WH is gathering more clothes and getting ready to leave. We haven't talked to the kids again yet. Tonight H and DS were wrestling, you know rough housing. DS who is 12 wears size 13 shoe and is just about as tall as H, he's no pushover. In the rukus DS got hurt. H felt really bad I could just see it in his face. He handled the situation great. Being tender and taking care of DS but not babying him. By the time H was leaving for meeting DS was just fine and thrilled that daddy didn't treat him like a little boy and was doing push ups so he can take daddy full on next time. I recognized that man, he is the one I love. That was my H. By the time he came in to tell me he was going he had turned back into WH.

The meeting he is going to tonight is the organization OW had also belonged to. She resigned in March. WH is resigning tonight. I think. When WH looks at me I don't see the man I love. I miss him a lot. I hope he comes home some day.

I have an appt with lawyer tomorrow to get a court order for custody and support. I told WH about it and apparently he has also talked to a lawyer, he has not tried to talk me out of it. It feels so official and formal and scarey. I can't go on living the way we have. WH doesn't seem like he wants to leave but has agreed to go. Until he is ready to commit to this marriage and maintain NC with OW I don't see any other way. If I don't stand up for myself I think he would just continue.

I see the hel! other people are going through and think "why am I so upset?" He's not abusive, he has never threatened or raised a hand to us. But I think we all deserve to be happy and thrive not just survive.

C42,

U R correct about thriving vs surviving. Take the steps to help you thrive. If the WS wants to shed his WS image and come back as your spouse, then that w/b his undertaking.

No one should be allowed to live with you and not want to bring you happiness.

L.

I just got back from the lawyer...I almost didn't go. I don't want a divorce. The OWH did install a keylogger and got 8 pages of IM text. Whenever I start to waiver I re-read it. In the text my WH shows he has very little respect for me. It gave me strength to do what I needed to do. My lawyer commented on how calm and prepared I was. I owe that to you guys. ((((((thanks)))))). She says I have grounds for divorce and can file now if I choose. I'm not quite ready for that yet. But we will get the paperwork done for property settlement and parenting time.

WH has agreed to leave since I confronted him with continued contact with OW. But he is still here. He's working on the house and planning our family vacation to go RVing out west for 18 days. Its Mother's Day weekend. I'm having a difficult time avoiding LB. If he wants to be here and go on a family vacation with me and the kids why is he still in contact with OW?!

I HATE LIMBO!!!!!

He knows I went to the lawyer, he has been cooperative with that. I know he's fences sitting but he won't budge from the fence! If he wants to be with OW ... he should go. If he wants to be here he should BE here. Its so frustrating! How do I handle this?

I just re-read my own post. WHY in the world am I GIVING him power? I have my plan. I guess I get sidetracked. I think because even as much pain that he has caused I still love him, I want him to love me and I want to forgive him. So anything positive he does I take as a sign that the alien has gone back to the mother ship.

I know this will not be easy. I also know either way it works out I will be ok, actually I'll be better then ok I'll just fine and I will have peace and be happy. And I will do whatever I need to do for my children to be happy. And WH has to live in HIS reality before he'll be ready to move forward. Oh well his loss.

C42,

I had posted 2 u this morning but then lost it. Had to go to work and got back a couple of hours ago. Ok, now I will try to get the gist of that post so please bear with me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Your H is on the fence and you are not, so having an R with a fence sitter is not feasible.

Ok, realize that recovery comes in 2 stages: Personal and marital.

Personal c/b had by anyone willing t/d the work. Marital requires the cooperation of both the W & H.

Personal recovery for you is already in motion but you maybe trying to speed up recovery in the wrong places. You can't control a WS sitting on the fence but you can control yourself from giving him 'his cake'.

Think of it from this angle, a WS recovery c/b like baking a cake. The WS wants just a piece of it but it isn't even made yet. He irritates you for that 1 piece but you still have to get the ingredients, utensils and recipe. Then you need to combine the ingredients in the right order, set the correct temperature, put the ingridients in the correct baking pan, bake for the required time, test it, remove from oven, cool it, decorate it, serve it and then the family can enjoy it. Oops, forgot that each member must bring him or herself to the table to eat it. The cake can be great but until each puts the effort forth to enjoy it, only the visible EN is satisfied, the entire person still lacks the true enjoyment of smell and taste until they put the effort to have their cake and eat it to.

This cake making stuff c/b hard work. Better if the both of you worked on this project together. Just like marital recovery. It isn't enjoyable or always appreciated if one person is doing all the work. Better if both share the load and the benefits.

As for the WS, he must shed his WS skin and morph back to a better H. When you feel safe, you will also change to be the better W. You should not give a piece of cake (aka: marital recovery or meeting an EN) to someone who does not deserve it. A WS does not deserve a piece of cake no matter how long he sits on that fence. See sitting on a fence and eating cake requires balance. A WS does not have balance. So even if he should get a 'piece of cake' from either you or someone else, he can't be sitting on the fence and eating his food. Cuz' what's he gonna do after he eats and has to go.....? LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

You are at a prime time to make your point in a very mind altering manner. He wants t/b home but the selfish A makes it hard for him.

Do you plan A or B? IMHO, this is the prime time to identify your boundaries, implement them and then plan B. See he already sees the futility of the A but he the addiction to it draws him into the A web. The OW now feels she has her death grip on the WS and to a certain extent, she does. Better to let him feel her death grip and you pull yourself out fo the drama so that you and your family appear t/b the more attractive pkg. There are a few scenarios out on MB right now where the WS went so crazy that he landed himself in jail all the while proclaiming how great the OW was. Yea, well hanging around the OW is what helped the WS into jail and only after he went before a judge and then some did his messed up decisions finally hit him. Now not even his parents approve of his choices. He is finally admitting he made a mistake but look at how long and how much it took.

You can share some of these wacko experiences with your WS. I did and when my WS would see and acknowledge the other experiences as insane, I'd gently remind him that his current course was closer to being like those experiences than the rest of us sane people. Oh boy, that shook him up. While he felt his experience was 'unique', I shared the WS babble and let him know he babbled just like the other 'insane' WS and let him draw his own conclusions was to whether he was inasane also. I did not voice my opinion, just shared these stories. At the time, my WS even spoke to a few MBers and read here, so he knew I wasn't making this stuff up.


Hope this helps,
L.

Quick update...
Mother's Day was ok. I had to work WH was home with kids. They cleaned the house (the kids mostly) they did a GREAT job. WH took them shopping and paid for the presents. He cooked dinner.

We are getting a long fine...and then I remember the contents of that 8 page IM. He still denies contact. I don't think they saw eachother so he doesn't think it counts. He is still willing to move out because of the rollercoaster ride. I think I could use the space myself.

My question is...we are planning an 18 day trip cross country RVing with the kids. It seems like we are all really looking forward to this. I think it would be wonderful to be away from here having fun together and I wouldn't be worried about contact with OW. Family here think its a REALLY bad idea to go away with him now.
What do you guys think???

Well, look at it like this. What makes you happy? Does it make you happy just to be with him, no matter what? (That's the way I am - pitiful, isn't it?) If your answer is yes, then go.

Does it make you happy to be with him only if he is paying attention to you and not in touch with OW? If your answer is yes, then don't go.

How will you feel if he is in touch with OW constantly? (This is what happened to me last summer - I was so looking forward to 2 weeks away with him to get him away from OW) They talked on the phone several times a day and sent text messages back and forth the rest of the time. He always had to "pull into a rest stop and stretch his legs" right after his phone vibrated. It was the most miserable two weeks of my life (almost). But I was still happier to be with him than not to be. So, weigh your options and decide what will make you most happy.

Its the stangest thing. We just spent the last 4 hrs sitting side by side mapping out our vacation route make reservations and plans etc. In previous posts I mentioned I was feeling somewhat detached. Its very odd. When I look at him, I really don't expect anything. I'm looking forward to our trip and think the kids will be blown away by what we have planned and I have no romantic expectations.

He's been sleeping out in the RV the last couple of nights and I have no desire to stop him. I'm not upset. I'm not disappointed. I'm not angry. I can't put my finger on it but its kind of peaceful. I don't know if this makes sense. It seems odd to me and I thought I'd share it.

Good to hear from you. As for your vacation, well like Starz says, it could make you angry knowing all this time and $$ is put into the vac and to have it spoiled by his contact, even if it is once during the vacation.

IMHO, I would tell him that any contact with the WS will end the vacation immediately. You have to mean it though and the children w/b disappointed. If he can guarantee that there w/b NO contact, then let him know you will 'think about it'. No definite answer. Let him wonder what you will decide. This is a test you can use to measure his real intent.

Often a WS will use a vacation excuse to stir up trouble and then use it as an excuse to get out of the family. This ruins the vacation for the entire family and often not worth the effort of the vacation.

So identify your boundaries. Respect, honesty, care and truth are vital to making this trip a success. If he can't spend the same amount of time at home without having some contact (I say communication of any sort - so as to cover all contact), then he isn't worth taking on a trip. He just isn't. Better you and the children go enjoy each others safe and fun company.

