I've tried that scenario. I've told her only she can make herself feel bad or that other people make her feel bad only if she LET'S THEM.

Her response is, "so it's my fault again. I'm the screwed up one!" How do I say yes without it being a Love Buster? I've been trying to tell her that in a nice way for 8 years, and she flips it around on me." I would like her to realize it is her. At this point I don't care if it's harsh to hear, I just want her to find a way to be healthy with herself.

Last night she said our marriage was comfortable and safe, but it was a hollow shell. There was no passion in side, no feeling of love like she felt with OM. Hmm. Sounds like she's empty inside trying to find happiness.

Gimble. She didn't like the brain chemical article very much. She said she was suicidal because of the two days in jail. "Wouldn't you be?" she asked. "No, I replied. It's an unfortunate event to overcome, not to kill myself over."



I tried to explain last night that fact. She says I'm different than the man she knew. I told her I was protecting myself by separating my emotions from her. I treated her special because she was my wife. She keeps going back to the police incident. I asked her point blank if she thought any of her behavior led to the incident? She still wanted to be all my fault. OK I replied.

She accused me of being bitter and angry. I did not raise my voice at all, and told her I was not bitter, but didn't rely on her being my best friend anymore. So that was kind of sad. This was great.

Me: I used to believe I was your best friend, but now I know that' not the case when I saw you with OM.

WW: Why does that mean you're not still my best friend?

Me: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> (I don't know how psychologists do it)

I thought I had seen it all, but maybe not.

I hadn't considered, what it will look like if we actually come back together. What will her demeanor and speach be? I can't even imagine it at this point, so I want to know what I'm looking for. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Gimble: I'm going for the rocket launching kit today. I'll pick up a tool box for the stuff too. At the hobby shop I noticed you could by two channel radio controlled electric airplanes for under $100 with the radio! That could be fun too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Man, I know this feeling so well. In my case, I've had to give up on it happening.

SiS, how long will you maintain this level of contact? I know how draining it is.

GC

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
===============================
Her response is, "so it's my fault again. I'm the screwed up one!" How do I say yes without it being a Love Buster? I've been trying to tell her that in a nice way for 8 years, and she flips it around on me." I would like her to realize it is her. At this point I don't care if it's harsh to hear, I just want her to find a way to be healthy with herself.
===============================

"Wife, like every other couple on the planet, we both have some issues that need work. Your mistake was going outside of the marriage for a solution. I am ready for us to be in love again, and to have a marriage that anyone would be envious of. We can do this."

Have fun with the rockets and airplane!

Gimble

Gimble that sounds like a great reply. I think I'm going to write a script to all of the questions she asks so I can be consistent and a light house.

She's claiming she wants to do counseling with me, but with a therapist in Europe. She wants me to do it with a separate counselor. She was taken off guard when I told her I wasn't going to talk to SH any more. She said, "I thought we agreed to talk to different counselors and then work on our relationship" I told her I thought that was great, but is sounded like she couldn't talk to someone until the end of May. Once she begins that, I would be happy to work with her on some things. She says she's been reading the MB site, but that it's too contrived when she's already had "that feeling" with three other men without trying. I wonder if I sent her a copy of Love Busters to read if that would help, or His Needs Her Needs.

WW: "I didn't go looking for it!"
Me: "I don't believe that you did. But they gave you something you needed, and I would like to see if I can do that."

It sounds like they were just not threatening to her and never required anything of her. And that my family just made her feel insecure because of her own insecurities.

I'm afraid this weekend might be a big Love Buster.

I've been there for 10 years to prop her up. Tell her how wonderful she is. It's amazing how someone with such low self esteem can be so successful. It does suck. Like banging your head against the wall. I hope this emotional event will lead her to seek help. She's always believed that getting help is a sign of weakness.

I've been able to help our oldest son with some of those feelings. He's had some really bad feelings about himself in the past, but with some long talks, he's discovering he's a pretty worthwhile individual. WW used to project a similar feeling of worthlessnes on him, even though she loves him more than anything, she's telling him what she heard as a child. I need to make sure our 8 year old is protected from that. She defines herself as hyper critical, and she's only been like that since she's been with me. Yeah, right!

So I guess we both married really insecure women. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I wrote a message to WW yesterday when she didn't call. I wanted to reach out and demonstrate a willingness to be a lighthouse. I don't know though. I'm not sure if it's time for Plan B or not.... if it's been long enough. I just don't want to jump the gun.

[color:"blue"] I wrote [/color]

[color:"green"] WW writes: [/color]



My translation. Why aren't you catering to me by arranging for DS8 to call me in the middle of my busy schedule. Take care of me at the expense of everyone else. I don't trust that you will grovel before me anymore.

I can't think about you anymore it's too irritating to me. You don't do what I want anymore. I do care about the family when they do what I want when I want the way I want. Our sons meet my emotional needs for love. What about ME ME ME? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I didn't have time all day to Fedex you the keys you'll need to get into the apartment. You'll need to fly for 12 hours with your luggage and then go find the keys somewhere.

