Dewt, we seem to be talking past each other because the discussion IS very much about posting styles, as there is no disagreement whatsoever about principles. And this would be why it appears to me that you are talking in circles and making no sense. You do not address my points - ever - rather you attempt to DEFINE my stance, but always miss the point. And my main point is that telling someone the truth in a forthright manner is NOT a disrepectful judgment, and trotting out all the Harley quotes and scriptures will not change that. That is the point and that is what you continually avoid answering.


I think that your issue is that you find the TRUTH to be very mean and rude, Dewt. And again, you don't even address my points where I demonstrate that even Jesus himself felt it necessary to harshly address injustice. He did not classify the truth as a "disrespectful judgement."


Well no, "we" didn't tackle this "discussion." I had left the forum and you waited until I left to post that.


I accept your apology and would only point out that when you suggest to someone HOW they should approach another, even giving exact verbiage, you are suggesting that your posting style is preferred and to be adopted. And again, we all agree on Marriage Builders principles, but how you apply them will be based on your personal interpretion, style, situation and audience. All of our communication styles are different and we should respect that.


Telling someone how they should post and even supplying the verbiage very much is a statement about your target's posting style. It says: "your posting style is faulty; does not live up to my standards, so please use mine." Otherwise, there would be no reason to supply "another" version, because we don't need to fix what is not broken.

I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about here because no one has ever suggested any such thing. Exaggerating my point out of all recognition contributes nothing to the discussion, Tiggy; rather, it detracts.


Don't people NEED to hear the truth? If someone is deluding themselves, the truth is usually a good start. Some sponsors tell people what they WANT to hear because they want to be liked, they want to get along - AT ALL COSTS. Others risk their wrath and tell them the truth, because they really do care.

I very much agree with ark on this point. It seems that the only ones we can judge, according to the dictates of political correctness, are "judgers." For some odd reason, this little rule against "judgments" does not apply to judging them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I would point out that we very much should be judging right from wrong and that our prisons are full of folks who could not. If ya can't judge right from wrong, that is probably where you should be. And if you WON'T, well then, the term moral coward very much comes to mind.

How did we ever get to this looney place where it is WORSE to say something is bad, that it is to actually DO something bad??

Dewt, I very much appreciate what you said. You know where to come when you're ready, my friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Im sorry you feel this, Ark. Perhaps you've had trouble hearing this because you're smug, pretentious, and giving to issuing quasi-mystical utterings full of ellipses which are meant to impress us? I mean, what do you think this is, a poetry competition?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Before everyone piles in to support Ark, let me explain. I didn't mean what I just said. Apologies, Ark; sorry to use you as an example. Your protestations were unnecessary, because you're one of the most respectful posters here. But being JUDGED isn't pleasant, is it? Especially when there's a smidgeon of truth in it, amid a lot that's false? Having someone else's scornful opinion of you presented to you as truth is not terribly useful, because all it makes you do is feel attacked and want to defend yourself. What I said was unreasonable, and very unfair. You would be right to take offence.

However, if I said that Ark's style of writing often confused me and made it difficult for me to work out her message, that is NOT judging. That is not pinning a label on her. It is simply pointing out the consequences of some of her actions. If her problem was that she felt that people didn't always understand her, what I just said would be useful feedback. She might still take offence, but I would not have crossed her boundaries. I would have remained within my own.


Judging. That word has rattled a lot of anti-PC cages. There is clearly a lot of anger about the current trend towards permitting inconsiderate behaviour out of a fear of being seen as 'judgemental'. This is especially true when the inconsiderate behaviour is actually hurting someone else, not ourselves directly.

OK, let's look at an example. Say, a father screaming at a child in a store. Many of us think that shouting at a child in a public place is a humiliation to the child and is poor parenting. But some people probably think that imposing parental control is an important part of parenting - that they're being responsible parents.

