots of stuff about what you said.

Do I still have dreams? Absolutely! I still dream of finding a loving man to marry and settle down and have kids with, travel with, and be a family with.

Write this down, or print it out, and put it on your mirror. Your unconscious mind will find ways to help you get where you want to go, if you keep the message in front of it.

But I do often try not to think about it too much, because I am afraid of ending up an old maid, and childless like at least one of my cousins who went through several long term relationships that just never ended up in marriage or kids. That's my biggest fear. I LOVE kids, and very much want to have a family someday.

I am serious - if you think about it more, it will be more likely to happen.
Not fearful thoughts:
"Nothing ever works out for me,"
But hopeful thoughts:
"What can I do to day to increase my chances?"


Hey, question for the guys --- would you find it intimidating to date a tall woman who owns her own townhouse and car? Would you date a woman who earned more than you and owned more than you? I think I scared off a couple of guys because of this, but I am not sure.

I am not sure either, not being there to watch the whole thing. Maybe I wouldn't know if I had been there anyway. WAT was right about this part - it doesn't matter why they left, and it is clear they weren't right anyway. You want someone that knows who they are, and where they are going, because that kind of person won't be bothered by the things you mentioned.


That, or they really wanted a ditsy short little blonde girl with big boobs that looks longingly at them and agrees with everything they say, and agressively plants a big wet one on them at the end of the first date.....NOT ME. lol

Again, if that's what they want, you would do well to RUN the other way anyhow. There are guys out there that are attracted to blondes, and guys that are attracted to brunettes. If you look around, you will find the one that likes you. We can talk about that.

I am fairly content with my life. A man will have to REALLY appreciate me and meet my needs in order for me to make room for him in my life. I will be choosy this time around, that's for sure.

GOOD. Be choosy.
Fairly content is good. It means you are living right (or mostly right?) , but haven't reached your goals yet. It means for the most part, you are doing the things that make a person happy.
It sounds like you want to be the most important thing in the world to someone, and you want to be that for them too. I think that's the right direction to look in.

Gosh, as I read the way I worded that question earlier, it sure sounded quite shallow and conceited. I don't define myself by my possessions like my house etc., but the last guy I dated gave off the definite impression he was uncomfortable with the fact that he rented and I had a place of my own, etc. The obvious fact is that if someone is compatible with me, what I own or don't own doesn't matter, indeed, it's a question of whether we get along, can laugh and have fun together.

It is also a question of having the same values, same work ethic, same goals. I didn't think your question was shallow. You are looking for answers, and you wonder why these guys seem to fade away after one date. What you need to worry about is YOU, not them.

You are looking for a certain kind of person to marry. What you have to do is become that same kind of person. The best way is to look in the mirror, and ask what changes you need to make in you (and read those goals that you just put by the mirror) and then live like you WANT to be. You will attract those men that have the same kind of values, and goals, and you will have a chance to choose. If you have already made the changes, they you are in good shape, if not, keep working on them. All of us are works in progress, but keep in mind that you want to give as much as you are getting when you meet MR. Right, so practice who you want to be.


My girlfriends are worried about me talking to him, and really strongly suggest that I stop. Realistically, I cheated on him more than once, he cheated on me more than once (if you include our separation - although he doesn't believe that separated = married).....the relationship may have felt great at one point in the past before all of this mess, but it's doomed. You can't recover from all of that, it would always be a worry tugging at your mind.

We worry about you talking to him also.
Could you recover from all that?
If you were both serious about improving your selves, overcoming your weaknesses, and being a perfect partner, you could. I think you want to be this, and in fact are making progress. To me it looks like he wants to change also. It will take time - perhaps 3 or 4 years to know.

My one friend says that she sees confessing to cheating on your spouse as selfish, as a chance to wash your conscience clean while hurting the other person, and serving no purpose other than that. So her opinion is that he is continuing to attempt to hurt me.

Is that what YOU wanted when you told him, or did you want to get things out in the open, and work through them, and save your marriage? I think your friend is not always right, though sometimes I am sure this is the case. From the things you describe, he is trying to fix the mess he is in. Perhaps he will be able to, perhaps not, but it sounds like he is trying.

I know why I keep talking to him, I am desperately lonely, and he and I are able to talk at length about a variety of things. However, the truth is that I wouldn't ever trust him again, and he is a mean person who has a narrow mind about a lot of topics, combined with a bizarre immediate family that I could do without. I know I should look for someone else, someone better.

If there are things about him that you can't live with, and that you believe will never change, I suggest you avoid talking to him. I think in that case, it will only result in more pain in the long run.

I know I should take each day as it comes and not worry about ending up a childless old-maid because now my standards are too high. But I do worry. I am intensely envious of my married friends and their beautiful young children. Maybe men can read my anxiousness and that's why they are done with me after one date. Who knows.

I have thought about you this weekend. You have a lot going for you. It might very well be that you can't hide your anxiousness. You may come across as too intense. In that case, it would be good to meet people in a "non date" situation. I see you are in a running club, and trying on line dating. Both of those should help. There are other things you can look at -
1. I don't know if you are active in a church, but they often have singles groups with many people attending with like values.

2. Organizations that sponsor things you are interested in. Ski competitions, and like that. I mean get involved in hosting events, not just attending them. Work along side people, create friendships.

3. Ask Binder if he knows any single guys your age.
( You think I'm kidding, don't you. )

4. Take some classes at the University. I know there are things you want to know more about.

5. Volunteer at the hospital reading to kids, or in some kind of service. It takes your mind of your problems (because you will see those who have much worse ones) and you will meet people too.


I know it's probably better to be single than to be in a bad relationship, but I am sick and tired of being single, and the only hugs I get are from women.

I hear the pain in your voice, and I acknowledge it. Your feelings are valid, and I wish it was different for you. It must be very difficult to have gone from a loving relationship to being alone and have to deal with all the feelings that go with that. Remember some things with me.
Remember that only you can change this. No one else can find the right person for you, though many can help.
Remember we can't control the length of our journey, nor how bad the potholes are. We have to find joy in the journey, no matter how bad parts of it are, or the whole trip will be a waste. That depends on how you react to the pain, not on how bad the pain is. I especially recommend service for this part of things. Service to others is a wonderful pain killer.

I am a fairly busy person most of the time with work, with working out, with friends, but I had a lot of down time by myself this weekend, and it's left me feeling lonely and depressed about being 32 and hopelessly single. It's frustrating not being able to meet eligible men, even though I'm in a run club and have been trying online dating.

Two things -
Meeting people takes time, especially if you are being careful.
YOU ARE NOT HOPELESSLY SINGLE !!!
You ARE single, but it is not hopeless. NOT, NOT, NOT.
(SS calms down.)

Sorry, I know it's tough, but I see a lot to make me hopeful for YOU.

I think it's good to think about what happened, and why. I think it is good to plan for the future, but we live here and now.
Pay attention to where you are, and what is happening to you. I think you will see people around you that are better off than you are. I think you will see people that are worse off. Think on this one for a while. Some good thoughts will come to you.

Smile more -
If you can smile more, it will be because you are thinking of things to make you smile. If you can do that, you will be more apt to be in the right mood when you meet that guy you are looking for. What if you bump in to him and you are in the wrong mood?

Start looking around for him, he's out there somewhere.

I have a lot of faith in you, and I expect a lot from you. (SS smiles)

Besides that, I can sing some of the verses from "Oh Canada" from memory, and I haven't lived there since - well, a long time ago. What does that mean?

SS

ss......I read this when you originally posted it, annd considered it all very carefully. Thanks so much for taking the time to write me such a thoughtful post.

You were dead on when you remarked, "It sounds like you want to be the most important thing in the world to someone, and you want to be that for them too. I think that's the right direction to look in." That's exactly what I want.

The other thing that you said that really stood out to me, and has been on my mind off and on every since was this:


I know I need to change still and leave my bitterness behind, but it's still here in my heart, and I can't seem to shake it. I also have great difficulty trusting men at all, which means perhaps I come off as closed off when I meet them, who knows. Although, refusing to let them find out where I live until after a couple of dates isn't demonstrating an unreasonable lack of trust in my opinion.



Well, I have continued speaking to my exH on the phone against the strong opinions of my friends and family (who tell me to just stop talking to him already, and can only imagine him hurting me more, not being a changed man in any way). I did so again just last night.

We had some pleasant conversation about how he really would like to go for coffee with me.....and maybe by summer we could travel together, and other somewhat optimistic remarks. He said he was having great difficulty coming to terms with the possibility of a life without me (this is oddly enough the first point at which he says he has imagined such a thing).

He also was trying to formulate a list of things I would be bringing back into the relationship. I literally mean things: car, house, a credit line I owe some money on, etc. Shallow sounding or what!?

