Hi, Sleepless.

Sorry I missed this:
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You'll notice I haven't told WW that I know about her lies. I'm not worried about her trusting me right now by deceiving her with the lawyer.
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Tell her that you know other man is there.

Don't tell her about your lawyer. Why do you think that is deceptive?

If someone is entering in the GPS coordinates for the place you are currently standing, preparing to fire a missile at you, and you are the one feeding them the coordinates, then are you not being deceptive or are you betraying the strategy to stop the war by giving away your position?

There is a difference between being deceptive, and not telling everything that you know.

You: "Wife, I know that other man is with you. Your actions are hurting me and your sons, who also know what is going on"

Wife says: "How the !!#@%^@%&@$*@@%$^@^%@&%@* did you find out?!! You are spying on me you (*&&%*(@%^@$ liar. I hate you. I can't believe you told our sons!!!! **&*7 you."

You: "Wife, I will not tell you how I know, just that I do. Our sons and I miss you."

Click

Gimble

Hi SIS!
Here are my opinions on your questions:

Agree with Gimble here (as usual!). Why would it be better? What she needs to understand is that you cancelled the ticket because you love her and you want your family back. ..it wasn't done for revenge. That's the key difference.


Good, that's what you want. Having an A and breaking apart families is stressful business. They need to deal with the realities of their actions at every turn. Their relationship cannot just be about lovey-dovey fantasy...there are too many lives at stake. They just can't see that yet. You are there to keep that in their face and make them deal with the consequences of their actions instead of the fantasy.



Tell who you want to tell to help you get through this. Just be careful to rely on people you know are compassionate to you and sensitive to your children. Nothing is worse than having your kids hear comments that are brutal to their sense of self-esteem.

There are several people in my family and circle of friends that know about my A. I wish they didn't know, but I tell you, it has taught me about the consequences of my actions. One of the contributing lessons to me as to why I will NEVER have an A again. This has been the most painful experience of my life. Without the pain, I'm not sure I would be able to learn so much.



It very much IS a possibility. I didn't want anything to do with my H during and immediately after the end of my A. He did a stellar Plan A and was the lighthouse for me. I love him with all my heart now, and it's only been four months after NC with OM. I now realize what a bonehead I was in not seeing what a ethical and honest man he is compared to OM. So I wish for you. Hang in there, you're doing the right things.


I can imagine this is a trigger for you, and I can't hardly pick up a magazine or TV show that doesn't have Ashton or Demi on it. So, time for you to think about them differently or it's going to drive you crazy.

Try this on for size: They were single when they met and it's totally ok they are together. They didn't fool around on a spouse and humiliate their children. Maybe you can tell yourself it's just a sweet relationship that isn't bound by people's ideals that we should date only those in our same age group (I know I'm stretching here, but go with me on this). Your issues are not about the age of the OM so much, as the fact your W is having an A with another man, right? It's the fact she's having an A at all. Let go of the age thing, and you might find some peace there and not cringe every time you see Demi (emphasis on "me") and Ashton.



Send whatever picture you like to remind her of what she left behind. Yes, include you. You're her H. Keep reminding her. IMO it will sink in eventually, even through the fog. Based on my own experiences, I hated to be reminded of the reality of what I was doing. It registered and it made me feel guilty. I didn't admit it, and so if I were you I wouldn't expect her to admit it either. She'll rationalize in her mind and give excuses like the fact she doesn't consider herself married anymore to you, she's moved on and she wishes you would too, blah blah blah. Fogtalk. Expect it. Keep sending the pictures though SIS. Keep reminding her of her betrayal.

Hope these comments are helpful. Reforming FWW signing out!
GS

PS - You are the lighthouse. Keep shining bright. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

That's sweet Cat... and encouraging <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I don't always feel like that when all she can do is talk about the other three men in her life that gave her "that feeling", and I never did. I just spent an hour and a half on the phone with her. She cried the whole time. A whole lot better than her yelling at me like she usually does.

She said this through sobs, "On paper you're the PERFECT husband! I wish I could love you then my life would be perfect!"

I asked why we shouldn't try to figure out if you can be in love with me, but she replied through the same tears, "Because I KNOW IT WON'T WORK. I KNOW IT."

How can you know something you've never tried before. Then she became kind of quiet. She said she's arranged to see a therapist, but she'll never talk to SH again. I don't understand the fear.