How do we deal with it? We could look away, insulating ourselves from the distress and being 'non-judgemental'. Or we could intervene, to protect the child. But for me to say "Excuse me, but this is disgraceful. You simply mustn?t do that to a child!" may be an honest attempt to defend the child's interests, but it assumes a parenting standard OF MINE that the father isn't reaching. The father may well be so taken aback by the intervention that he will think twice in future, but there is just as good a chance that he will think "Who is this arrogant biddy to tell ME how to parent my children?", because he feels UNFAIRLY attacked.

However, if I say "Excuse me, but I'm feeling very distressed watching you with your kid. I know how hard it is to manage children in a busy store, but from my own experience I also know that kids are often deeply affected by being yelled at in public settings. I know I used to find it very humiliating.", then I am not imposing my own parenting standards on him, and judging him lacking. I am not crossing his boundaries. I am describing my own reactions to his actions, and suggesting some consequences to what he's doing. He's likely still to be angry, and react with hostility to my intervention, but he's less likely to feel UNFAIRLY attacked, and therefore is more likely to go away and think about what I've said.

If a poster is telling us that they are being unfaithful, that they can't find it in them to care about their spouse, that they long for the OP and can't give them up - then clearly that poster's life is in a mess. They are out of integrity in a big way, and creating a gravity field of misery and confusion. They need to be woken up, and that's probably why they're here. It's a desperate, perhaps subconscious, cry for help. They need words that get through to them. But trying to wake them up by telling them that they're selfish scum for doing what they're doing is counter-productive. The WS knows that they're not actually wall-to-wall scum, that they're not TOTALLY selfish. So the message comes across as inaccurate and unfair, and the well-intentioned poster as vindictive and not worth listening to.

However, if the responder points out the facts - the consequences of the WS's actions, the gap between the WS's promises and what he's actually doing, if it suggests that he think about his feelings if he were to find himself on the other side of the fence, if it holds up a mirror to him so that he can see himself - then the WS may still be hostile, but it is much more likely that he will listen. Because deep down, he will know whether the message is honest and fair. Reaching across his boundaries and telling him that he should NOT be doing what he's doing will be picked up as dishonest and unfair. I am not setting his standards for him. Society is not setting his standards for him. The standards he is breaking are his own.

The majority of posters observe these boundaries. Pep, Mel, Ark, Orchid and all the other 'tough' poster almost always stay within their own boundaries and hold up a mirror to the WS. Some posters are superb at holding up that mirror with its cruel but honest reflection. But sometimes all of us stray close to the line, and sometimes we cross over, just a bit. That's inevitable. Let's cut each other some slack.

... and Ark, if I'm honest, I do sometimes get a little tired ...

...of the ellipses...

... because it makes me work too hard ...

... and because it's catching...

... even Pep ...

... is doing it now...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

TogetherAlone

Jimmy,

I think there is a wider problem - of generally disrespectful posting that is done on this forum - and I also think there is no real cure for it - except to remind people that anybody in the world can post here, and none of us should assume that any other poster knows what he/she is talking about - or that any other poster's judgemental postings have anything to do with the thread on which they appear.

When I first came here and started my first thread, almost 4 years ago, I backed out pretty quickly and edited away all of my posts on that thread - mostly because one poster, who I would recognize now as simply a reckless person who knew nothing about MB, said some hurtful things. (basicly he said "your wife is no good. Ditch her and get another.")

And I was a BS, not a WS.

So, I know the problem from personal experience.

I have been amazed many times to see people who keep coming back and facing the fire in spite of some ugly posts on their thread.

-AD

ONG, I LOVE that phrase!

I'm not good at debating, or even good at reading for that matter <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But I just love that phrase.

Not to come to Arks rescue (because we all know, rescuing she don't need) but I think she is by far... the brightest star! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I am enjoying reading your posts TA. And I'm not missing your point, just really like that phrase.

TA, what you just said to Ark does not reflect what I view as "judging." Rather, it reflects a false accusation delivered with scorn. [ad hominem attack, perhaps?] The points were basically false and delivered with scorn. [albeit to make a point - understood] Neither of which are traits of "judging." No one would react kindly to a false accusation delivered as an attack.

You do make a good argument for the importance of delivery methods, and I would agree 100%. Although, we all have different approaches and different ideas of "tact." [myself being at the outer edge, admittedly, because of a deficit of patience when it comes to bullshi**ers <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />]

However, I would never dream of calling an individual a "scumbag," but I wouldn't hesitate to point out that he/she acted selfishly in a certain situation, and would proceed to lay out my reasoning. The latter situation is an example of "judging," the former an example of abusive name calling. It would be unreasonable and unfair to call him a "scumbag," it wouldn't be unreasonable to point out his selfishness, provided it is a true and accurate assessment of his behavior in the situation.

And I have to say, that while I used to be confused by Ark's ellipses, they seem to have grown on me over the years. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mel,


And so here we sit, facing each other across the proverbial table, feeling pretty much exactly the same way...

So, let us pause a second... reassess, re-address and reset.

You said,


I can't find a single thing in this statement to argue against. I don't feel that telling the forthright truth is the equivalent of a disrespectful judgement. I don't think sugar coating the truth, or covering it is beneficial or helpful.

If you believed that this was my stance, that honesty = disrespectful judgement, then I could not fault you for becoming irritated with me and indeed would commend you on your restraint in your posts to me.

Please let me assure you that we are in agreement that honesty is the best policy.

However, I am of the position that a disrespectful judgement is ineffective and often counter-productive, and as MBers we should try to practice what we preach. I don't associate DJs with any particular posters 'style' but advocate that WHATEVER our style, we should avoid DJs and other lovebusters.


I'm going to ask for an apology on that one, Mel.

For one, I don't find the truth to be mean or rude. Hard to swallow, but the 'truth' actually amounts simply to a factual account of something. 'Mean' and 'rude' are emotionally based attributes and in this case reflect on the poster of the offending statement.

Secondly, not only did I interpret your statement as both mean and rude, but it is ridiculously far from the truth. The actual truth is that I look to Jesus and the Word of God for guidance in setting my standards. To declare, in such an insulting tone that I would presume to judge Jesus is not only inflamatory, but false.

In a way, I outta thank you, because you reminded me to add this extention to my posision. A disrespectful judgement is such regardless of whether it's based on truth or fiction.

Yes, even Jesus himself felt it was important to make a fuss. Yet his basic message was that he came to save the sinners and the sick. His message was to love and forgive one another. He did not berate the people who came to him for healing, he met them with Perfect Love and Perfect Grace. He allowed himself to be tortured and nailed to a cross and sacrificed so that we could be forgiven and accepted into God's presence.

And we did tackle that discussion. My reply to you was made only two hours after your last post on that thread. The converation had been going on previous to that post. 'We' did not finish the discussion. If you want to, we can.

Oh, and that little note to Jimmy was from me, by me, and on my own behalf. Nothing to do with you.

Take care,

dewt

Hey !

[color:"red"]is it just me ....?

anybody else starting to think

"Hmmmmm.... Mel and Dewt have a little thingy*thingy going on here"...

I mean....

they just cannot seem to be able to resist each other !!!! [/color]

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Well, Dewt, it appears that we actually disagree on very little after all. I very much did believe that you did equate honesty with disrespectful judgments and I am glad to hear you clarify that you don't. I apologize if I misunderstood your position. As you can tell, I sure don't equate honesty with dj's and have no respect for those who do.

And if you don't equate the truth with meanness and rudeness, then I, by all means, apologize. I equate the truth with beauty and justice and believe it is a gift from God to be able to discern the truth in the first place.


Jesus never minced words, as love is found in the truth, rather than nice words. When kindness was warranted, He was kind, when harsh words were required, he levelled harsh words. Nothing wrong with that, as sometimes it is necessary. Injustice outraged Him, as it does most Christians.

