Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
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MIL is going to be DS8's next nanny. THAT"S ALL I NEED
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You don't need this. Find someone else. MIL can't help but poison the water. It is the nature of the beast.

Quote:
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Should I send evidence of affair to OM's father?
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ABSOLUTELY!

All the best,
Gimble

This morning began better. WW packed her suitcase and got ready for the airport. I found one of her favorite stuffed animals for her to take back with her. She got sentimental this morning and said I deserve to be happy. She was sure she could love me when she married me 10 years ago. I was the perfect husband... etc. etc. etc. But she was still in Love with Ken. I told her I recognize that now. I was in denial when she would tell me how sad she was. I didn't know what to do. But finally, NOW, I know what to do. I know what I did to hurt your feelings toward me. I feel that I can fix those things.

She said that the OM was just a symptom of our problems. I agreed. But we can never fix our relationship as long as she's having one with the OM. Here it comes... READY



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> So three E-Mails a day isn't a relationship? Sleeping with each others intimate apparel and a piece of WW hair isn't a relationship???? Yes, we have a different definition. Didn't say it, just thought it.

She explained today that after the divorce is final, we can begin to restore our relationship again and maybe fall in love. But the divorce is a separation she must make (to justify her moral belief she's not really married?)

I hinted once that I might try to stop the divorce just to see what she would do, and she turned white. I laughed and said if you ask me the same question over and over again, I'm a little annoyed that the same answer doesn't satisfy you, so I changed it. I couldn't confront her in the middle of the airport with DS8 standing next to us. I'll do it by phone after I cancel OM's airplane ticket. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
She also commented that I don't think you can change it since you signed the Joinder.

I'll order His Needs Her Needs today. I'll also schedule one more appointment with SH to finalize my go forward plan. I saw the happiness we could have together this week with our son.

I need to be the clear headed one. So here we go. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote from SIS's wife"
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.... your actions traumatized us so much it pushed us together .....
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This is destined to become a 'hall of shame' classic. It belongs right next to "the devil made me do it".

Good one.

Kill the divorce Monday and be sure to tell her. She already has 'plans' to get physical. Don't wait. In fact, send her an email now and tell her you plan to kill the divorce on Monday.

Consider not reading your email or answering the phone until Monday afternoon.

I think it would have been nice to tell her at the airport, but I understand you wanting to limit fallout on your son.

All the best,
Gimble

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
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She explained today that after the divorce is final, we can begin to restore our relationship again and maybe fall in love. But the divorce is a separation she must make (to justify her moral belief she's not really married?)
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I wanted to expand on what it sounds like she is saying.

"I need to feel divorced so that I can do this thing I plan to do without all the guilt. Then you will take me back anyway, and since we aren't married, those things I did while we were divorced weren't wrong or cheating."

All the best,
Gimble

That quote was for you and WAT. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You know that fear I said I didn't have. It's gnawing at me this afternoon. DAMNIT! I'm still going to do it, but I don't like the feeling of apprehension. I'm going to read through Love Must be Tough again to wipe out the gnawing once and for all.

I don't want to fall into conflict avoidance. I need to find my balls I was telling a couple other guys to find last week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

NO %#$%&^ Enabling her damn destructive behavior!

When I do this she's sure to shreik to our DS18 who I've kind of kept out of the loop. Do I show him she's been lying to us with the E-Mails, or is that too much for him?
I told him to stay out from between us, but I don't want her to play him either.

SIS

Hi,Sleepless.

He is 18. If he asks a direct question, answer it. Other than that, I wouldn't tell him more than he might want to know..

You are going to need that brass pair. Get them and hang on. You need to do this thing.

All the best,
Gimble

Hi SIS,
I've been following your thread and I certainly am no position to give you advise on what to do. But....I noticed you said she has been contacted former SO's. To me it sounds like younger OM isn't cutting it anymore she is looking for reinforcements. Follow the advise you've been given, sounds like a huge reality check is just about to hit WW.

Take care. Stay strong.

Steve Harley noticed that she may be hanging on to old loves throughout our marriage. Part of the barrier to intimacy with me he thinks.

As long as we're on the subject. Should I notify all of the other men that they're other men. OM (19) is getting a message to his dad to prove extent of affair. OM (last boyfriend).... I don't know what he'll get. Maybe a warning that WW is not all there and is intimate with OM19. I actually like him, he's a decent guy.

OM (married w/2 kids) wife is getting copies of the E-Mails her husband sent my wife.

SIS is going Nuclear! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the advice on DS18 Gimble. I've been spoon feeding. There are some things he doesn't need to know about mom.

Last question. Do I send copies to MIL and FIL to make sure they know the extent of the deception just in case they think I'm just being mean or out of my mind with jealousy??

IMHO I would not forward more info to her parents unless this becomes an issue. Otherwise it may seem you are simply attacking her, and maybe even "out to get her". Plus, they may not appreciate the significance of the contact of the former SOs.

And yes, DS18 is probably already reeling from TMI (even when necessary)... he will ask when he wants to know, otherwise I would let it be. He is plenty old enough to have a good grip on what is right and wrong here! I am sure there is lots of anger & confusion on his part that Mom was having an A w/ a "man" his age!!

I have mixed feelings about notifying OM about OM... I think you may actually encourage "bad" behavior in some if they know that your W has willing crossed that line already. Then it may be "no big deal" to hook-up with her since she has already broken her M vows... kinda removes the dishonor for them... does that make any sense at all? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
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Last question. Do I send copies to MIL and FIL to make sure they know the extent of the deception just in case they think I'm just being mean or out of my mind with jealousy??
===================================

If you have already exposed, I see little reason to tell them more. If she leaves you and shacks up with the babysitter, then yea, otherwise, I doubt it will help your cause much.

If the in-laws ask a direct question, then answer honestly. If their actions say they can't be trusted, then don't tell them anything.

Good deal on other man's wife getting copies of the emails. That should make for some nice fireworks - be ready.

I wouldn't notify the other men that they aren't the only ones, at least not yet. Take care of the ones with wives or girlfriends, but wait for a while on the others. The exception to that would be if they don't know she is married. You would want to tell them that.

Don't forget the email about the divorce. I know you wanted to hear that :-)

All the best,
Gimble

OK. She's back in Europe now. She called and accused me of things. I didn't fill out some paperwork yesterday in her timeframe, so she just said, I can't be mad at you any more since you're not my husband. "Actually I am for a few more months." She's going to bed soon Gimble. I'll write the E-Mail then about removing the Joinder and contacting the lawyer, then I'll take the phone off the hook so we don't get 3 a.m. phone calls.

Thanks for the boundaries on the information distribution. It's very clear now that DS8 cannot be subjected to the alien's behavior.

Three hours to message distribution. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Sleepless.

Wife said " I can't be mad at you any more since you're not my husband."

Translation; "You can't be mad at me for what I am doing or about to do."

I know that stings really bad, I am sorry. Better to understand what is going on Sleepless, than to wallow around wondering.

Send the email now. Make sure you tell her that you not only find her assumption that you two are not married to be untrue, but also that is is no excuse for her to do things that she knows is wrong.

Don't accuse her of doing things. Do tell her that it is unacceptable for a married woman to have relations with other men and that she is still married.

Also tell her that you have no intention of divorcing her.

Please do this NOW. Don't wait. Don't enable her actions any more than you have.

All the best,
Gimble

Well I guess I am the only "chic" hanging with you on this, but I am very anxious to hear how things go....

And, really, this very second: The "Sleepless in Seattle" is playing on TBS here... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I love Meg Ryan!

Anyway... I see you struggling, part of you obviously does not want to hurt your W, and yet the only way you can protect yourself and those boys, it is exactly what you must do! You are doing a good job, you are on the right track.

Well, pizza just came (we are having a free-for-all sorta day and the diets start tomorrow!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Keep us posted.

FWIW, there are a lot of people out here who are pulling for you!!

This is going into her E-Mail box tonight. Comments?

Darling Wife I’ve been a little torn since we filed the paperwork the other day. At the time I was OK with it. Typical non-confrontational let you have your way to make you happy mode. But it hasn’t seemed to make you happy, you’re still tense. I also realized I was being selfish. Not confronting an obvious problem will not make anything better for our family in the future.