I'll post more later. It was encouraging and discouraging at the same time, but I kept my distance and remained calm, patient and Cary Grantish <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, did you tell her that you know about other boy being there?

Gimble

Awesome. Great information!! I'm all over it. Lighthouse! Happy boys having fun, wish you were here and not over there with your new boyfriend. Please check later for another post I'll be putting on tonight. She talked with me for almost two hours at work crying saying all sorts of unusual things that didn't sound like fog talk, because they were about her, and not us or OM.

Nope. Been in a meeting all afternoon. She's sleeping now... with HIM! I'm on my way to have dinner with DS and have travel arrangement for the morning to see big son.

I'll send her an E-Mail tonight and follow up with call tomorrow.

I've got a job you know!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
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She's sleeping now... with HIM!
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Okay. Why did you talk to her for an hour and leave out knowing about the other man? Please be honest. From my perspective, there is something missing in this equation.

Don't you think that if she had known that you and your sons knew, that it would have made it much less 'pure and wonderful' for her?

What am I missing here, Sleepless.

Gimble

Awww Gimble. She was on a roll. She was purging her soul. It was all about how remorseful she was and revealing her feelings about us. I could hardly get a word in edgewise. It was like a dam opened up and she was releasing. Could I have revealed it at that time, yes. Did I? No, I was late and trying to get off the phone without causing an international incident. I was also writing as furiously as I could. I was unsure at the time if it was the right thing to do, but now I do. I'm working on different time zones here. It's not like she's in the house! And yes, I'm a procrastinator. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It's not like I'm trying to get out of it! Sometimes I'm easily distracted. I have to read the webposts over multiple times. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OK. This is the unusual language I documented today. I get some of it, but other stuff I don't, and I'm not sure it's fog.


I told her that SH has a way to get that feeling.



WW things marriage is a piece of paper that provides possession to the other spouse. BS (me) thinks marriage is a promise/committment to love another person exclusively.

(I get this one.!)


I told her that if DS18 got involved with a married woman, I would chew him out so bad, he would wish the husband had gotten him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

She cried during most of the conversation. I told her it's easier to you when you're crying than when you're yelling at me. When she yells, I get defensive and angry. When she cries, I feel bad because of the emotional hurt she has.

She sees marriage as contract that constricts and binds holding one person slave to another. Once the ties are relseased, she will be free to love that person even more. (That's a rough interpretation)

I believe marriage is a promise between to people before God and family to love and cherish the other person before all others.

Some good news about the OM ticket. CO airlines called this morning to change flight information. It turns out the flight was for OM flight that departed today to arrive 7:30 a.m. on Saturday. Cost her $1400. How did you guess Gimble!? By the way, we'll probably just do the small rockets so they don't carry out into the ocean! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

She'll get the E-Mail now revealing that I know

She also claimed today that she was going to see a therapist, but would never talk to SH again. I guess she thinks, I'm trying control the situation.

SIS

Quote:
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... I'm working on different time zones here. It's not like she's in the house! And yes, I'm a procrastinator.
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Procrastination, in this case, is coming from fear. You can't hide being afraid of being in conflict with your wife.

What is the worst that can happen? She is already trying to divorce you, she already has, or plans to sleep with the other boy.

Why do you fear this woman?

Sleepless, you are making it difficult for me to help you (and possibly others). The path you need to walk is relatively clear, yet the very things that you most need to do, are the things you are most afraid to do. That is true of many of us in a difficult situation, but you simply must push past it.

Your wife intends to dump you and do other things. If you want to win her and your marriage back, you are going to have to face your fears.

Quote:
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She sees marriage as contract that constricts and binds holding one person slave to another. Once the ties are relseased, she will be free to love that person even more. (That's a rough interpretation)
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She sees marriage in whatever light is convenient for her to do what she wants to. That is because she has also conveniently shifted her moral base to accommodate her actions.

Quote:
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Some good news about the OM ticket. CO airlines called this morning to change flight information. It turns out the flight was for OM flight that departed today to arrive 7:30 a.m. on Saturday. Cost her $1400. How did you guess Gimble!? By the way, we'll probably just do the small rockets so they don't carry out into the ocean!
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Did you cancel that ticket again?

Somebody high up must like you, giving you multiple chances to expose and interfere with the affair.

Does the boy's father know yet?

All the best,
Gimble

Sorry. My attempt at mild sarcasm. I sent the message about not approving of OM being there before I went to bed. I just talked to oldest son 15 minutes ago. He didnt' say much. I told him that I told her that her behavior is unacceptable. By the time I found out about the second ticket, he was on the plane.

