WOE, I just wrote you the longest post, and the friggin thing got lost. I am so pissed off. I will try and write to you later and hope I remember what the heack wrote. I'm with SD, I hate this new site! CV

Hey WOE,

I recently found out my W was has been in contact with OP as well. It's pretty darn discouraging, but helps explain why the last few months have been so unfruitful. My heart goes out to you.

As for the logging off problems, well I followed all their advice on tweaking Explorer but nothing worked. I was pretty much ready to write MB off completely. I mean, the last thing I need is more frustration, right? Anyway, despite my sceptisism (sp?) I downloaded Firefox and have been using it. It's actually pretty good and my logging off problems are a thing of the past. (I still ctrl-C just in case)

dewt

Have you considered writing her a letter explaining everything you feel and how her actions [i.e. continued contact with the OM, and her unwillingness to talk about the affair] are killing your love for her day by day and that one day you WILL exit the marriage? I'm not saying that this action alone will cause her to change but it will be a heads up warning that she won't be able to ignore if the time does come when you pack up your bags and leave. Not to mention it will be one more thing you can add in your list of actions to save the marriage. I hope you give this some thought.

TMCM

CV, I feel so bad that you spent so much time on my case only to have it erased. Please look at Dewt's comments about his success with the instructions posted in GQ. Then you can come back and give me the condensed version. I tried to post last night at home and typed quite a few answers to your previous questions only to be knocked off. But at my office I have had no problem because I downloaded the "Firefox" and followed the other instructions. I was giving you my Top EN's. I'll look for you later and hope you don't get too discouraged with the site. I'm sure the moderators will have to take action and advise everyone how to simplify.

Dewt. You're very right. It is discouraging but not backbreaking. It does more to explain why things are the way they are then it hurts. In short it makes you feel like you're pissin on a bondfire. Glad to hear from you.

TMCM. First I'm sorry you changed your sig line. The other one was awesome. This one I'll have to let grow on me.

But your idea is excellent. I did do that once before and I was able to get her talking to SH. That would be well recieved because you get so much time to edit and nothing can be twisted into an attack. I want to say to you and all the others who have supportered me for so long that I sometimes feel I let you down. I never seem to do anything with all the advice I get and I well understand how I can frustrate people.

But yesterday I asked her if she still missed the team (meaning OM)and she said yes. She said she hoped they'll invite her onto another team. I simply responded; I dont. I mean she knows how I feel and doesn't seem to really care. It's second to what she wants. But I have a W who continues to correspond with her former lover. Seems pretty clear to me that this is inappropriate behavior. I will think about the letter. But I have printed my earlier post about "healing gesture" and it is not an attack but rather is complimentary for her deleting OM's number. This may be something I could attach to a letter. Not accusing her of continuing contact but rather stating how happy I am that she has ceased. It appeals to her conscience anyway. Welcome any thoughts and thanks.

WOE, I'm going to try again. It's not going to be as thorough of a response, but I'm really afraid I'm going to get knocked off again. DS forbids me to download firefox. For the moment my 15 yr. old rules over me when it comes to our computer.

Where do I start in this condensed version? Yesterday we had MC. H is reading "Torn Asunder" and mentioned something Carder says, which is the BS also has to take responsibility for the A. I have said on numerous occasions I'll take responsibility for pre-A conditions, but not the A. I then went on to talk about how back in the Spring of 2003 my dad's declining health and avoidance was bringing me way down. I knew it was so I was going to IC to help me. I said while I was doing that H was starting an A. Sometimes life is rough and I'm not sure what I could have done differently. MC's reply was, "CV, you are someone who doesn't avoid problems, but wants to face them. How you acted back then was well-adjusted. H's A was not the healthy way to handle things."

About a week before my dad died H, the boys and I went to the hospital. I thought my dad might die that night, and H admitted he thought the same. He was still being very cold to me. When we got home I went to the backyard, sat in the hammock, and cried. I didn't want the boys to see me. I then had this thought, "I am too healthy to be in this M." An odd thing happened. I began to laugh really hard. I'm sure I was going a little crazy. Here I was, really unhappy, my life sucked, in therapy, and I think I'm healthy. But ya know what? I was healthy, and I knew H wasn't. That is when I really started contemplating Ding H.

WOE, do you think H would have started to come clean in 1/8/04 if I hadn't sent him several e-mails telling him I can't live in this sexless, emotionless M anymore? Do you think he would have dumped OW who he thought ran his business and he was so in-love with, if I didn't tell him she goes or he goes? Do you think H would be talking to me about the A at all if I wasn't pushing him to, because he hates talking about it?

On Sunday I could tell I needed to talk. I went to H and told him as much. I know I'm not done cleaning out the wound. It started out shaky, then we both agreed to go to the park and plow through it. It went really well and I felt closer to H. That night he kept waking up with headaches and I could feel himn withdraw from me. That is the worst LB he can do to me. In MC H said he knew it was happening and why, but he couldn't control it. I become the abusive dad in his eyes, even if I'm being kind, and he then withdraws like he did as a boy and punishes me. The MC told him he has to just stop this behavior. At least H is aware of what happens to him. He has been all lovey dovey towards me since MC. He feels good now. I, on the other hand, feel like he's hurt me once again. This morning I told him I need to talk about it. His behavior damaged me. Would H rather go on like nothing happened? You bet! But I need and want an intimate M, and I won't lie about my feelings. I want him to be open with me also. I do believe we have had intimacy in our M throughout the years.

My point WOE is this. Do you want a healthy M? What is that to you? Do you think your W is magically going to start acting healthy, especially while she is still getting her OM fix? You are the healthy one here WOE. What are you getting out of allowing her to continue to abuse you? I rock the boat WOE. Maybe I will end up sinking it in the process. But I won't be in anything less than an intimate M. Either H will do what it takes to help me heal, and together we'll work towards recovery, or I guess I'll be a single lady again.

I'm not even going to spellcheck. I'm afraid the stupid won't go through. Your MB Bud! CV

CV, thanks for your uphill struggle to help me. On the computer note I think you need to further negotiate with your son about firefox. Maybe there are legitimate reasons regarding computer memory etc. but I think you will quickly grow weary of MB if you don't. But in any case I hope things work out in that regard.

Your comments are dead on. I am the healthy one. Being the lighthouse isn't enough. I suppose I need to be the foghorn as well. CV, I had a unique thought this morning about approaching this topic with W. It was suggested by TMCM that I write W a letter. I did before and it was effective enough to get her to speak to SH. But this time I thought I would start off by saying (please don't go nuts on me)that I met someone. And she is M'd and has 2 boys. We have shared a lot of support and discussed our spouses etc. And that she encouraged me to work on my M and to establish the same kind of conversations that I share with her to share with you. And that our conversations have never contained one inappropriate suggestion. But that I have learned about the highs and addiction of an A through these and other conversations. And that I would like you to meet this person. Her name is CV. And she along with hundreds of others have coached me for the past 2 1/2 years as to how best improve our M. And then continue with what I hope and dream our marriage could be.

First please don't interpret this wrong. I assure you that this is only to get W's attention at the beginning of the letter. I think it would stop her dead if she thought I had feelings for anyone. She is so busy with herself the thought that my mind could wander is not on her radar screen. I am open to suggestions and in the end I may do nothing but this is just something that I thought would actually be a unique and non confrontational way to get her to understand. As opposed to I demand you stop calling him or I'm gonna..... I can't go that path because I'm not gonna .....(leave or anything else particularly drastic. Although I have fantasized about telling OM that I held my W while we made sure she wasn't pregnant with his baby. Or that I know more about him than one straight man should know about another. I could so reduce him to ruble but I likely won't. He isn't the issue. But anyway I'm going out the rest of the day and would ask you to think this over. And I am happy to remove your initials or go in any other direction that you or others think might work.

CV, finally I want to say that I applaud your efforts to not accept less than what you need in your M. I think I have the same overanalytical problem that you have. I continue to look at this through every angle and it gets tiring but I know I won't be at peace until I figure out how to finally put this behind us. Have a great weekend with your family.

WOE

WOE, well you did freak me out, but actually before you mentioned me as the example to use with your W. I thought you were planning on making up an A story or something. I wouldn't use your intimate conversations with me or any other W on MB as the attention getter for your W. However, I wouldn't necessarily not tell her about me or others here either. I have told H about you and some other men here who have truly carried me since last year. I actually mentioned in MC what I wrote to you about being clear about what you want in your M because it caused me to realize I need to do the same. I haven't told him to make him jealous, but to try and let him know that this past year I have needed to be supported, and he was not capable of doing that in his screwed up state. I told him that I understand through intimate conversations with men here, and some situations with certain M pre-A, that it would be very easy to cross the line into an EA. That has never been difficult for me to understand. I have let him know that at some point I want him to be the one I am having these conversations with. So I don't have a problem with you mentioning to your W what you have learned about your ENs through conversations you have had on MB. Others might disagree, but I look at that as radical honesty. Just like H learned through his A that he has a tremendous need for admiration and loves being taken care of, I have learned through conversations with my male friends on MB that this kind of revealing intimacy is really important to me. So does that answer your question?

WOE, I actually have wondered why you don't tell the OM that you know about him. Why not tell your W that you are planning on talking to him? If she continues to call him why not be a part of the whole experience? I'm being slightly sarcastic here, but serious at the same time. I don't think there can be true intimacy with people in the M going undercover with their thoughts, feelings, and actions. Why not tell your W that? Why not actually begin to talk to her about your M, what you want and what she wants.

I'm being very hypocritical right now because I happen to be at a very low and tired point in this M of mine. I guess the difference between you and I is that I'm not hiding anything from H. He knows it. I wrote him a 16 page letter 3 weeks ago which I just gave him on Sunday. I basically told him that in order for me to heal he has held the medicine I've needed. I am at the point that I'm not sure the medicine is in his possession. Could be too much damage was done to us by this A. I just know I want to be happy again.

WOE, neither I nor anyone else on MB can obviously tell you what you need to do. You obviously love your W very much. I just don't think she is going to change without you changing and shaking things up a bit. And also by looking at herself and figuring out what's going on inside of herself. I'll go back to the "cheese" book and ask you if staying in that cheese station is getting you what you want? Hey, I'm talking to myself right now too. Take Care, and feel free to keep talking here. Like you, I don't have a great big support system outside of MB because I chose not to tell. That might have been one of my greatest mistakes. Anyway, hopefully we'll all get by with a little help from our friends! CV