This would be going so much better if you had just let me fool around with OM19 and done what I asked when I asked. How selfish of you to ask me to participate in the family.
I don't believe in loving relationships that require me to be nice to people, so let's just be friends. That love stuff is chemistry, it just happens. You've obviously never been in love and wouldn't understand. Right now I just don't want you to rock the boat or my career. You've bothered me enough today. I'll talk to you and DS8 when it's convenient.

What do you think guys. Am I getting it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't know if there's any point in being a lighthouse when she'll discover next week that I've changed her conditions of the divorce.

Hi Sleepless.

Quote:
===============================
I'm afraid this weekend might be a big Love Buster.
===============================

Make it be whatever you want it to be. Plan family activities. Look good, smell good, etc.... Don't settle in for a morbid round of wayward led marital introspection. Spend time with your wife and family doing fun things. Why not tailgate at a your very own combination picnic lunch and rocket launch event. Go to the zoo. Try to explain monkey behavior to your son :-)

Let me ask you this. With your wife not ready to commit to the marriage, which accomplishes more, 1) hours spent with you battling babble, or 2) doing something that you enjoy as a family?

All the best,
Gimble

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
=============================
What do you think guys. Am I getting it?
=============================

I think you are mostly getting it.

Now you need to stop doing it.

She is trying to convince you that she is right and she never loved you and all the standard script. Stop arguing. Don't tell her that you want her to be happy. What you want is for her to stop what she is doing. It is time to reduce your responses to a minimum.

Wife: "I was never happy and there was never any passion and all of our passionate sex and happiness and involvement with raising a son, and all that was never really real. I have never been happy, and why don't you call me on my schedule? .........."

You: "Wife, I don't know about all that. I do know that we can have a great marriage if we want to. Why not give it a chance."

Lather, rinse, repeat. Keep it simple to the point that she will memorize your response.

Gimble

There's one other one...
this could have been quite easy for all of us if it was handled differently-- by you, and by me as well -

WW: It was all your fault, but I'm willing to take SOME of the blame to not make it sound like I'm blaming you for EVERYTHING...but right now all I can see is how YOU are to blame for all my bad behavior.


You: I love you, and want our M, but my desire won't last forever.

Also be clear about the "back to friends" statement...after the D, there will be no other R between the two of you other than co-parenting.

WS tend to believe the BS will always be waiting for them. And a D means that they are allowed to date/schmooze as much as they want and hte BS will be friendly, willing to talk at all hours, basically waiting like a lost dog waits for it's master. I've read it over and over again..."We'll be better friends after the D..." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Yeah, whatever, dream on...

Time for Plan B will occur...you'll know it.

Don't get sucked into her babble...keep it short and sweet about R talk...and repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat...

I agree with Gimble, life's too short to spend it caught up in A talk...enjoy yourself.

And the mean nasty side of me would postpone my trip until the keys came...forgetting to send the keys seems a bit deliberate to me...

Let me be specific. I've decided not to take my son back to Europe this weekend. WW doesn't know that unless she's reading this. The lawyer I talked to said I should keep DS8 in states as long as possible without WW knowing that I'm going to keep him because the courts tend to want to leave a child in a stable environment. As a man, I have a higher standard to meet than my wife. My wife, son and I will not be in the same city this weekend. When she gets back to Europe, she'll discover we're not there and then she'll find that I'm not sending him back. Because she's fast tracking the divorce, I'm forced to choose between spending time together as a family and taking steps to protect my son from getting hauled back to Europe.

There lies the dilemna. I'm not trying to argue with her. I'm trying to be the lighthouse that there is a path to happiness.

I'm printing out a script today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
====================================
I'm forced to choose between spending time together as a family and taking steps to protect my son from getting hauled back to Europe.
====================================

Then you protect your son. I know you already know that too :-)

Does your wife like surprises?

Gob bless,
Gimble

I knew your answer, I was just sure you I was not painting the whole picture. In this case, with the divorce filing, she's forced me to pick between her and the kids. It's an easy, but I'm dissappointed I have to make it now.

Me: Hi WW, how's your weekend?
WW: How's the weather in Europe?
Me: I don't know...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
WW: Where are you?!
Me: It's a surprise. But we'll send you a postcard<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SiS... what SHMI said. She needs to understand, and right soon, that after the D, you will NOT be friends.

Geez. I'm sorry SiS, I'm so tired of WWs right now.

That observation of yours: how can somebody with such a cruddy self-image be a success? I've had the same thought, many times.

They remind me a little of high-functioning alcoholics (the sparrow knows some of those too). As long as the everyday elements of life aren't too troublesome, they manage just fine.

GC

I was sifting through your post Gray Cloud. My you've been busy. I noticed your observation that something evil is going on about them and it creeps you out even though you're agnostic. I met a woman many years ago who had previously been involved with witchcraft, but converted to Christianity. She was deadly serious about the fact that summoning demons was possible and not very good for you. She had personal experiences that made me nervous too. She was very rational and not nutty at all. Very matter of fact. While that may not be the case here I've heard evidence that evil exists supernaturally.... as does good.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

I was firm and consistent on the phone tonight with her. I told WW in a calm even tone, I believe we can be in love regardless of our condition before. I even got her to ask me how, but I didn't fall into the teaching trap. She replied that I KNOW I can't love you. I KNOW I can't be married to you. I was consistent and simply said, I believe we can.

I got a little hung up on the fact that if she really wants to know how, what do I tell her. I hadn't been studying the next step because I didn't think it would come.

She sobbed that she was so tired and couldn't do it anymore. That I was going to keep her married to me. I told I can't make her do anything, and that she has to be willing to take steps to build love between us of her own free will. It was kind of funny because while talking softly to her to calm down and relax, she suddenly fell asleep.

I'm off to read His Needs Her Needs, not that I'll need it when she finds out DS8 isn't going to Europe.

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
==============================
I got a little hung up on the fact that if she really wants to know how, what do I tell her. I hadn't been studying the next step because I didn't think it would come.
==============================

By meeting each others needs in a very specific, purposeful way. You are going to work hard at it. You are determined to be a better man than the one she married :-)

As you begin to meet each others needs, you will both find yourselves FEELING very much in love again. Yup, big time brain chemicals come to those who wait, and to those that work at it.

Gimble

Last night was interesting. I took DS8 and my mom to dinner. When we got home, we found 3 phone messages from WW who’s in DC for the week. She and son talked for a few minutes. Talked about how they missed each other. Then she and I talked. She’s really tired, crying, sobbing for me to let her go. I responded with, “Why are you so sad? You’re divorcing me. You should be happy now.”

She asks again what I’m going to do to her? Do I want to keep DS8?

Me: I don’t know.

Me: I believe we can have a wonderful loving marriage together if we try.

WW: How? (She’s asking questions now, but at the risk of circular arguing, I gave it one response)
Me: By learning to respect, love and take care of each other so that love can grow in our hearts.

I told her to calm down and get some rest. She fell asleep on the phone.

This morning she called again early. She’s having trouble functioning at work. She can concentrate. She wants me to “let her go” (Translation: agree to everything I want to validate my destructive behavior)

I told her I wouldn’t accelerate the divorce for her. I wanted to know I gave it my best shot.

She says she’ll never trust anyone again because of what I’ve done to her.

Me: That’s too bad. You’ve done a lot for me not to trust anyone either, but I choose to trust people still. I won’t let what you did cause me not to trust. That’s a tough way to go through life not trusting anyone.

We had another discussion about how a relationship and marriage are two different things. This one made no sense. “We can have a great relationship if we aren’t married because then I choose to have it, I don’t have to have it.”

I essentially ended by suggesting she talk to her therapist in Europe as soon as she can. That won’t be until the end of May though. I asked what message we’ll send our sons? If you make a commitment, it’s OK to break it? If you get married, it’s OK to get a divorce when things are tough? “If you married the wrong person”, she replied.
“I don’t want to hurt you anymore. You have to let me go. It’s affecting my work, I can’t function. (crying/sobbing some more)”

I would like to think this is progress, but I don’t know. She thinks we’ll still have a relationship when I fly out to Europe every two weeks. She won’t know that’s not going to happen until this weekend when DS8 does not return to Europe.

That's good Gimble. Can I use that. I'd like to smack myself for not planning ahead a little. I read the first few chapters of HNHN. Most of it was review from the website. I should be able to finish this weekend.

For Mother's day do I leave a copy by her bedside? Or will she burn it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
======================================
“I don’t want to hurt you anymore. You have to let me go. It’s affecting my work, I can’t function. (crying/sobbing some more)”
======================================

"Wife, I did not choose the path you are on, you did. It is not my fault that you chose this path. Stop blaming me. I want us to have a great relationship, but it is not my fault that you have done what you have done."

Her depression is by the book, and is also a byproduct of her actions. If she stops what she is doing, then it will dissipate in a few weeks, otherwise, she can get some meds.

She sounds like she is in early withdrawal. I know other boy has supposedly bowed out, has he really dumped her?

The blaming you for her police incident needs to be addressed as well. I understand that you feel guilty because you think you over-reacted. She senses that, and is bringing it up again and again. She will continue until you bounce it back. "Wife, your actions caused you to spend time in jail. I simply protected myself from them. It is not my fault."

Now if you called the cops on her because you were mad and just wanted to hurt her or get her attention, NOT because she was out of control, then you owe her a sincere apology.

Either way, I suggest that you deal with the police issue and bury it.

Edited to add: By all means provide a copy of HNHN for her. She is unlikely to read it anytime soon, but there is a chance that she may. At least it will help her see that you are sincere in your efforts to save the marriage.

God bless,
Gimble