Don't fear her at all actually. On the flight down, I was reading Dr. Dobson again, and trying to justify how much hurt I should apply with the lawyer financially on Monday.



Maybe my sarcasm is relaying a message of more reluctance than I really have. I sometimes use levity and sarcasm to relieve tension.

My path.

Appear distant but strong and confident. Did that yesterday pretty well for almost 2 hours.

Set boundaries. No more OM. That relationship in whatever form is unacceptable.

I understand her desire for freedom from me stems from a trapped feeling she has for being tied to someone she disrespects.... me. If she wants to be alone, she can be alone in Europe without our sons and me. If she can't get back often enough to see them, that's not my problem.
She needs to reap the fruits she's sewn.

The boys father is apparently out of the country on business, so I'll send him an E-Mail message for now and then follow up with a phone call.

The other issue is that I don't think I really want her talking to our DS8 while the OM is there with her. I don't want her to believe it's OK to have both.

I'm on track Gimble. Have a little faith. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

While reading through Love Must Be Tough this morning I recognized I was in the separation part where I had gained my self respect and confidence. People around me are amazed I'm handling it so well. Maybe I'm not afraid enough of losing my marriage because I feel like she's already gone and I'm just taking care of myself. It takes energy to want to care what happens to her, which I fear is a little too far to my selfish self.

Dr. Dobson explained that I need to lift the door on the cage. I'm afraid she sees the marriage certificate as the cage and that I have some control over her. The decisions she's making are her own. I feel it would be beneficial to a logical person to explain my view of marriage is not the paper, but the committment I made not the paper I signed.

IMO the betrayal showed the disrespect for the commitment and she's off doing what she wants now. I can only attribute the cage to her self imposed and deserved guilt.

My divorce lawyer approach will be to have as much of the custody and property awarded to me, but not have any of it sold initially. I realize I'm doing something else that is going to tick of Gimble, but it didn't occur to me until now.

I'm helping her out with paperwork. What the heck am I thinking. She's off with her boyfriend and I'm filling out paperwork?? It was just a habit I guess. I'll mail it to her on Monday. She can do it herself. I also need tires for son's Jeep. I'll get those and charge them to her. That goes on top of the $3500 loan she's giving him!

I think I need to revise the financial and parenting plans and have that ready for the lawyer on Monday. When she starts throwing money around, that REALLY scares me. She's one of the cheapest women on the planet, yet she bought a $1400 ticket!

I'm not going to tell her what the marriage meant to me. It would be wasted. She's becoming more of an alien every day. That's too bad for the boys. I think I need to chip through my son's shield and see what he's really thinking.

SNS

As soon as myPlan A startedin earnest I told Squid that " I will not shackle you to our marriage. I want you back, but I will not force, nor coerce you. Nor will I allow you treat me with disrespect nor behave in any way that hurts our children. I do not know even if we have a future together, but I am willing to try, but only if this is your genuine desire. ".

This and other phrases like it totally disarmed much of her justification rants against and about me.

Gimble had be buy LMBT and I smiled to read that I'd had this approach almost from day one. Not often that instinct is right for a BS !

And Gimble ? He's a wise counsel, but is not your Jiminy Cricket, and if I know him would not want to be.

Just know that advice offered from personal experience AND which is supported by research like MB is usually pretty good.

Deviate from such for ACTIVE reasons, OK ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All blessings

The reason I like MB is because it is supported by such good research. Typical engineering geek.

I just got a reply from WW



I replied



In review, I wasted words trying to counter her points. Sorry, just a habit of correcting factual inaccuracies in my profession. I'll try to fix that. I thought the rest of the response was good enough. I cancelled the ticket and know she bought a new one. And we're dissappointed.

Should I take her calls if she tries to call. Do I have to let her talk to DS8? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'll keep conversations with Gimble a little more serious! We just changed DS18's Master Clutch cylinder, so we may not have time for Rockets. Maybe we'll just buy a few to build at home tonight and launch later.

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
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Should I take her calls if she tries to call. Do I have to let her talk to DS8?
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Sleepless, you don't have to cooperate with her. You can be loving and honest and not engage in 'love buster' type of behaviors, but you don't have to be on call.

If might be a good time to find somewhere else to be for a while.

I am glad that you are sending her the paper work to do for herself.

I think that you did well on the response. I agree that taking her on point by point is mostly a waste of time. It is a lot better to just say that you disagree and be done.

She is not of a mind to learn from you right now. The only thing that she wants to hear from you is your agreement that her course of action is warranted and right. Anything else is just you resisting her. Her moral base is different from yours.

Quote:
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'll keep conversations with Gimble a little more serious!
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I don't want to seem like an ogre, Sleepless, I like to help people, I just have a very limited amount of time.

I am really hoping that you can recover your marriage. Your sons deserve two parents, and a mother that they can respect.

All the best,
Gimble

Hi, Sleepless.

I was thinking more about your situation.

Since your wife is likely accustomed to your support while she is away, I think that you should consider removing most of it. Let her stand or fall, on her own.

I am not talking about committing love busters, I am talking about further removal of ANY supportive behavior that could be used by her as a facilitation of the affair. Take her away from her base of support, and let her dangle on her own limb. This could be especially effective with her out of the country.

If she is used to certain interactions at certain times during the day, scheduled calls, emails, whatever. Change it up. Let her lose her grip of control normally facilitated by you.

All the best,
Gimble

I was thinking the same thing actually. She was always giving me lists and she had sort of stopped, but she's asked for a couple of favors that I initially accomodated as Plan A, but have reconsidered driving around tonight. I saw rejecting support as a plan B approach at first, but now I realize it really isn't. My tone will be, if you want that done, you'll need to take care of it. I would like to say, if you've got time for tennis and drinking with the OM, then you have time to take care of your own errands.

She called me at dinner tonight with my sons and awesome friends. She said hi to DS8 and then talked to me for 5 minutes. She tried to excuse the OM flying out. I blocked her every defense. Such as there are easier ways to get closure than to fly OM out for an extended weekend using a last minute ticket. I told her point blank verbally I cancelled the first ticket and why. She didn't think that was very mature I think. I just ignored the comment. I told her the boys and I were let down. She kept trying to isolate to her and me. When I repeated that I was surprised she would pick a relationship with OM over her sons and me, she said this is just between you and me. I didn't let her off that hook. After finally admitting that he was there, but it wasn't what I thought it was. I told her that her lies and deceptions made it hard for me to believe that they weren't sleeping together, and that she obviously lied about not being in contact. This development really put a damper on the nice conversation we had yesterday. I tried to feign dissapointment with her in my tone rather than hurt or anger. She ended by saying are you going to let me have the divorce? I want to say no, but realize that goes against letting the cage door open per Dr. Dobson. I should probably say, you may get the divorce if you want it, but not on your terms? Telling her I'm fighting for the marriage seems to be counter to the Tough Love I don't need you scenario, but is exactly what you told me to say, and it appears to have been what bob pure said to WW. I just let it hang and said I had to get back to dinner. Straighten me out on the divorce answer if you could Gimble.

She sent me an E-Mail I haven't read yet, but it will be more alien speak.

DS18 asked if we could fund a small loan for a motorcycle. I told him I would normally say yes, but mom already gave someone else a pretty healthy loan for his car. Yep, the OM. $3500 loan to make up the difference from the accident. He didn't say much, but appeared dissappointed.

I would appreciate the comment on the D response.

PS

I appreciate every word you type. I am sometimes tongue in cheek and that doesn't always come across in the typed word. By the way, I know I have the tendency to procrastinate, so I actively overcome it. Had to do that to get through college! You don't come off like an ogre really, just that you had your sense of humor surgically removed at an early age.... See, that was a joke! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hang in there Gimble. My boys need you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Sns,

Well, I'm not Gimble but here's my 2 cents (for free - LOL!!). ... ok, as for the D stuff say something like:

WS: I need to fly OM out here for some closure.

BS: U think anyone is dumb enough to believe that line?

WS: This isn't about us and the kids, it's about you and me.

BS: Well that's how the kids came about so it is really about all of us, but think what you can.

WS: R U going to give me the D?

BS: No, you, your lawyer a few thousand dollars and a judge can do that.

WS: Why are you so hard to deal with?

BS: Hard to deal with? Nope you are much better at this than I am....buy hey, I can learn to be.

Ok Sns, you can see the sarcasm right? LB? You bet....all over the place but right now LBs will happen anyway. So don't fret, just don't take in her mumbo jumbo WS babble. Learn to give it back to her and you will survive.

