Ah HAH! guess that makes sense.

BTW When do you SLEEP?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Sleepless.

"BTW When do you SLEEP??

I am a 5 or 6 hour a night guy. Any more than that is a waste :-)

Gimble

Sounds like me! 12:30 to 6:30.

Faxed paperwork to lawyer today.

WW just called at work to check if I got her monetary message. You know how you have better responses scheduled after you hang up. I could have done better, but otherwise non-commital. I also don't want to push her buttons until after she realizes DS8 isn't going back to Paris. I've got to get through her visit this Sunday. She's only here for 24 hours. Then I need to cancel the nanny flying over. Poor girl had planned her whole summer around this gig. I think I'll give her some money so she can go over for a week and spend some vacation time for her trouble, then charge WW for it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

She said she was draining her savings to buy some stuff for DS18. Said that it was none of my business what she and DS18 were doing. Did I tell you WW told DS18 not to talk to me anymore. He is HER son. I told DS18 not to worry. He would always be my son no matter what mom says. She's not acting very rationally right now, and don't let the things she says get to you.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Sleepless.

You had mentioned that she is telling your legally adopted son not to talk to you :-)

Which part of 'Legal Guardian' does she not understand?

I am surprised that the retch factor hasn't caused a rift between them - ah, but that would be why she doesn't want you to talk to him - the truth and all that bothersome stuff.

I hope that young son's passport is in a safe place.

Oh, and don't forget to do some googling on PEA (phenyl ethylamine) and dopamine. The PEA is thought to be the primary 'brain love chemical' that causes (or is a pre-cursor to) increased dopamine production (and a host of other chemicals. Do a nice concise write-up about the process and send it to your wife, complete with web links. maybe it will demystify those intense euphoric love and wonderment feelings, at least a bit. There's nothing like a blown fantasy to get your attention.

Don't get me wrong, Sleepless, 'feeling' in love with your spouse is a good thing, but I choose to love my wife everyday, as does she, me. It is a good thing too. Some days, one or both of us are not so lovable :-)

God bless,
Gimble

That is great info Gimble. I told my son when we got married (he was 8) that I would technically be his step dad, but I would only call him son, and I would be his dad. We've had 10 years to build a bond, good and bad. This has only brought us closer together.

He was disgusted as soon as it happened. I told him to try and not think about it, and I have not shared details. He's grossed out enough.

Thanks for the chemical link. We're both engineers, so it might sink through eventually. Maybe I can send it to her in the sense that it's a chemical rush that will eventually go away, so hang in there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I'm making the decision to love her now. Now she's got to figure that out.

Passport is hidden away. DS8 will not be out of my site. Besides she doesn't want to get arrested again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Glad to hear your wife can put up someone like you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
(That's a joke!) You're obviously a strong man with a good head on his shoulders.

My BIL and SIL called me tonight to see how I'm doing. They're the sane ones in the family that are on my side.
They're both strong Christians who are not on my wife's side regarding the A. SIL said she would not talk to them by phone, only on IM. I told them about OM flying over this last weekend and she was dissappointed, but not surprised. BIL is great. He's a recovered alcoholic that knows all about addictions. WW IM'd him to say she thought she had never loved me, and that's why she was divorcing me. He told her that was bogus. "I saw the twinkle in your eye when you were around BS. Don't lie to yourself like that."

At least I'm not a validated idiot who was lying to myself. That doesn't mean this will all work out, but I can be a little reassured.

I know that love is a choice, but if we do it right, we can feel in love too. I look forward to that. I need to keep that glimmer of hope.

Time for a Google search before Dr. Phil (Can't believe I said that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />)

Hi SIS,

The wedding is coming quick, and everything is wonderful (I'm so in love <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). This website has helped me when I needed answers, and also helped me to see that some stuff isn't worth worrying about. I had always thought that being a BS or WS wouldn't happen to me, but MB has taught me that it happens a lot, and what I can do to prevent it. I truly believe that Dr. Harley has helped my FI and I build a stronger relationship going into marriage.

I'm also thankful for people like you who have come on to share their stories. If ever I do become a BS, I know that I will have a place to turn. Seeing Gimble help you through this has given me faith that there is always help out there no matter the situation.

Thank you! (Oh, and sorry to threadjack <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />)

Cat

It's a pleasure to hear how two young people can be so much in love. I remember too. I posted the conversation I had with my BIL yesterday. He confirmed to my wife that she had the twinkle in her eye. She was in love too, but obviously has some baggage that she never got rid of, and finally killed that feeling. Get rid of as much as you can now. Be honest and intimate with your husband. Work on the mystery and adventure. Have fun! You're best friends. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Damnit, Damnit, Damnit. I just spent almost two hours discussing our relationship with WW. She sounded a lot more cogent today, but adamant about divorcing. Get ready with the 2x4 Gimble, I was debating! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> But then maybe I was just defending my point of view. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

WW: I want us to have a relationship, and maybe we can be in love, but no matter what I can't ever be married again. Do you understand?

Me: No. I can see not being married if we are not in love, but I don't know why we wouldn't be married if we were.

WW: Don't you understand that I don't want to be married because I can't be controlled by anyone.

Me: No

WW: Why can't we just be in love. Why does there have to be a piece of paper?

Me: It's not the piece of paper. It's the committment the piece of paper represents. No matter how bad it gets, the other person promises to be there. It's not just the paper, it's the committment before God and family to each other.

WW: Do you understand my perspective? (Trying to get me to validate her actions).

Me: Yes, But I don't agree with it. You keep saying it's between you and me, yet you fail to see how it will affect the kids.

WW: I don't want to hurt you again.

Me: If we're in love and committed through marriage why would you hurt me? (I'm getting ready to close up about now)

I added a few OK's and Uh Huhs.

So, she doesn't want to be controlled. She wants to make her own mistakes and not have anyone make her feel bad about them. She doesn't want to take any control for herself it sounds like! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You'll like this.
WW: You and your parents always made me feel bad, unclean, dirty. Like someone who wasn't worthy to be around your family. I was some woman who had a child without a husband.

Me: What did I say or do that made you feel that way?

WW: Just being you, you're so pure and from a perfect family.

Me: So telling everyone how talented and wonderful you are, what a great mother you are.... that didn't make you feel valued? The things I did to cherish you and take care of you, weren't enough?

WW: It's just how I feel. I have the names of some therapists here, but I'm travelling for the next 3 weeks and don't have time.

The discussion wasn't too circular this time. I did get frustrated a few times, but never lost it. She agreed to counseling together again, but not with SH. I said we could try someone else as long as they had some of the same values about marriage, and helped us actually correct our bad habits and thoughts.

I ended the call with, "I love you and care about you." She answered, "But do you understand me?"

Ended with an LB. "So it's still all about you?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I said I was tired and going to bed.

So, goodnight!

This morning, I don't think she has any intention of thinking about anyone but herself. She doesn't sound like she's in fog, but probably is. She says she doesn't want to hurt me, but probably doesn't care. When I bring up how this is affecting the kids, she just asks why we can't focus on us.

Sorry Orchid, I got in a debate. Reverse Babble should also apply to selfish spouses. I'll try to be 'on' tomorrow . Now she claims she wants counseling but not with SH. I told her to start on her own and see how it goes, but that it can't be until the end of May because of travel.

No confidence today in her plan to think about anyone else but herself and her three other men. She didn't talk about the kids at all, just what I'm going to do to her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

WW seems to feel like she's trying to improve the relationship because she's only calling me, and she doesn't feel that I want to talk. She wants to know my feelings, and I tell her. I wish we could find a way to work out any of our problems and remain married. She said we can have a better relationship, but not ever be married again. She just wants to be alone.

She keeps bringing up a NYTimes article that says marriage counseling doesn't work. Another excuse not to try.

I don't want to invest too much here until she really talks to a counselor she claims she'll get when she's back in Paris.

Back to Orchid's Reverse Babble.

Lol that NYtimes article said that 25% of people that went to marriage counseling said that there marriage was worse off not better.

You should ask her to see a copy of that newyork times article.

Actually I'm getting ready to send her a writeup on the drugs causing her "feeling". It's going to be pitched very innocently for her to "discover"

I don't know if she's salvageable. Kind of beyond my reach.

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
======================================
I just spent almost two hours discussing our relationship with WW.
======================================

Great! So what did the two of you work out? Two hours of planning, apologizing, remorse and decisions to repair damage. Relationship discussions with wayward spouses are all so productive.......

Quote:
======================================
WW: Why can't we just be in love. Why does there have to be a piece of paper?
======================================

WW really says: "Why won't you divorce me so it can be your fault, and if you will just believe this extremely bad, non-logical lie, couched as a plea to let me just love you, which, by the way, I have no intentions of doing, we can dump the marriage and the paper the covenant was written on. Just divorce me so that I can love you, rhetorically, kinda, well maybe, well, only if I can go and play around some first, but without feeling guilty. If you do that, i might even come back one day. Hey, I might even do it to you again if you let me do it this one time. Please, please. please, just this once? Divorce me so I can play and it will be your fault? Okay?

Oh, and let's have another relationship talk next week, I really, really enjoyed this one. Okay?"

Quote:
============================================
I ended the call with, "I love you and care about you." She answered, "But do you understand me?"
============================================

You respond with the truth.

"Absolutely".

All the best,
Gimble

Ahh. I see our sarcasm gene is kicking in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Yes, I know.... after I was done talking. But I didn't fall into her arguments and get frustrated with the inanity this time. I feel like I'm growing.


Oh, this one I got. Which is why I'm not that worried about making her angry anymore. I have the problem now that I think she's talking to the kids and finding validation from them. I've coached the 18 year old not to agree with things he doesn't like, or think is right.

I understand her. I slipped a bit yesterday and made a phone call for her. I was thinking of our friends that would be left high and dry if she didn't show up, not her.

We'll get her a Mother's day gift to leave at the house next week when DS8 and I are gone. She really won't love me then.

Back to Orchid's Reverse Babble.

Gimble. I found a description of how love affects brain chemistry and depression via PEA

I copied the text from the site and deleted the closing paragraph. a WS could ignore the whole thing and twist that sucker right around. She'll twist the rest around too, but I hate to make it easy for her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
There's a second article about how some people become addicted to that feeling and how it can lead to dissolving great relationships when the addiction goes away.



It's sunny and clear. The boys and I are going to launch rockets today! One of my 18 year old's friends has a launcher he doesn't want anymore.

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
==================================
When I bring up how this is affecting the kids, she just asks why we can't focus on us.
==================================

You say: "Hi, Hon. Yea, I just got through pummeling oldest son's face in."

Wife: "You WHAT!! Why are you abusing him like that???"

You say: "Well, he is missing all of his front teeth too, but I would rather just focus on us. Okay?"

:-)

You are doing well, Sleepless. Hang in there.

God bless,
Gimble

Oooh. That's good. I had a one hour call with WW tonight. I told her what I thought about our relationship. She thought I was bitter and trying to keep us married. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I told her she misunderstands. I only want that if she can treat me better, I don't want it the way it was. Right now, I don't see that happening from her side. Do paranoid people keep repeating themselves? She kept asking what I wanted. I would tell her, and she asked the question again.

She said I would get married before her because I need it. I told her I think she misunderstands the differenc between need and want. I didn't try to educate too much because of her apparent delirium. I followed up with a few OKs. No more arguing with crazy people. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Somehow she thinks that my wanting to wait for 6 months is trying to hold onto her. I said the six months is for me. She still doesn't get it.

I liked this.

WW: I thought I had been honest with you and you would understand my relationship with OM.

Me: What made you think an affair with a 19 year old wouldn't bother me?

It just blows ones mind how far off the deepend someone can go.

She asked why I wasn't trying to fill her Love Bank. I told her based on her current level of hostility and bitterness, I didn't think it was possible to fill her Love Bank. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

No rockets launched today. Couldn't find a launcher. We'll get one tomorrow. We do have a shiny black MGB now though. We'll shine up mom's car for mother's day.

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
================================
Do paranoid people keep repeating themselves? She kept asking what I wanted. I would tell her, and she asked the question again.
================================

You didn't tell her what she wanted to hear.

Quote:
================================
I liked this.

WW: I thought I had been honest with you and you would understand my relationship with OM.

Me: What made you think an affair with a 19 year old wouldn't bother me?
================================

Another nominee for the wayward hall of fame.

Quote:
================================
No rockets launched today. Couldn't find a launcher. We'll get one tomorrow.
================================

I think KayBee toys (?) or ToysRUs has the launchers and engines, igniters, wadding, etc... We put together a kit of parts and bought a tackle box big enough to hold the disassembled launcher, battery, engines, some glue and other little parts so that field day would be uninterrupted when disaster struck :-) Half the fun was building the rockets and stocking the kit :-)

Have fun!

Gimble

WW: Don't you understand that I don't want to be married because I can't be controlled by anyone.


Translation : I want what I wnat, when I want it. I want my kids, when I want them, I want to be able to talk with you, you do fulfill mey EN's, and I want to be able to chase after any young thing. Being M does not allow me to do that. I guess i COULD stay M if you promised you wouldn't get into my way...how 'bout it hon?


WW: You and your parents always made me feel bad, unclean, dirty. Like someone who wasn't worthy to be around your family. I was some woman who had a child without a husband.

Translation: I am feeling rotten about myself, I live with a great deal of shame, and I am looking for someone to blame...that way I don't have to work on it myself. And it also gives me a convenient excuse to say goodbye for now...but don't leave all the way...I want to hang onto you so you can keep on fulfilling my EN's...just let me do what I want...how 'bout it hon?


She is trying to negotiate a cake-eating scenario.

It is time to be VERY clear with her that after the D there will be no R between you, other than coparenting...you will see each other at the kid's weddings and you will go to her funeral...talk to each other very occasionally about kid switching and grades and that is IT...no more "How are you doing? Want to get together..."

The WS have this fantasy that the BS will always be waiting for them...not true, and they need to feel the consequences of their actions, that they are destroying the love you have for them.

Be very clear about how hard it is to maintain the love you have for her, and it is leaving, won't be there much longer...

Also be clear that YOU are not the reason she is unhappy...she carries that burden ALL upon herself.

My FWH tried to blame his unhappiness on me and the kids...he was looking for ANY excuse (the house is a mess, the kids don't listen to me, etc.) but when he left, he carried that unhappiness with him and realized that unhappiness (and therefore happiness) was internal.

How do you get that across to her? Next time she spouts off about how you and your family MADE her feel...tell her no one put you in charge of HER feelings. She doesn't want to feel controlled, however allowed herself to be TOLD how to feel? Feeling controlled doesn't come from other people, it comes from a person who feels so bad about themself that they have to blame other people, because it hurts too much to think THEY are responsible for all this pain.

You can try saying to her...

"I am sorry you are feeling so much pain, but I can't MAKE you feel any particular way...you are in charge of that. Just like any person can't MAKE you feel happy, only you can decide to be happy."

This is a tough one for a person to swallow, I'll bet she'll have an answer for this...

It IS very circular...she doesn't want to be controlled, yet she gives up all power and control in her life to other people...by blaming them for the bad feelings she has.

If they could only INVENT a gizmo that could make a person FEEL a particular way...oh wait, they have...drugs...


WW: I thought I had been honest with you and you would understand my relationship with OM.

Translation: I was HOPING that once you saw how happy I was with OM you would let me have this fling, because what makes ME happiest is to have BOTH of you....how 'bout it hon?

SIS, I know how draining it all must be. I agree... your WW needs to understand, and soon, that after the D, there will be only a minimal relationship between you.

It sure is interesting to watch the WS project her own judgements of herself onto others:


This is GOLD. They made her feel dirty. It's your fault, and your family's fault, that she has doubts about herself. Of course, she'll find one day that the doubts are still there, even if you aren't.

SiS, I hate to say this, but if she felt this way before, just think of how she'll feel now if she comes back to your marriage.

Culprits abound, except in the mirror.

Do you see how you need to be a refuge for her? It sucks, man. No matter how hard you try, it will take an epiphany for her to seek that sanctuary.

GC