We again disagreed about what separation is. I still believe that separated = married. He doesn't. He felt he was single the moment we separated and that dating and sleeping with other women while we were separated wasn't cheating. During the separation, he maintains that he only saw me during the periods when he and his girlfriend were broken up, that he wasn't seeing us simultaneously. This I have trouble buying.

I reiterated my fears about him being mean and critical towards me, and we ended up arguing. He says he was never mean to me, just that he was upset that I made work too much of a priority (didn't spend enough time with him, never should have continued coaching after school sports) and didn't change as he had asked me to many times, to become more domestic (clean the house more often, cook more often, do laundry more often, etc.) so when he pointed out angrily that I didn't change as he'd asked me to, that may have come across as criticism. He said things to me like "you're the laziest person I know," and "you're the most inefficient person I know," phrases that still ring in the back of my mind when I am struggling to get things done in everyday life. I asked him if and when I had ever criticized him, and he couldn't think of any.

He did point out how he thinks he's been nothing but kind to me since we've been talking on the phone in the past couple of months. But I can't seem to get this image of him out of my head, this image of him screaming criticisms at me when we first separated, and sometimes during our marriage.

Our conversation digressed into an argument over when exactly our marriage started to fall apart. He views it as being when I wouldn't change the way he asked me to. I view it as when he added a female workout buddy because I wouldn't change as he asked me to (I continued coaching after school, so he started working out with a female colleague). This is the same female colleague that a couple years later he fooled around with for months - his recent confession - and then during our separation he slept with her. I went on about how I should've puched her and told her to get the heck out of his life and made changes in myself, made him more of a priority, but he just got angrier and kept taking it as me accusing him of having started all the problems. We went in circles around this topic, basically digressing into you cheated first, no you did (not in those words), and just gave up and ended the conversation. I called him back 10 mins later and apologized for how the conversation turned into accusations, when really I was just trying to explain where and when I thought things turned south. He accepted my apology and then we both hung up and went to bed.

He had mentioned the possibility of getting together for coffee. I hemmed and hawed about it again, but I think I may just go ahead and do it. Even though all of my friends and family would be SO SO mad at me for doing so, I want to, I think I need to to satisfy my curiosity.

If he could treat me lovingly and kindly, we could be good together. Our common interests are endless.....I miss him so much in this regard. We were travel companions, movie companions, eating companions, ski companions, camping and fishing companions, and the list goes on. I just have real trouble figuring out how I could continue to have friends and be with him. They all think he is so evil.

I know I should do what I think is right and best for me, but if all of my friends and family (with the exception of my brother - he thinks I should get back together with my ex) think he's bad news and I'm better off alone, I am incredibly nervous about trying to be with him again. I fear too that he won't want to have anything to do with my friends (they are my world now), and that he will ask me to stop exercising with friends and do it only with him, etc. I have this faint memory of him being controlling (I wonder if I have stretched it out of proportion in my memory), and fear being isolated with him, without my friends.......

I have written a near novel here.......I guess I am venting and rambling hoping someone will take the time to read it all and let me know your take on all this. I don't know what to do next. I know in my heart I want to try meeting him for coffee. But I know that if I were to confess that I have still be talking to him on the phone to my friends and family, they'd be appalled, let alone if I told them I intended to meet up with my ex.

Sigh, it would almost be easier if he was still with that awful girlfriend, then I wouldn't be torn like this,

Jen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Question 1 single choice
	Yes, go for coffee with your exH.
	No, don't go for coffee with him.
Votes accepted starting: 04/20/05 08:09 AM
View Results

Isn't this the entire problem though? I mean, hasn't he shown you over and over again that he cannot or will not treat you in a way that is appropriate...with love and respect?

If one of your good girlfriends treated you the same way, how long would you continue the friendship with her?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi Jen -

I think you're being foolish seriously considering spending any time with him.

Dern tootin' you ought to be incredibly nervous.

But I disagree with your friends and family - you're NOT better off alone, you're better off WITH A GOOD MAN!!!!

I've got an idea - instead of meeting your XH for coffee, ask Binder to meet you for coffee. Don't you guys live in the same cold city? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> He's not yet available, but I bet he's a dern good man (and he fishes, too) and you'd at least have a starting point for a reality check.

Binder?

WAT

Jen.....I don't know how you figured out WAT's username and password, but you're obviously a very clever girl!

I'm still married Jen and thus a meeting, no matter how innocent, would make me uncomfortable. Maybe this fall if, as expected, I'm single we can get together on "the Ave" if you still feel the same way.
































































poor girl.



























































she's smitten.









































Binder <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Jen, Jen, Jen...


Well, *I* don't think he's evil at all.




...but I *DO* think he's rather s2pid.



...was that a DJ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Well thanks for making me laugh folks, really.

Susan - I hear you about whether or not I would even consider a friendship with someone who treats me like he once did. That's why I walked away and filed for divorce. Now he is showing hints of his old self, the one that actually was kind and caring at one time. That's why I am tempted at this point.

WAT - too funny, trying to turn MB into a dating service with you as the match maker, tsk tsk tsk! Binder, I wish you the best as you continue your marriage at least for the time being.

2long ... sure it was a dj, but who cares. You didn't say it to your spouse, lol. So you think he's s2uptid? How exactly?

After some thought today, I guess really our marriage started to fall apart because I took my H for granted and gave way too much of myself to my job, and I didn't show him enough admiration or appreciation. So, he sought it out in a convenient female work companion. Then I got jealous and cheated on him as retalliation. Very childish, I know, but we were at a stalemate of sorts, he refused to give up the female friend unless I was willing to give him more time with me, and I didn't make that change.....so I guess really *I* was the one who started the downward spiral of our marriage, and put some of the bigger nails in the coffin too.

I just have real trouble imagining us getting to a point where we really love each other again, and can forget all the hurt we've caused each other....I would sort of like to start fresh with someone who just thinks I'm great, not someone who can be a selfish, hurtful woman....although I would have to tell anyone new about my past, so there's a catch 22....but at least it wasn't them that I hurt.

I digress.....my doubts are louder and bigger than my optimism for any sort of rekindled relationship with my ex.....but I am lonely....so he is tempting.

However, if it is as easy as it was last night to get into an unending argument....how would we ever be good together again?

Bah, I'm going to watch "America's Next Top Model" and avoid thinking about it all. Yup, you heard right 2long, I am consciously conflict-avoiding!

Here I go!

Jen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A couple pre-bed time thoughts.....

1. You know that relaxed, comfortable feeling you have with only your very best friends, where you know you can totally relax, be yourself and be accepted no matter what? I have that with my friends now, and not my ex. With him, I feel that I always need to be alert and paying attention in case he says something that could be a veiled insult, or could be a lie, or could be some form of manipulation. Not that he has demonstrated this recently, but there was so much of it for a while there, it's hard not to expect it.

2. He says over and over how he doubts I could let bygones be bygones and be with him. I am still too bitter and angry he says.

3. He still is worried that I am taping our conversations to send copies to his exGF. I made it bluntly clear that if that's his concern, he sure seems to be hoping to keep her on the back burner, even if we were to end up trying to be together again.

4. We both remarked how although it is lonely, it sure is a lot easier to live alone than to be with someone. You can do what you want when you want, without answering to anyone. It would be hard to give that up for both of us.

5. I now have a "here I am, take me as I am" attitude. He noticed it. I am not willing to kiss up to them incessantly to win their hearts, or be all careful about stating my opinions, etc. Maybe that's what drives guys away after the 1st or 2nd date.

6. I think I really need to be in a relationship with someone else before I could go back to my ex. But, only trick is, I can't seem to find anyone to fit that bill!

7. I was once one of the most optimistic people on the planet - now he says I come across as cynical and defeatist. Also an unattractive thing. BUT the last guy I went out with said he wasn't romantically attracted to me but thought I had a great outlook on life......I guess it depends what side I choose to show to people. The wall is up when I talk to my ex - I am fearful of him hurting me.

Enough rambling and using this post as my diary I guess. I am just hoping that by sharing my thoughts and emotions, someone can psychoanalyze me and help me figure out my needs or what's best for me!

Jen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Jen,

When are you going to acknowledge that it wasn't you that took him for granted - he took YOU for granted and is STILL taking you for granted.

When you believe you are worth being treated with tenderness and respect, you will no longer find this *#*$#$*^&^&@(*@$# in your life - there will not be room for self-abuse any more.

Every conversation you have with him allows him to justify his taking you for granted. And I am so sorry you can't see it. When you discover that value within yourself you will be able to see it clearly in what you post, let alone your real-time experiences with him.

Here's praying that you start protecting that woman in the mean-time.

Maybe this is what is keeping you from a new relationship.

By being completely done with your ex, your heart will be open. Closed off hearts keep others from wanting to get close to you.

I just wanted to say hello. I haven't been able to post because the system logs me out or looses my posts. Hope you have a great day.