She still has a long ways to go. Giving any $$ to the OM and depriving your family is horrible. Your children are now victims beyond a shadow of a doubt. Let them give her their anger. Don't be her cushion. Tell her to go get the $$ back from her great OM since your son needs it to get a vehicle.

BTW, cancel all known tickets. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Boy, I feel mean tonight. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

L.

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
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She ended by saying are you going to let me have the divorce? I want to say no, but realize that goes against letting the cage door open per Dr. Dobson. I should probably say, you may get the divorce if you want it, but not on your terms? Telling her I'm fighting for the marriage seems to be counter to the Tough Love I don't need you scenario, but is exactly what you told me to say. I just let it hang and said I had to get back to dinner. Straighten me out on the divorce answer if you could Gimble.
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Okay, here is my opinion.

I really don't see that the two methods are mutually exclusive.

I think that you can tell your wife the truth. "I don't want a divorce." That is not keeping the door closed.

The fact is simple. If she wants a divorce, then she can get one, even without your consent.

What your wife wants is for you to agree that she is right. She wants that verbally, and in action form. She wants what she wants and she wants you to help her get it. She wants you to like it.

You can leave the cage door open, but you don't have to chase the bird out.

Chasing her out of the cage is Plan B, and I think you are still a good ways away from that potentiality.

Fighting for your marriage is showing your wife that as a future mate, you are most desirable, and that she will be losing not only that, but her family as well. She is not thinking clearly, and she needs to know that there is a path back.

What do you think about that?

I think that you handled the conversation well. I especially like you telling her that what she is doing affects you and the boys, not just you and her. I like truth. It is sticky.

I see nothing wrong with you telling her that you don't trust her when she is demanding trust from you. The simple fact is, she has proven herself untrustworthy.

Do be careful not to 'tell her off', or give her 'what for'. That is a a waste of time for both of you, and counter Plan A.

Quote:
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She ended by saying are you going to let me have the divorce?
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You say: "I can't stop you, but I am certain that we can have a great marriage if we make just a few changes. Wouldn't it be great to be in love again?"

What would you say if she wanted to know more?

God bless,
Gimble

Orchid, you are always welcome as always! The conversation you outlined is about what I did. I try to temper my saracasm because of the LBs. Thanks for the "permission" to sprinkle it back in.

I told DS18 about what mom is doing in general. He needs to know so he doesn't get there one day.

I cancel tickets whenever I see them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It is fun. Wish I could have gotten to the second one. She bought it too last minute.

I know I'm getting to her when she gets really defensive and starts asking me questions. I find tha silence can sometimes be more agonizing and probably induces more thought.

Gimble, I like the distinction between not wanting the divorce and not being able to stop it. That cleared the road block very well for me. I've been telling her I can't stop her from getting a divorce and that usually gets a silent pause and a what are you going to try and do to me. I tell her it depends on he behavior.

'I like truth it's sticky'

You're right. It's like a spider web. It gets all over them and they squirm and fight to get it off. Quite satisfying to listen to actually. It lets you know you hit the target! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Orchid, you are always welcome as always! The conversation you outlined is about what I did. I try to temper my saracasm because of the LBs. Thanks for the "permission" to sprinkle it back in.

I told DS18 about what mom is doing in general. He needs to know so he doesn't get there one day.

I cancel tickets whenever I see them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It is fun. Wish I could have gotten to the second one. She bought it too last minute.

I know I'm getting to her when she gets really defensive and starts asking me questions. I find tha silence can sometimes be more agonizing and probably induces more thought.

Gimble, I like the distinction between not wanting the divorce and not being able to stop it. That cleared the road block very well for me.



It's like a spider web. When you hit the target it gets all over them, and you can watch as they try to wriggle out of the web. Very satisfying.



I've used pieces of that before. I like the way you joined the two together. SH told me a similar response if she gives me how depressed she's been, and essentially repeat the second part of your quote.

That spools her up too. She thinks the working to find love is too contrived. It goes to the fact she had it spontaneously with OM. She's got to come out of the fog further, but I can keep repeating it as a path home.

This was a very good session Gimble and Orchid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm cooking my college son and roommate an egg scramble breakfas with sausage and onions. Spoil them a little before heading home.

I wanted to list my latest E-Mail exchange as an example of what I've learned. Kind of a practical exam



[color:"blue"] Here's my response with a little sarcasm, and truth. That should prove sticky! Some of my references wer to our phonecall last night.[/color]



Probably too many words again. But if she saves it and rereads it later it could be effective. Besides, it made me feel good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />