I'd just like to thank all of the betrayed who posted on this thread. You all have such character and regard for others' feelings. <P>Elixer, I understand your pain. I purposely read this thread knowing what it was going to be about even though I am one you would call a creep. I don't know what true remorse looks like on paper, but I've seen it in the mirror. I hope someday soon you see it at your house.

Elixir...may I invite you to our threads on forgiveness? The current one is about being judgmental and it is thought provoking. It is Forgiveness WkBk #6...started by me, Faith Hope Love.<P>I am the betrayed and could have many times said much the same thing. I could not continue to hold those thoughts and heal my marriage.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi,<P>I wanted to write the truth about betrayal, and ask one question - "HOW?" I am asking the people who have committed - and are committing - acts of betrayal a question which may seem to some brutal in its directness and honesty. <P>IMHO a big problem with people these days is a refusal to take responsibility for one's actions and choices. I've seen many of the betrayers here justify their behaviour instead of honestly admitting that they were at fault. Don't blame me for writing the truth, don't be angry at me for my honesty. Be angry with those who cannot be truthful, who cannot be honest. I truly do not understand betrayers as they still do what they do when the consequences of their actions/choices are so clear! <P>If it sounded angry, it's because it was: I think that the moment you choose to betray everything that makes us really human (love, honesty, selflessness) you willingly gave up your humanity. Betrayers walk amongst us as monsters disguised as human beings, justifying their every hurtful act as "somebody else's fault," never as the consequence of their choices, of their own willful actions. I am not apologetic about speaking the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts! <P>I see some people angry at everybody but themselves for doing what they have done, and it disgusts me. Don't feel sorry for yourself, don't blame me for how you feel - turn that withering gaze in on yourself. Then I see others and feel hope that betrayers can understand what they have done, that they can walk away from a life of deceit and betrayal and become human once more.<P>I am sorry that so many took offense to my choice of the appellation "creep." IMHO it was a perfectly fitting name. Should I have written "angel," "wonderful person," or "perfect human being" instead? I'm sorry, but if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck - the name fits...!!!<P>If a person can't speak the truth and simply ask a honest, direct question w/o being told that they are the one with the problem, or that they should 'refrain from posting,' then what is this place really for anyway???<P>Nobody given any answers. How does one betray? How can one betray? WHY?

Elixir - Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. I know the pain. I know the hurt. If you're here for help, you will find it. <P>SHA<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited September 24, 1999).]

Elixir-<P>I don't know if this will answer your question but...<P>When I was 'caught' I ended it immediately having seen what it had done to my OH. I have lived with the "atomic effect" he tried to explain this situation has created. I still live with it intensely even after about 5 months.<P>I don't expect it to go away, but I do hope it subsides.<P>Why? I can only say that the OM made me feel attractive and desirable, which I did feel I was getting at home. I found out afterward that he was just "saying' what needed to be said to get what he wanted. But at the time it sure felt good. I have since learned how to express my displeasure and what makes me happy. He too has learned to do these things.<P>I don't know if this is what you want, but I hope it helps.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>but if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck - the name fits...!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If your beef is against those who are actively betraying - then yes, they are a creep. If you are refering to those who stumbled, have soulful remorse, asked for forgiveness, then no, they are no longer a creep. Don't hardened your heart against those who have sinned because we ALL sin.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How does one betray? How can one betray? WHY? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The same way one lies, the same way someone steals, and a number of other short commings. Every story is different. Perhaps one has lost hope in the relationship. Who knows. Have you been reading the posts from the betrayers?

Almost all those on this forum who have betrayed are very sorry for what they have done and are struggling with it. A very few have expressed wonder as to what they should do.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>

!<P>[This message has been edited by Tony Corso (edited September 24, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by Tony Corso (edited September 24, 1999).]

Tony,<BR>I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't know anyone that WANTS to commit adultery. I didn't. And like you said, I thought I had it all under control. We were "just friends". It's amazing how quickly that can change.

Thanks Tony. You hit the nail on the head. I will be praying for you. I was trying to figure out a way to answer this but you did it for me. <P>I worked for a pastor for four years and I too saw the devistation and wondered how people could do that to one another. I even felt smug about it because I knew I would never do such a thing. Guess what? It happened. And it was exactly the way you described it. I was deceived. I believed the lies that Satan kept telling me, "Oh, a little flirting won't hurt. You are only friends. What could happen?" And just like a pig who has fallen into a mudpuddle, it is hard to get out. You keep slipping right back in there.<P>I can only say that I am so grateful that I have a Father in Heaven who forgives and forgets and that I have a husband who has done the same.<P>Thanks again.

K, THANK YOU! Once again you give it to us straight from the hip! Tony, you must have deleted your post before I had a chance to read it. From the response, I wish I had an opportunity to read what you wrote. (Maybe you could email it to me? )<P>Elixir, if you really want to learn and gain knowledge from someone, calling them a creep probably isn't going to get you anywhere. All those questions you've asked is what we're all discussing on this forum day after day. Stay awhile, you'll get your questions answered. And, as I said, if you change your approach, you might even gain more insight you never thought possible. But, in order to learn, you have to be open to it. In order to communicate, then you must be willing to listen without charging back with disrespectful judgements.<P>Stay awhile, give yourself and us a chance to communicate. You may be pleasantly surprised.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Elixir....I want to thank you for your post. I need to read those from time to time. I am<BR>not one of those who have not "given in" ...but I am full aware of the war that<BR>rages within the human soul. I am a pastor and school teacher...and have struggled for<BR>some time with being attracted to another teacher that I work with. I am also married (18<BR>years with 3 beautiful girls)and have never strayed from my marriage. Pastoring for the<BR>past 11 years...I have seen firsthand the devestation that Adultery does to families. I have<BR>often, and I mean often wondered: "How can a man do that to people he loves. Believe it<BR>or not...last year...after hearing of another minister who "fell"...I began to wonder...how<BR>would I do if I was severely tested in this area? Believe me...I understand now how<BR>men (as I am speaking as a man) can do the unspeakable. I am not offereing<BR>excuses...yes...I believe in being responsible for your actions... But let me tell you ...this<BR>battle is the most intense, deceiving, INTOXICATING struggle I have ever dealt with. It<BR>starts so innocently...friendly...social. Then..."something" snags you. Kind of like a drug<BR>or that first drink. You like the feeling...don't think there is any danger...you have it all in<BR>control. And you keep coming back for more. Next...you feel like you have a hook in<BR>your heart...and something is pulling you closer while your feet are on ice...you know<BR>better...logic is screaming at you... but...well... I can't explain it much more. I have never<BR>been addicted to the bottle or drugs...(but have partaken of them before my conversion)I<BR>can tell you...I know what an addict goes through. In my case...my "bottle" has been just<BR>visiting with OW whenever the opportunity arises. They are innocent...she shares with<BR>me how much she enjoys the talks(no inappropriate topics) She is very beautiful in all<BR>regards. She is married as well...with a non-communicative husband. So presto...I start<BR>meeting this need and you begin to sense the draw. I struggle trying to find the brakes...to<BR>stop this dangereous slide...but it is a war in the full sense of the word.It is post like<BR>yours...that bring me back to reality...because your pain is what is not visible when you<BR>are on "this side of the tracks" I don't want to experience that for myself. I cry out to God<BR>for strength. My thoughts for the day...thanks for listening.

Okay, y'all:<P>Did you really think your ole buddy Lone Star would pass up a chance to respond to a post like this one? <P>Elixir, I truly sympathize with your sentiments. When my wife cheated, I just wanted to go ballistic on everyone, especially other cheaters. Why the heck not? They were easy targets.<P>But . . . (and you knew there was a but coming) . . . it doesn't do us any good to go off half cocked like that. If you're gonna go off, go off FULLY cocked! <P>But seriously, what good did that venting do you? Maybe you feel better, but you ticked off all the betrayers here who are HONESTLY and SOULFULLY trying to repair their marriages.<P>Your points are, for the most part, true. Cheating on a spouse is a bad thing. However, VERY few betrayers here are unremorseful as you seem to think.<P>It's been my experience that the betrayers here have a LOT to offer in terms of HOW our spouses could get their thinking so messed up as to allow themselves to break their marriage vows.<P>The fact is, that this kind of thing happens ALOT. I still don't know HOW my wife was able to justify it to herself. She doesn't really know either. It's a testament to the screwiness that invades one's mind in these situations.<P>I urge you to contain your anger a little. Try to LEARN from the betrayers here. Perhaps they can help you learn to understand why YOUR spouse may have cheated.<P>(I'm assuming you have a cheating spouse. Sorry if that's wrong).<P>Anyhoo, please, you can disagree with betrayers on anything you want to. Just be polite and keep the name-calling to a minimum. The name-calling certainly doesn't help your credibility with anyone here. Makes you seem petty and vindictive. We're all here to help, but nobody will want to help if you're mean to them.<P>Just some food for thought.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

Elixir,<P>As the betrayed and betrayer, I offer no excuses, nor reasons... <P>As betrayer, I was selfish. I was wrong. <P>I understand your anger, as I have been betrayed. Often, I asked the same questions. And then one day I understood, because I was in my H's shoes. You don't understand this side, and I pray you never do. <P>I don't ask for your forgiveness, but I do ask for my H's. I come here to find strength in the storm. I also knew what this thread was about by the title, and read it anyway. God only knows why... He must have had his reasons to lead me here.<P>God bless you, and I hope you can find healing in your life.<P>------------------<BR>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<BR>

Hello Elixer,<P>Rats, I'm on this thread late (me too, LS)! It's a good one. And, there have been a lot of interesting perspectives shared. I'll try to add something constructive without just repeating some of the good things that others have already posted.<P>My first thought... there is no single, simple explanation for infidelity. It's different for many of us, and it's usually complicated. Like my fellow posters here I also strongly feel that most betrayers don't go into this capriciously. There are a lot of very good people here.<P>Many times, things happen out of desparation. Years and years ago, my wife was the first to break out of our marriage, feeling just that way. I freely admit some responsibility for her doing so. Even tho' it was not me who "cheated" in the well-used sense of the word. Hey, I just wasn't there for her emotionally. Which is worse? And, in retrospect, I do not blame her. <P>And did she ever pay a price! Wow, I wouldn't wish that on my enemies. The blows to her self-confidence and self-image took YEARS of hard work to overcome. Even though she could hear me saying and see me acting as if I forgave her, she only intellectually accepted it. Deep down inside, she still felt sooooo awful. Fearful...withdrawn.<P>7 years after she finally confessed what I already knew... that she'd had a long-term affair... things still weren't right. Long-story-short out of despair, I had one of my own. Me, Mr. Honor... Mr. Righteous. No one EVER believed that ol' DMac could ever stoop so low. Right. We all have that capability, Elixer. Doesn't mean we're evil.<P>Elixer, your anger is justified. Betrayal is not a pretty thing. But sometimes good people can do very hurtful things. Even for what they honestly think are justifiable reasons.<P>And, no one yet has posted about the impact of things like depression in betrayal. Especially after participating in counselling groups and forums like this, I see so much of it. <BR>For many people, depression is not something that can be wished away. There may be a chemical change in one's body that needs to be remedied. Some people try to self-medicate with drugs, alcohol, etc. Some may withdraw from human contact. Some get defensively angry. And, some may have any number of these symptoms as well as look for solace outside their marriage. <P>Depression played a huge part in my wife's affair. And, yes, it did in mine as well. Not that anti-dep medication is a panacea for the world's ills. But, it is another useful tool.<P>Hope we've given you food for thought. Let me add my welcome along with others who've welcomed you to the Forum.<P>be well,<P>Dmac<P>------------------<BR>That's right, you're not from Texas, that's right you're not from Texas. Texas wants you anyway. Lyle Lovett<P>"When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries of life disappear and life stands explained." Mark Twain, 1898.<P>

Elixir,<BR>You know what.... Your right!!!! By god how could I have been so blind before. You have truely opened my eyes.<P>No, not really. Listen, I can only speak for myself. When I found out that my W was a "creep" , I couldn't believe it. It went againts everything that I believed in and held sacred. I felt the emotional hurt, I felt the pain, I felt it all.... It shook me to the very core of my existance. It took everything I had just to stay alive. I think I have aged 10 years in the last 2 months alone.<P>Now I am the "creep". Yes, I cheated on my W during our seperation and just as bad I cheated on myself. Also a one night stand. And like you, I want to know why.... Why am I a "creep"???? I may never know the answer.... I know that I have and will always be a better person from this whole terrible mess. I have learned a lesson that NO ONE other than me could have taught. <P>People are people, We are humans. Simple as that. <P>creep = human<P>human = mistakes<P>mistakes = forgiveness<P>forgiveness = understanding<P>understanding = closure<P>I would be suprised if any of this makes sense... <P>Creep or not I love who I am and I love who my Wife is. Someday our love will bring us back together..... I hope.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P>

Elixir > I am the OM . . . the one you hate. <P>How do I live with myself ? By accepting the fact that I was born a sinner, and will die a sinner. If my greatest sin is loving a separated woman who has yet divorced, so be it. No excuses . . . just the way it is.<P>Destroying someone's life ? Hardly . . . the issues unresolved in your marriages were there long before I came into the picture. <P>So I remain patient, and accepting the consequences of my "lust" for this woman who is not the same person you married. We all change. So have you. She and I are now compatable. Five or ten years ago, or in the future ? Who knows . . . but for today, we are. And that is just the way it is.<P>The children are scarred from the pre-separation indecisions most couples make while one or the other clings to a sinking ship. Throw stones all you want, but the new mellinium is here, and now. Single parents are increasingly more common, and women no longer "need" a man to make it in this world . . . with, or without children. <BR>I do not want a woman to have as a friend in a long-term relationship who "needs" a man, nor do I care for the companionship of a woman who would leave her husband "for" me. <P>So I wait, and wait, and wait while you do all that you can to keep her as if she has no decision in this matter. Well, guess what. In America today, the traditional family is changing faster than most folks are willing to accept. <P>Excuse me for accepting the things I can not change, but for having the courage to change the things that I can. <P>How do I do it ? With unconditional love . . what a concept . . .

Hello Elixir, and welcome to the forum. You sure came in with a bang!! I appreciate your candid nature. Please join us in discussing judgement, guilt, forgiveness, etc. <BR>Hi Carlton, I am not sure that what you are describing is unconditional love? Here you go again, getting me started on the kids' issues.

Elixir,<P>Welcome to the most confusing forum on this Earth. You come here, and speak the truth, and who jumps on you??? Confirmed, admitted betrayers among others. Every single word you have written has been true in my Life. I too have written almost the same words as yours in the last 9 months..and guess what?? I got exactly the same response. I urge you to stand up for what you know is right. Be careful not to let this "clique" of infidels who are now "good" people, (and let's get this straight, I am NOT saying they are not NOW acting as good people) get you down. I have written here before, and tried to explain how confusing, and horrifying it is, for a hurt, dying, screaming for help from this unholy pain, betrayed spouse, to come here..and find out that the most vocal, the most "popular" people you will meet here,,,are people who were betrayers, liars, sexual addicts, and more. Here this person is, trying to find a way out of this Hell their spouse has thrown them into..they come here searching for help..and they find themselves surrounded by a most vocal, domineering group of admitted betrayers, liars,,,you fill in the rest. And then you must listen to them lecture YOU on how you should respond to your betraying, lying, deceitful, family destroying, spouse, as if they, the ones who betrayed, now have a moral upper hand.<P>Also, I'm sure you have noticed how if you use a word like "creep"..people come out of the woodwork to condemn you..."How dare you call someone a name!..It does no one good to call a betrayer a creeep"...and on and on. Many here act as if a word like "creep" or "infidel" is a disgusting thing to say to a person..my God Elixir...we are talking about a person who has destroyed families,,,many people's lives are now changed forever..You speak of children, this is the most horrible legacy my wife has left all of us. My two wonderful children, now have as a mother, a woman who is capable of living two lives, screwing another man weekly, for 5 years and lying to everyone in my family and all of our friends...this is not a pretty sight to behold. And how is their life going to play itself out? How will they be affected by having a mother who has done this? <P>And as you brought up about the OP....my God, what kind of animal (would creep sound nicer) prey on another man's/woman's spouse? What kind of evil entity is inside them that could let them ignore the children, parents, siblings and all others who they will affect by their predatory behavior??? These people should have a special place in the Devil's Hell, and I hope they do.<P>To close, take the criticism you will get here with a grain of salt, know that there are many who come here often, who feel the same way you do, and who don't have the heart and strength to say it. Look at how you have been attacked for speaking the truth. Do this, watch who responds to my words when they see that I have written,,it will be an education, and if you would like, take note of their names..and read their stories..you will find it enlightening.<P>Take Care of yourself,<BR>Never be afraid to speak the truth,<BR>Stand up for what you know to be True,<P>DG99(H)<p>[This message has been edited by Disgrace99d (edited September 24, 1999).]

Time is no longer for trying to excuse behavior. All of the miserable creeps go back into hiding where we belong, so as not to cause dissention or try to help. Or even, God forbid, to try to make reparations. <P>As DG99 says in some such verbage, "unless you know my situation, do not ever dare to make false presumptions regarding my own scenario"..