I told you yesterday a little bit how I felt. I think we are rushing it and not handling this the right way. You’ve said it has to be this way first and then we’ll see.

I don’t want the boys to think that it’s OK to just end your marriage when you’re not happy with it. I don’t want them to believe that if they’re not happy, they should go find happiness with another woman. They need to see the right way to handle conflict in a marriage. We’re not doing that now. I want them to know we told each other we’re not happy, but we cared for each other enough to find a way to be happy together. I don’t want to tell them in 10 years, I never should have divorced mom.

I don’t believe that this divorce is the right thing for us right now. I think we’ve finally gone through the pain we should have gone through several years ago to say we have a big problem, (yes you said it, but I hid from it or told you it was your problem) and there might be people smarter than us to help us address it. I looked at the money that it will cost for this whole mess and realized again that it will be easier if we honestly work to make each other happy. I know you can make me happy, and I know I can make you happy. I never had a way I thought we could be happy together, but now I know there is a way. Other couples have done it before us, and are happier than the day they were married.

I know this will upset you, but a divorce right now is the wrong thing to do. I know you think that OM(19) is just a friend to you right now, but any time you talk/write him, he’s filling a need that I should fill as your husband. Yes, I’m still your husband and will be for some time yet. I know you think (Old Boyfriend) is just a friend, but he’s filling an emotional need that I should be filling as your husband. Heck if you ever stayed in contact with (Older Boyfriend), he would be filling an emotional need too. You can’t be in contact with those men if you want to be in love with me. You can’t find happiness with your husband if you keep looking for it with other people. You told me yesterday I’m the perfect husband, but you didn’t have those feelings for me. If I let you go now, I can’t be the perfect husband. I want us to see if after 10 years we can be in love with each other maybe for the first time. I know you say you’ve been trying for 10 years, but I wasn’t trying because I didn’t know what to do. I do now, but we need to do it together.

I’m going downtown on the way into work tomorrow to withdraw my agreement to the divorce. I just don’t believe our differences are irreconcilable. You said you didn’t want to hurt me anymore, so let’s not hurt each other anymore.

SIS

I lost my cool last night. A guy can only be called a liar so many times. OK, she didn't use the word liar, she just kept saying I don't believe you. I asked her to go forward with reconcilliation by breaking off contact with the three other men. Which she said she couldn't do. After I hung up in frustration once, she called back and said if you keep getting defensive like that your website doesn't seem to be helping too much! Part of the problem was that I knew she was lying that she was not in contact with the OM because of the airline ticket she bought him for this weekend.

I sent a slightly revised note to the one above, and then took the phone off the hook. I also told her I was revoking my Joinder to the divorce.

I did that at the courthouse on my way into work this morning.

This afternoon I cancelled the ticket she bought the OM for this weekend I found on our credit card bill.

Her mom sent me an E-Mail asking what I was doing trying to push her away? I politely told her that Lirio and I had to work it out, and that I told my parents I would not accept any of their advice because you're all prejudiced as you should be. She said she wanted the best for Detlef and Damion too, which I told her was great to hear. Somehow I think she's trying to manipulate me, but we'll see.

I'll send WW an E-Mail tonight apologizing for the outburst, but explaining she needs to read through the concepts and we need to work on this together.

But am I jumping the gun since she's still got a rendevous scheduled with OM in Europe this weekend???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Gimble, I got my brass balls, and I did the right thing, but it does feel like I've pushed her farther away. I guess that's to be expected. I'll get a hold of the lawyer tomorrow after talking to SH.

First day back to work after a week and a half was crazy too! At least I can still see <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Sleepless.

You can't control her, but you don't have to finance it, or enable it.

You set a couple of small boundaries. She got mad. That is not pushing her away, that is something you should have done a long time ago.

She will at least respect honest strength and integrity. She is not going to respect you always being a facilitator. She is spoiled. You have played a large part in that. No offense intended.

If those credit cards are joint, you need to cancel them immediately. Let her pay for her own rendezvous.

You should have a joint account that you pay the mortgage, power and water from. All of your other funds need to be solely under your control. She will also get mad about that.

There is a big difference between a love buster and a facilitation issue. You can't trust this creature right now. Her moral base is not the same as yours anymore.

When I get a few minutes to spare, we can talk about how you are handling yourself with your wife if you like.

Maybe you should ask Bob Pure to define 'lovingly distant' for you.

I do think that you did very well revoking the Joinder and canceling the other boy's plane ticket.

On the rendezvous, unless there is a reason you need to keep it secret, tell her you know that she is planning to see other boy this weekend, and that it is wrong and you are very hurt by it. Don't be angry, preachy or try to teach her.

Make sure you tell other boy's parents what they intend to do before you confront your wife.

All the best,
Gimble

I just sent her a long E-Mail telling her the divorce is not cancelled just postponed. I told her I needed help with the reconcilliation. I explained I could see her hurt, can she see mine?

I told her I would trust her if she said she wasn't seeing the OM. Could she trust me. (Since I know that's a lie does it make her feel guilty or piss her off more when I reveal her deception?)

I told her I would call her in the morning.

SIS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

" just sent her a long E-Mail telling her the divorce is not cancelled just postponed."

Why?

"I told her I would trust her if she said she wasn't seeing the OM."

Why would you trust her?

SIS, a cheater is a liar. You can not have one without the other.

I can tell that you love your wife. The problem right now is that she is not normal. She is feeding a feeling. She will do almost anything to continue that behavior. That means; lie, cheat, and probably steal. It goes with the territory.

Here is what you need to ask yourself; "Why am I having such difficulty confronting my wife with truth".

You are not preaching at her, or trying to teach her, you don't seem to be able to even tell her simple truth without much crying and gnashing of teeth.

Plan A is about negotiating an end to the affair. You present your best self forward and fix your own issues. You do NOT become a doormat or an affair facilitator. It is not okay that your wife plans to do the other boy in Europe. It IS okay that you don't pay for it or facilitate it. That means that you contact his parents about what he intends to do with your wife and you telling your wife that you know of her plans. You do NOT have to tell her HOW you know.

If you don't want to deal with the facts of the affair, then don't snoop.

Don't tell her you trust her when you know you can't. Tell her the truth. It is her fault that you can't trust her. It is your fault that she can't trust you to tell her the truth.

I don't intend harshness with you, SIS. I just want you to see what this looks like from my vantage point.

All the best,
Gimble

Here you are right. I fell into the trap of teaching her, and she is not capable of understanding. I'm going to make myself a flash card! I am not telling her everything I know so I don't give up an information edge. I've even been careful of what I write here in case she was reading my posts as you suggested. Hey! I'm not crying. That was low. But I am grinding my teeth.

The call with Steve this morning confirmed I can protect myself more now and give up the be nice approach until she's ready to play the same way.

I no longer have access to our old joint Credit Card account online. So she knows I could see it.



That's the problem I wanted to continue to get details so I didn't want to show my whole hand. Steve said let her find out the tickets cancelled on Thursday. My feeling is that it will be harder for them to react and get another ticket at the last minute. She'll know soon enough, and she'll be pissed. That's not my problem.


That goes along with the revealing why I don't trust her. Like I said I wanted to run by SH when to let loose and show my cards. No offense, but I'm paying him good money! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

She's going to hit the brickwall of reality Thursday. I'm not contacting her anymore unless really necessary.

Part of the wishy washy in my postings goes to the fact that she could have been reading as you suggested. So I hedged my comments that way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your perspective. Let me know if my tone changes over the next week.

SIS

Did really well today. She is pissed. She does not like that I retracted the Joinder for divorce. She's getting a lawyer, but not telling me. She's trying to be nice (and failing miserably) until I bring our son back to her.

She blamed me for screwing up our chance at falling in love. She said SH was a quack, because a NYTimes article today found that Marriage Counseling doesn't work. I told her that would be a big surprised to all of the recovered relationships here!

It was like John Belushi's speach in Animal House. She was getting her facts all screwed up, but I let her go. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

She ended by saying we shouldn't talk for a little while. Probably because she and her OM would be busy doing stuff this weekend. She'll come unGLUED when she discovers I cancelled his airplane ticket!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Think she'll call? Am I enjoying this too much???

SIS