See after you ID and implement your boundaries it is really up to him. My H had contact with the OW and ended it with her just before my well planned vacation back in 2003. I didn't realize they were in contact, then when I was visiting my parents, I get an e-mail from the witch and she basically tried to ruin my vacation. The nut had a problem with time and used info from older e-mails and inserting them into her new one so as to confuse the enemy. My advantage was I had a great memory as to the A stuff so I saw right through it. However, there was contact and my boundary required the WS stay away from his family. Each time those times away got longer and his return had more requirements. By this time, he had no anger towards our family. Instead he was very cooperative and basically did everything I required. OW hated that and slapped him with an RO hearing upon our return from vacation. I went to court with him and the rest is history. I still have the opportunity to put her but into a sling but at this time it is more rewarding letting her wonder when I will do this. LOL!!!

Those are just my thoughts. Ultimately, the decision w/b yours.

JMHO,
L.

Thank you so much for the feedback and your thoughts mirror mine. I'm not expecting a miracle here. I'm not expecting to go away on this vacation and come home with my H. One very positive thing about this trip is that it has given us something to communicate about. Something to plan and negiotiate.

I love to travel. I was an air force brat growing up I was born in Bermuda, we lived up and down the east coast and even in Germany for several years. Illinois is the farthest west I've gotten. I'm really looking forward to going west. I've got a friend in San Francisco that we will be stopping in to see. And there is lots to see and do in between. Maybe we should have traveled more. We were always saving money for the next house project and never got around to it.

Right now I'm looking at him as a traveling companion.

We decided that he will stay home until after the trip so we can save more money to spend on the trip. I've laid my bounderies for respect. My bounderies have been weak. He knows exactly how to fullfill my EN when he wants to, most of the time he chooses not to. (ok mom stop reading now) The only EN he has allowed me to fullfill for him is SF. These needs have been met on a pretty regular basis. The problem is, it weakens my resolve and makes me vulerable to him. So for now he will be sleeping in the RV and no SF.

Before I posted on MB, my Mom and sister, got the brunt of my venting and my moods. They love me (and even WH) but didn't know what to say or how to help. Now that I have you guys I don't burden them with this mess so much. (not that they EVER said it was a burden.) So they check the postings every now and then to see how things are going. It saves alot of replay. They are as thankful for you guys as I am.
Your support has been a blessing.

TJ

I am also an Air Force Brat born in Bermuda. I hope you have a wonderful vacation.

Its a small world! What are the odds? 2 Air Force transplanted Bermuda onions both posting on MB.

H and I went on a cruise to Bermuda before kids. (Had a GREAT time). While we were there I bought some art from a local artist. She was very old and very funny. She said she prided herself on being able to identify where people were from. She was able to pick out H was from PA. She couldn't get a handle on where I was from. I told her NJ and she didn't believe me she said "You may live there but you are not FROM there." I grew up in Maine and in Florida and in Illinois so certain words come from different parts of the country. After awhile she kept saying "No, no there is something more there is a calmness about you. There are layers. YOU are born here. YOU are a Bermuda Onion!"

Things have been very quite. No unaccounted for time. No LB. A few deposits. WH is still sleeping in the RV. My choice. He washed his car this weekend, the pollen is terrible here. I looked outside and saw him washing my car too. He hasn't done that in a long time. He came in and annouced the cars were depollenized.(EN...looking for recognition? admiration?)I said "Oh, thats good. The pollen is really bad now." A couple of times he came to where I was to talk about different projects or just to see what I was doing. Again, hasn't done that for a long time. I didn't go to work today ( I ate something that didn't agree with me and I was up all night) he IM'd me when he saw I was on line to ask why I was home. Then he called me at lunch to see how I was feeling.

I am surprised and cautious.

OW was on line again this morning. OWH took keylogger off of their computer because she felt violated. He loves her so much. Its too bad she can't appreciate what she has because the rate she is going she won't have it much longer.

Right now I think I'm doing a pretty good plan A with bounderies. Before I think I was doing more of a doormat plan A. We'll see how things go after our trip.

I attempted to address one of the big issues in our M. WH & I are huge conflict avoiders. When he came home from work tonight he barely acknowledged me. We have plans to do work on the house. Since I was off today I spent a great deal of time making phone calls and even had someone come out today and give an estimate on the job. I really felt like I had accoplished something. I called WH at work and left a message. I didn't hear anything back from him. When I was telling him about the estimate. He told me that he had already talked to one of his friends and he would rather pay him to do the job. As I was telling him the details of what the contractor said, he turned his back to me and nextelled his friend. I was so ANGRY. When he does this I feel very disrespected. Normally I would just shut up and smoldered. Tonight I asked when he and friend had discussed the job and that I would appreciate being kept in the loop. Because I felt as if I wasted a good part of my day for no reason. He just looks at me and says nothing. He refuses to make conversation with me. He'll TELL me things. He'll listen when I tell him something. but there is little back and forth. Its one sided conversation. From the IM between WH and OW he mentioned to her "She (me) tried to get me to talk. But it didn't work."

He knows conversation is big for me. It always has been. He can joke around and make conversation with other people so I know he has the ability. Its as if he does it on purpose.

I don't think this M is going to work. I don't think he is or will be, willing to change. And I will not go on living with someone who ignores me. But at least for tonight I stood up for myself. I spoke my mind and he is still sleeping the RV. I am pretty certain he had contact w/ OW today. His eyecontact is poor and his overall demeanor was negative. When she's not partying she tends to whine about how her life is sooo unfair. Sometimes I think they deserve eachother.Right now he sympathsizes with how she has been unjustly made out to be the "bad guy", he'll eventually tune her out too. He's already lying to her, telling her just what she wants to hear.

Sometimes I wonder if he's worth all this. I'm beginning to feel like I'm worth more than he's willing to offer. Kind of gives me a new perspective. I think I've looked at myself as "damaged" goods and put up with more than I should have.

WH has been sleeping in the RV for the last couple of weeks. I had told him that I needed space. It actually has worked out pretty well. After the kids go to bed he heads out back to the RV and he gets up early for work. 2 nights ago he fell asleep on the couch and I let him sleep there the night. Last night he slept on the couch and came up to bed about 2 AM. He pushes those bounderies! Tonight he had a "business" dinner. I'm thinking back to the RV with you buddy. I think he would be very happy to slide right back to being a man who has a wife.

Its so frustrating!

My DS 12 is having trouble in school (not doing his homework) and he has been lying to us about it. No wonder! WH lies and we have shielded the kids as to whats going on between us. Great example we are setting.Still we have been trying to teach him responsibility and owning up to his mistakes and making a plan to correct them. He actually is doing pretty well. He has a written plan with obtainable goals. I think WH could take a lesson from HIM.

One of the issues in my marriage is communication. My WH or even when he was H doesn't talk to me very much. I get a lot of one word answers.
Me: How was your day?
WH: Busy
Me: Did you end up having that big meeting?
WH: Yes
Its like pulling teeth. Not enjoyable for either one of us. Even if I bring up a non-threatening, non-personal subjects like sports or current events. If I ask "What do you think about...blah, blah?" He says "I don't know" or he just looks at me. So I try not asking questions then he offers no information.

Posting here has been a life saver me. A lot of time I just vent. I've noticed I don't get many responses. So...I'm asking why. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Is there something in my communication style that closes off dialog? Does it seem like I don't listen? My goal is to promote discussion not inhibit it. I really would appreciate any feedback or advice.

Hi C42,

I posted to you a few weeks ago about the OWH and the keylogger. I'm so relieved to find out that you got some ammunition from it.

I am troubled, however, about you going on vacation with your H. He's already pushing your boundries (coming to bed) - you don't think that he'll push you any way he can if you go on a big trip with him?

About the bed thing - can you lock your door? There's no reason for him to join you in bed if you've made it clear that you don't want him there. That boundry needs to be enforced, even if it means waking him up and shooing him out the door to the RV at your bedtime.

I'm glad that you've found a place here to get things off your chest. I know that it certainly helped me with some of my demons (I won't threadjack and share details, just that I've found a lot of help on this website).

I don't think that it's your writing style that is preventing you from getting responses, maybe just that you're not enforcing your boundries hard enough, and it's hard for people to reply to that. Maybe a 2x4 is in order - you need to enforce your boundries if you're going to make progress in your M. There's no way that your H would respect a Plan B scenario if he won't even sleep where you've asked him to. Make sense?

Take care,
Cat

Cat,
Thanks for the reply. Your right my boundaries are a BIG problem area. The way I look at this vacation, its a once in a lifetime kind of thing. It just so happens that this is a trip we have been wanting to do for a long time. Everything has fallen in place, we have the money to do it, we can both get the extended time off from work, the kids are the perfect age and if we divorce there is no way we would be able to do it as a family. I didn't want to do Plan B before the vacation because it would be time limiting. And if plan B is required after we get back, he'll have more to think about. When I get to plan B it I intend it to be a strong plan B.

He slept on the couch last night, I gave no indication I wanted him upstairs. There is no lock on the door. Its an old house skeleton key has been missing for decade.

Gotta get back to work. Thanks for the feedback!!