As far as your other post from months ago, I had already left the forum and believe I posted to that effect before I left. However, I have no intention of rehashing that old ugliness and would prefer we leave it behind us. Take care, Dewt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Go to bed, you dork! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Just for that, you earned a little present from Texas: just for you, honey <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I remember an excellent post once send by knewbetter after there was a similar discussion on this board… She talked about The Rule of Protection and how we can violate that rule if we are not careful of the choice of our wording on others. It all boils down to the following:

The truth MUST and SHOULD be spoken but there are many different ways to express it. Some are healing and others are not but the best way is for truth to be spoken in love. It is the best way to assure that the truth can be *heard*. Truth spoken in love is healing and helpful, the other way only sows discord. It's just not good enough to be hurtful and then say "Well but it's True!", and rubbing someone's nose in "Truth" definitely doesn't build good relationships whether they be marital or between board members.

I think the following is a good rule of thumb to examine what came out of our mouths:

1. Is it true?
2. Is it necessary?
3. Is it kind?

People can say hurtful things and defend themselves by saying they were being honest & truthful, but in reality they have been rude and inconsiderate of how others might perceive what they wrote simply because of the WAY they wrote it...

If a person (and it includes me) expresses him/herself without regard to the feelings of others, he/she is the cause of pain and unhappiness because it violates the Rule of Protection in regard to other board members. He/she then violate the *spirit* of the rule not the letter of it of course, as we MBers obviously are not married to each other. It's also a matter of common courtesy...just because this board is anonymous doesn't mean we have the right to be mean and/or insensitive to the feelings of others. As I've said before, it's not WHAT we say, it's the WAY we say it...

Pepperband et al:

There is a newbie WS over in the "In Recovery" area that could use some help.

Thanks,

Jimmy M.

Jimmy ... I think I will sit this one out. You're doing great. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Thanks.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Just wanted to put in my two cents...

If I've learned ANYTHING at all from the mess I got myself into by committing adultery, it's this:

No matter what anyone else says or does, I can control my own reaction to that. I am not a mind reader. I am treading dangerous territory when I assume I know the intentions behind a person's words, or even actions. I did that to my husband for years, and look what happened. That is my own fault. It was a hard lesson to learn, one that was NOT fun, and one that is still ongoing....but I am REALLY glad to have learned it.
Perhaps some of the responses I have received on this board were less than kind, and maybe even the intentions were to be cruel....I have no way of knowing. But, it doesn't matter anymore! I am fine, either way! It matters less how I got to this point, than it does that I got here.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


NOW

This will be my last post on this thread. This is just seems to be getting no where. Most everyone (including myself) is just reinforcing their own position and we seem to be going in circles.

I did want to respond to Mel's post.



I just had to say I am sorry if it seemed like I was exagerating your point. It wasn't my intent. It's funny I thought the same thing about some of your responses to me. I felt a few times that my words were twisted and what I was trying to say got lost. If that is what I did to you, I am sorry. I was simply trying to relate my life experience to the arguement you are putting forward--AA and the 12 step program. And I am sorry if you don't understand what my experience has been with the 12 step program. It's just that my experience. I will say one thing in light of alcoholic vs infidelity. Infidelity hurt far worse than living with an alcoholic. Just my experience though.


I have concluded a few things for myself in light of this thread:

I think everyone here cares about the people on this board and we just disagree with how the MB principles apply to the board.

I am grateful that my husband didn't post here, when foggy or later. He is sensitive and is recovering just fine without MB forum input.

I appreciate those who have shown me tough love with the 'love' part included.

Truth + tools on how to rebuild my life was the best combo for me and my marriage.

All above is just my own opinion.

Peace all.

Tiggy

Apparently, MelodyLane and I have reached perfect accord on at least one issue.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

dewt

She deserved that so bad! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />