DG99:<P><sigh> Here we go again.<P>Nobody here faults you OR Elixir for how you feel. Nothing wrong with YOUR point of view. However, the spirit of this board is the discuss issues intelligently and civilly, NOT to call each other names and be mean to other people.<P>There are some (but not many) betrayers here who are NOT repentent for their behavior. They have no business here. But, for the most part, those who are here RECOGNIZE their mistakes and are trying like heck to make sense of it, to "make it up to" their spouses, and to get on with life. It certainly doesn't help matters to have bitter people calling them "creeps" (or worse). They know what they did was wrong. How many times do y'all have to beat them up about it?<P>If it makes you feel better to call them names and constantly point out what bad people they were, go ahead. I suspect, however, that most of the long-timers here will just tune you out. Unfortunately, there are so many new faces every day, you're bound to keep getting the outraged reactions you seem to crave.<P>I wish you could be less bitter, because I find a lot of interesting material in your posts. The "us against the world" attitude makes it hard to swallow, though.<P>Just a late night ramble.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

Elixir:<P>Actually, sincere truth speakers and truth seekers do not generally arouse the collective ire of this forum. Neither do betrayers or betrayed per se. It's usually the perceived attitude of the poster that induces others to comment negatively.<P>If you post here as a betrayed, and right out of the gate you are insulting and making slanderous generalizations about groups of people, and cloaking it as a quest for truth, don't be surprised if you are called on it.<P>By the same token, if you post here as one trying to justify an affair, and smugly belittling those who are personally or morally opposed, be prepared to weather the onslaught.<P>And lastly, if you come here high on your pedestal, declaring yourself above all this, and condemning those who have succumbed, you may just get pity. Because those who have fallen know just how unstable pedestals can be.<BR>

Elixir<P>There is truth in your words. Unfortunately all the "creeps" that your anger is directed to do not post on this board. They have gone on with their lives oblivious to the carnage they have wrought.<P>Before I found this board I felt exactly the same. But I have come to realise how my wife's affair came about and my part in getting her to that situation. Yes it was her decision, not mine. I have also realised that but for circumstance and opportunity I was and still am vulnerable to an affair. <P>Thanks to the betrayers who share on this board I can see their pain too. Thanks to the betrayed I can learn to forgive regardless of the outcome. Thanks to all I believe I will never betray my loved ones.<P>There are successes and failures, a lot of hard work, a lot of emotional rollercoasters in this part of the world. There are a lot of betrayed and betrayers who each have regrets for what has happened, but I only see good people trying to help one another through an almost impossible time in their lives. <P>Creeps? They must have their own board somewhere else.<P>

Elixir and Disgracee99d,<P>I think you tow are entitled to your feelings and opinions for sure. But I just had a couple of questions for the both of you. Being that this is a site for building marriages, how do you propose that your anger will help you or any of the rest of us rebuild our marriages? Also, what would you like the betrayers on this forum (or your spouses) to do? Would you like them to be here for you to beat up on when you want to, or would you like to see them grovel, or would you like them to be miserable for the rest of their lives? What is it that you want?<P>If all you want is the opportunity to vent, you have that here. But like a couple others said, be prepared to be met with the same from people who disagree. That's all part of life. Take a look. The unremorseful betrayers wouldn't be posting here. They have left their spouses or are continuing to cheat. They are on the Philanderer's Forum. You could have a field day there.<P>I just think that what you're looking for, you're not going to find here. We are people trying our best to HELP each other. Take care.

Hello Elixer, et al,<P>Wow, was cl right. You sure did make a splash here with your first post. <P>For sure you hit a very sensitive, emotion-fraught nerve. And, I'd bet most of us here would be willing to admit we have to deal with our own personal anger, disappointment, guilt, despair, and any combination of these and other strong emotions.<P>You are right to seek your own personal brand of truth. All of us need to understand why things happened the way they did for us.<P>As for the betrayers here, basically all of us are here to work hard at making things better. It's assumed in the Forum name: Marriage Builders. It's also assumed that part of the process of making things better is flushing through anger.<P>There's room for lots of opinions here. Some controversial. Sometimes controversy can be constructive. As your first topic here, you've chosen one which has been a controversy for a long time. It's been one which I've certainly been involved with. And I find myself on opposite sides to D99.<P>Simply, here it is. I do not believe that the people in this Forum who are betrayers are "EVIL!!!!". <P>Betrayal is an awful thing. It is a hurtful thing. It can be so damaging. But, I've also seen that in some cases the worst victim of the situation can be not the betrayed, but the betrayer. It's the betrayer who has to live with the responsibility and consequences of their choices.<P>If I could offer you one piece of advice it would be this: try your hardest to forgive. If your marriage has a chance to work, you must forgive your wife. She must also forgive herself. Through mutual acceptance will you rebuild your marriage. It's the only way.<P>Anger is natural, anger is human. Sometimes anger can be constructive. Over the long term, anger becomes destructive. And, D99, if you are reading, please consider it. Your family's future will never be as bright as it could be if you do not give up your anger.

I believe I have to agree with Elixir's concept here, although I do agree with others that calling them creeps won't help. Each person's case is different, but in my case I believe my H was the one at fault. I didn't drag him by the arm and throw him into the OW's bed. He went there upon his own free will, even if he was inebrietated, fully knowing the pain and heartache he would cause me, as well as her husband. I was always "there" for him, treated him with love and kindness, cared for his every need, and truly loved him. But he did it anyway. He chose that path for himself, I did not choose that for him. What I feel that I was at fault for in our situation, was for letting him walk all over me for so many years.

I may FEEL or may have felt the same way as elixer...and if that's her final feeling, then she is free to leave the marriage and move on with her own life.<P>If you recommit to the marriage, however, you will never recover a healthy relationship if you maintain this attitude.<P>It's OK to feel what you feel, but to commit to your journey of forgiveness and healing which is long, hard and very personal.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Wow...this one really dragged a lot of the old-timers out of the woodwork...hello to old friends K, Doug, LoneStar, Maya, rjr & all <P>Elixer said the betrayer "willingly gives up their humanity". Actually, this is inaccurate. The betrayer *ignorantly*, *blindly*, *naively* gives up their humanity. Anyone who believes infidelity is a well-thought-out decision doesn't understand the nature of it. I think we can all agree it is irrational in every way. My head was certainly in a fog. AT THE TIME, it made sense to me. <P>Someone also used the phrase that a betrayer has lost all hope in their marriage. That is the best nutshell desciption of how an affair can happen that I have ever read. The scariest part? Most of the time, the betrayer-to-be is not even aware that this has happened. Read TMan's post again to get a feeling for the insidious nature of affairs.<P>The reasons for this loss of hope are endless: depression (which my H DMac and I both - unknowingly - suffered with); general breakdown of marital communication; lack of attention & nurturing paid to the marriage (AND the spouse!) - everyone on here has their own unique combination of factors that eventually led to the disasterous meltdown of their marriage.<P>Did I behave in "creepy", evil ways during my affair? You betcha. Am I proud of what I did? Absolutely not. Do I believe I was justified in doing it? Absolutely not.<P>But I was hurting, I was dumb, I was lonely, I was in despair, I was ignorant of how to fix what was wrong with my marriage, I was ignorant that I COULD even fix what was wrong with my marriage! I had lost hope. In other words, I was human. And I made some bad choices that soon snowballed into humongous, life-altering bad choices. As D99 or Elixer phrased it, "walking away from a life of deceit and betrayal and becoming human again" was the most painful journey I have ever made. There is no pain like that of coming to realize you have not only betrayed your beloved and your children, but *yourself* and everything you believe in too. You need to rebuild yourself, your marriage, your whole life, from the boots up.<P>Let me leave you with some food for thought. DuncanMac and I are most definitely a "success story". So are K and his wife (and Elixer, if you want to read a lulu of a story, read K's). So are LoneStar & Petunia, rjr & her H, new woman & her H, Maya & her H. And others here too numerous to mention. <P>What do we all have in common? We have all, betrayed and betrayer alike, tried very hard to *understand* what went wrong in ourselves and in our marriages; to own up to our own parts in the breakdown, and to take corrective action. This *is*, to me, "taking responsibility" for my actions. But I want to make very clear that I was INCAPABLE of doing this before & during my affair, as I suspect most betrayers are. It has taken me a very long time to come to a full understanding of the whole mess.<P>Also, none of us has refused to forgive our spouse for their transgressions. None of us has chosen to view our spouse as evil, depraved, horrible. Each of us has decided, quite simply, that life is too short to remain mired in acrimonious blame and pain forever. We have decided to move on. We are enjoying the hard-won fruits of what have become wonderful marriages; marriages with a depth and trust and closeness we could not even imagine before. At first, I was so afraid it might dissipate - could I trust it?? - but it just gets better and better .<P>The alternative is to condemn yourself to the endless agony that D99 seems to be in. I feel for his obvious pain; but I can't help feeling insulted and angry when he periodically shows up to belittle as misguided morons those of us who refuse to demonize ourselves or our wayward spouses, and instead have chosen to understand and accept our humanity, forgive, and move on (but, as LoneStar said, most of the old-timers have learned to tune him out).<P>Elixer, I hope your pain is just so new & raw that you needed to vent, and that is fine. Because you are at a fork in the road and have a choice to make about what course your life will take. Victim-mentality is useless in life. Don't wallow in it. Your happiness is up to you.<P> <P><P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

The only creep here is an unrepetent OM who chooses to die as a sinner rather than repent. Creep is a nick name for another name that begins with "C".<p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited September 25, 1999).]

tnt - won't do any good (unfortunately)... too stuck on his own profound wonderfulness. Good try, though!

Hi Elixer,<P>More thoughts to share... you've really hit a good one here!<P>Is betrayal a "human" trait? Absolutely. Almost by definition, one has to have some sort of trusting relationship to betray.<P>I was raised with the encouragement to look for the good in all things, all people. In almost 45 years, I've seen nothing which would deter me from that philosophy. <P>Oh, I've seen plenty of awful behavior mixed in with lots of good. I've seen deception. I've seen people hurt each other physically and emotionally with purpose, with malice. I've had my little share of disappointments too. Nothing life-threatening, thankfully but I've had some moments of angst.<P>When it comes to betrayal in marriage, from my experience, an "act" of betrayal (ie: sexual infidelity) is a unilateral decsion. Most of the time, it is hidden from the spouse. But, it does not happen in a vacuum. In most of my experiences, lived or observed, it is just the next step in a process. It's the deterioration of a relationship for which BOTH are responsible.<P>The lying, the deception, the hurt that follows this act of betrayal are all sad. There's plenty of cause for anger in them. But, they are unmistakeable human.<P>I choose not to judge people because they step out of their marriage. Although I do full-well know that this causes tremendous damage to self-image and the relationship, I can't bring myself to see most who make this choice as evil people. Ironically, there are even times when the act of betrayal can be constructive. It forces a relationship into perspective. I am a living example of how this can happen. Others are as well.<P>You do ask some good questions. And, they need to be asked. When you ask "WHY?"<BR>I believe you sincerely want to understand.<P>You've seen my wife, Suse, post. Now I'll try to help you see my side of our situation. Why did I betray? Because I'd lost hope that I very deep, deep need I had for intimacy and connection would never be met. I just couldn't take it any more. I was tired, depressed, and tried to find solace with someone else. There was a part of me I felt would never be whole.<P>At the time of this outside search for intimacy, I had NO THOUGHT of abandoning my marriage or my children. I made a conscious choice to betray. <P>Can you imagine the internal conflict I went thru before taking that step? My wife is a good woman. We had a 20+ year relationship. We'd been thru thick and thin. She'd had an affair of her own, we'd worked thru it, and all was forgiven. We have two sons whom I adore and care for. <P>My word has always been good. That's how I was raised. With honor. I come from a culture which respects honor above all things. And, yes, I dishonored myself. While in the midst of it all, I had to live with that. And, I hoped no one would ever know.<P>Well, I couldn't handle it all. When I finally cratered, I told Suse. As you can surely imagine, this confession was agony. But something happened, eventually. Suse lifted me up. She gave me strength. She opened up to me in ways she never had. <P>Elixer, this was a miracle. This SURELY was something I'd never imagined possible. I'm so very lucky.<P>My conclusion: affairs can happen to otherwise good people. It is part of our humanity. I've yet to meet the perfect human. <P>Hope this helps.<BR>

I shoulda read Airheart's thread first. <p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited September 25, 1999).]

Elixir,<BR> Gosh, I recognize the pain in your post. Sounds exactly like I felt 19 months ago when I discovered my H's affair only my posts weren't quite as frank and eloquent. I was so filled with rage, anger and dispair that I really felt as though I was losing it. And along came my friends,,D99's(H)(W). I don't know if I could have made it to the point I'm at today if I hadn't had someone to share this terrible pain with, someone that really understood. Yes, there were many others that helped lift my spirits, HGB, Almost Happy and others but the D99's allowed me to share this anger and let me know I was not alone with those feelings. Please listen closely to what they have to say. The D99's are making it. Yes, they still have pain (so do I and anyone else that has been through this mess) but they are making it. <BR> D99's(H)(W),,,so good to hear from you. I've missed you on this forum and I'm glad to see you again.Your insight and input are still needed. Just remember how valuable you are, if you can help one more person as much as you helped me. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I've tried to email you in the past but apparently lost your correct address. If you still have mine,,email me. My H and I are 19 months into rebuilding and doing better than I could have ever hoped. Here's hoping everything has been good for the two of you.

Elixir-<P>Not so long ago I was where you are. I just never really said it like that. Partly because I was taught that sweeping generalizations usually erode your credibility. A cheater hurts those who love them, but most of all they hurt themselves. As you so wisely said they throw away their humanity. This is true.<P>My H cheated and lied and devastated me. I decided I wanted to remain in this marriage and I came here to learn and build. And I am doing just that. <P>It has been 4 months and 4 days since I confronted my husband and he renounced the OW. It hasn't been easy, but he admitted his seldishness and his responsibility. And with the help of God and this board I have forgiven him.<P>I still cry at night from time to time. I still check on him from time to time. Mostly out of self-preservation. Fortuantely for us my checking has proved him truthful. So I use it to build on.<P>Welcome to our group of people in various stages of pain. You are like I was angry AND HURT. Time and God can heal you if you want to be healed.<P>Most of those here are caring recovering people, who will help you if you listen with love and honesty. Some are not, but you can ignore them.<P>SHA, Duncan, Maya, Lone and all the others who just came out of the woodwork so nice to see you. We have missed you here.<P>God bless you Elixer

ok, thats it.... I absolutely disagree with the instigators. They seem to paint the betrayers as the outspoken voice on this forum. What a bunch of horse pucky.... When I first came here I was bleeding bad... Some of you remember the first day I was here. If it weren't for those who responded to me, both betrayers and the betrayed, I may never have gotten as far as I did. <P>So I say to you the ones who seem to throw sticks and stones, Get over it. Stop yelling so much and listen to what others have to say.... You might actually learn something. <P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P>

Nerlycrzy,<BR>Hello to you too, nice to know you are still around also. We'll have to exchange mail addresses again, if you have lost ours. <BR>Thanks as always, for standing up and being counted without fear.<P>DG99(H)<P>Suse:<BR>"Endless agony DG99 seems to be in"???? I am only 10 months since Discovery....under what calendar does that mean "ENDLESS"????<P>Curious....to know your answer...<P>

Elixer......there is no such thing as truth only our perceptions of what truth is...and we only react to things within ourselves that we dont like about ourselves....take a good look in the mirror..<P>Read the post 'Can It Ever Be The Same' by F A<P>There are some posts in there by a self proclaimed betrayer...that may help you to understand what this forum is all about...<P>[This message has been edited by cossie (edited September 26, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by cossie (edited September 26, 1999).]

This one's for D99 but I felt it belongs in this same thread...<P>You claim to seek the truth? You claim to want people to stand up for what is right? Well, here's a little outspokeness on what I know is true and right: You're one angry, mean, passive-aggressive, punishing individual who wants to wrap himself in in the mantle of self-righteousness. It gets old.<P>Bluntly, if you would ever listen to any of the advice people offer you here it's this: get over it, man.<P>You're "only" 10 months past discovery. Well I really empathize with ya, buddy. Pardon my sarcasm. Your posts sometimes seem to imply than NO ONE could EVER know your PAIN. No one's agony could be like yours. Pretty dang selfish of ya.<P>Listen, you have a wife who's trying to make the best of what you've got there. You're so freakin' lucky compared to some of the others in our group. Is your wife committed to your marriage? Is she remorseful? Is she trying to make it better? Does she love you? From what you've posted (and what SHE's posted!), she's all of those things. Lawdy, that's some awesome woman, D99. I'm serious!<P>I, for one, am tired of hearing your whining. My wife's affair went on for 6 years. Nyahhh, nyahhh, beat ya. I got OVER it! I love the stuffings out of her and want to show her every day! Suse found out about my affair "only" 11 months ago. She got OVER it! Heck, her loving approach from DAY 1 towards me worked miracles. <P>You claim to respect people who speak their mind. Well, respect this: if your longterm goal is to put that family and marriage of yours back together... GET OVER IT!

WAy to go Mac!<P>I am 7 months past first suspicion and 4 months past admission and well on our way to building a new and better marriage.<P>Letting go of the pain and forgiving was the best thing I ever did for me or our marriage. <P>D99, please let go of the pain that is eating you up from the inside out. Move on either by frogiving or walking out on your marriage. You will be better for it.<P>Some people , however, like to wallow in misery. Is that you? If so I feel very sorry for you.<P>God bless

D99, (and Elixir too)<P>Please read my thread, "My H is not a creep," and feel free to email me if you still have my address.<P>God Bless.<P>------------------<BR>No one said this (life) was going to be easy.<P><BR>