DuncanMac,<BR>I am not asking for your opinions on Anything. If your wife had an affair for 6 years, and you "Got over it"..good for you. <P>You don't know what my Life is like, so please refrain from telling me "how I am"...and anything else about my life. I don't pretend to know what your life is like, and never would "tell" you how it is. If you feel it is wrong for me to have ANGER after what has happened in my Life, then that is your opinion, but I am not asking for your opinion. It is simple to me.<P>Just because it wasn't such a big deal for your wife to have sex with another man for 6 years, doesn't mean it isn't a Life changing event for ME. Please make your way through your life the best you can. Let me make my on way, and I give you my word not to try to tell you how to live your life. Please do the same for me....Now get on with your Line of how <BR>"affairs are so great for your marriage, and how glad you are that it happened, and how good your marriage is now." If this is the way it is for you....I'm happy.<P>Personally, I doubt if it is that way for most people..<P>DG99(H)

D99...<P>When you post on an open forum such as this and you let fly with rancid comments, I figure it's open season for all who want to challenge them.<P>Fair's fair, right?<P>And, as for knowing your life/knowing my life... I figure what we see is what we get. You've done a masterful job presenting your personality here of the grieving-wronged- -soooooo righteous Moral Man.<P>Take or leave my suggestion, it's up to you as it is for all who are presented with advice. <P>You claim to want the truth. Well, this is my opinion of your reality. Take it or no.<P>I'm saying from my experience your anger's gonna eat you up. You don't want to accept that variant of "reality"? I'm suggesting that you may be living as bad a fantasy as anyone who has been a betrayer. <P>You're gonna hurt someone someday, man. I just hope it's no one I know.

D99 - to answer your question in response to my use of the phrase "D99's endless agony": <P>I don't believe, and never have, that anyone should 'be over' an affair within any specific timetable. Obviously, much depends on the circumstances of the affair and its discovery, as well as the personalities involved. No one here would deny that yours was a particularly difficult situation. So was K's. And so was ours. But the past can't be re-written. It *can* be learned from. It can be refused permission to poison the future. We don't have a choice about the past. We do have a choice about the future.<P>What distresses me in your case is that I haven't seen evidence of one iota of progress for you in all the months we've shared this board. You appear to be still in the initial disbelief, profound rage, and injured pride that we all feel upon learning of a spouse's betrayal. You're seemingly still at Day One (or at least, Month One). <P>Your rage slops over onto anyone who: 1. is/was a Betrayer; 2. doesn't despise all betrayers with the same zeal as you do; 3. has managed to forgive and trust a spouse who betrayed; 4. is a Betrayer who has forgiven themselves (horrors!), despite the fact that this is often an agonizing and years-long process; 5. has the audacity to try to help you by suggesting there might be another way to proceed...as this one doesn't appear to be doing much for you, or your wife, or your kids. <P>At some point, there is a need to assess the Big Picture: "Where do we go next? What kind of marriage do I *want* to have? What kind of family do I *want* for myself and my children? What kind of lessons do I want them to learn from this? What kind of LIFE do I want to have?" <P>And finally - "What do I have to do to get there? - because I am willing to do whatever it takes, including setting aside my hurt and my injured pride, to rebuild the life I want. I am willing to stop punishing my spouse for making terrible mistakes. I am willing to learn, with my spouse, what went wrong in our lives, and fix it."<P>So in my case, the answers were: "Where we go next is to get whatever help we need to get through this. What I want is *this* marriage, to *this* person, a marriage that is the best it can possibly be. I want an intact, functional, happy, 2-parent family for my kids (original parents, please ). <P>"I want my kids to learn that when life throws a pile of **** at you and knocks you down, you get back up, clean it off, and deal tenaciously with the problem until it is solved. I want my kids to learn that you don't throw in the towel when things get rough in a marriage, that it is possible to work through the most difficult situations, to forgive transgressions large and small, and to re-find true joy in life. That indeed, you can & must *create* joy in your life. I want to live my life with joy." <P>I would never dare to tell you how to run your life, D99 - *clearly* you know what's right for you - but for what it's worth to others out there who might be struggling with these questions - these answers are what worked for me.<P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by suse (edited September 26, 1999).]

D99-<BR>you know 6 months ago when I found this spot you were spouting the same vituperative poison as you are today.<P>Many have tried to offer you a helping hand via advice and my experience is you have generally hit out at them next. IMO when you post on a public forum such as this yu are asking for the others to offer comfort and advice. You accept neither. <P>You strike me as a hatefiled self-righteous person. No room for God, or love or forgiveness. Frankly, I feel sorry for you. You will most likely never know happiness or true love. And you can't love any one else when you hate yourself so much. The bible says so.<P>I will keep praying for you. God bless

Dreamer707,<BR>Vituperative ??? That is a very big word....Poison???? That is a very simple word. Spouting??? That sounds like a fountain to me.....Maybe one giving out <BR>Truth....<P>Remember this, before you get all "aroused" in many ways over me....I did NOT call anyone a creep. What was the guy's name who did?? I don't think you or others here recall..but you do remember me and my name....sad my friend.....sad...."when you HATE YOURSELF SO MUCH"??? Where did you get that??? My friend you know nothing about me..I know nothing about you..what have I said about you, that has no basis in Truth? Nothing is the answer...your leap beyond logic to name calling is breath taking....but take heart..you will be wrapped in the cloth of the brethren here,,who condemn only those, who don't agree with them..this is supposed to be a place for people who are trying to survive betrayal. (granted this is the "Marrige Builders Forum)....<BR> Mostly it seems like a forum for born again betrayers/infidels to expound on how good they are..and how much their infidelity has Enriched their marriage....I disagree...Infidelity is the most harmful act anyone can bring into a marriage...<P>Read the words..then judge my friend. I don't know you..and even if someone has told me that you are a hateful, dishonest, lover of indecent acts...I would not believe them..as there is no proof..think about it.<P><BR>I believe your mom must have told you..that you should not jump on the most popular bandwagon going around..make up your own mind..in this anonymous forum..there are NO points for going along with the "stars" here...please remember that.<P>Good Luck,<BR>Thanks for your Love,Caring, and Christian understanding.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Disgrace99d (edited September 27, 1999).]

Howdy,<P>I guess I probably should "tell my story" as it seems everybody is making their own assumptions about me - most of them wrong.<P>I am female and live by a couple of very simple philosophies: "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you," and "Do unto yourself as you do unto others." Basically, always treat others as good as you'd like to be treated, and always treat yourself as good as you treat others. So you I end up treating everybody - including myself - pretty good. I think it's a pretty fair way to live life. <P>I have been married for 7.5 years. We fell in love at first sight - I know it sounds cheesy, but it's true, and were married very shortly after. Everything was great for approx. 5 years - and then he began acting oddly. Unknown to me he was suffering a massive financial crisis and was trying to hide it from me so as not to worry me. I do have my own work, which would have sufficed to at the very least pay the bills, but wouldn't have kept us in the lucrative lifestyle we were accustomed to. My H then decided to committ a series of white-collar crimes, during which time he was unfaithful with a very young and insecure woman he met at a friend's bachelor party (I met her and felt sorry for her, as she was deceived as much as I - she had no idea I even existed, or what he was doing, or even who he really was). H was a VERY changed man for about a year - I didn't even recognize him, barely saw him (he was always away on "business trips"), and I KNEW something - EVERYTHING - was very wrong. I strongly suspected that there were problems with his finances, and I was almost certain he was cheating on me - H is an EXCEPTIONALLY bad liar, but I never had any solid proof (he was at least careful to hide evidence). H eventually got caught, and I found out from the police about ALL his activities - about 16 months now since then. H was in jail for 12 of those 16 months.<P>Did I divorce my H? NO. Do I hate my H? NO. Do I throw the subject in my H's face, or even remind him of it? NO. In fact, after some very intense talks, and slowly having increased contact with each other after he was released, we regained trust and respect for each other that we had forgotten to show one another for a long time. I don't hate my H as he is now - in fact I love, trust, and respect him. I was initially very angry with my H for everything he did, but I never acted vengefully or trashed him - in fact I did my best to help him through his crisis and to crawl out of the hole he'd dug himself into. I bear him no resentment now - he isn't the same person today. However I have no respect for the creep he CHOSE to become before, and neither does he. <P>Your SO may not be a creep now - but they may have been before. So don't think that the appellation sticks with you forever - after all, each and every one of us has told a lie at one point or another in our lives ("Why yes, that dress DOES look good on you," or "No, I didn't eat the last chocolate-chip cookie."), does that make us all liars forever? No, I believe that people are capable of change - downward, sideways, and upward. One pattern of behaviour does not pidgeon-hole a person as something forever - but their current behaviour can label them. If you are a betrayer now, or were a betrayer and cannot accept that you are at fault for you own behaviour (and that it was nobody else's fault that you betrayed), then you are a creep IMHO. It is your own behaviour that has labelled you, not me. Don't shoot the messenger for speaking the truth.<P>I am not angry or resentful with the things that are going on in my life. I have accepted what has happened and we have moved on, better than ever in fact - more honest, open, trusting, and loving. I know that there are those that will question this but this is the honest truth.<P>My post was angry, and not at what has happened in my life, but at those who are currently destroying their own lives, and the lives of those around them. As one who has seen her life and the life of those I love most disintegrate in the most painful of ways, I cannot understand why anybody would ever willingly subject themselves or anybody else to such an agony. I am angry at those so selfish not to see the destruction their selfish acts will wreak, angry at those who will not admit to their fault - for without honest acceptance of their own actions how can they ever move on in life? I firmly believe if you do not take responsibility for your actions you will constantly walk around in a state of self-deceit, and never be cured of whatever might have caused you trouble. <P>I want those that have betrayed to recognize their fault, to accept it without trying to lay blame on anybody else (after all, nobody held a gun to your head), and only from there can you heal and move on with a life that involves your SO. I want those who are betraying (betrayers, OP) to look at themselves in the mirror and think - WHY AM I DOING THIS?

D99-<P>My "leap of logic" happened only in your mind. I never called you a name. <P>I do not know you, but I do know the things you put on this board both now and in the past and your messages are filled with poison. You don't remember me because before you left the forum I was a very small voice. One you probably didn't notice. Your signature style of writing,now and then, shows no change. I was surprised that your attack was so long in coming. <P>I expected it. You usually attack anyone who offers you any comment that doesn't reflect your own thoughts. I will try to refrain from using "big words" with you. I am reasonably sure that most people who post here can understand my analogy without your breakdown. And you do spout poison,IMHO. <P>I continue to pray for you to heal. For you to find peace and forgiveness.<P>God bless

To All (especially Suse, DMac and Dreamer):<P>Why give D99 a platform? He's not going to listen to you now. He hasn't listened EVER. We all have to learn how to deal with this in our own way. If D99 wants to be bitter, let him. He's only hurting his OWN life.<P>Me, I prefer to focus on the good stuff. Petunia and I are only 6 months into recovery, but I feel better about us EVERY day. Suse, you were right, there's no time table. It may take D99 years to realize what's been going on. Let him take it at his own pace. Be there to support the targets of his venom, but turn a deaf ear to him. It's gettin' ya nothing but frustration.<P>----------<P>Elixir:<P>Thanks for sharing your story. I guessed that your H had cheated, but the criminal activity and the financial situation make it ALOT harder to handle the whole thing. Sounds to me like you've approached your marriage with the right attitude.<P>I like your philosophy of "Do unto others . . ." It's a very GODLY way to live. I agree with you that betrayers, while they are betraying, are not acting in accordance with that philosophy. Everything you have said is very true. However, I would like to again state that I have met VERY few betrayers here at the MB Forums that I would call "creeps." Most of them are very intent on trying to get past their mistakes. Quite simply, they didn't think straight when they betrayed. They acted "creepy," but are now sincerely trying to rectify the situation.<P>I'm glad you came here. Hopefully, we can help you put your H's betrayal in perspective. While none of us are "glad" that our spouse had an affair, many of us recognize that it's not the end of the world. We CAN go on with life. We CAN learn to love and trust our spouse again. We simply have to decide to DO it. It doesn't happen right away. I've been working at it for 6 months, and I still have days where I wonder why I try. I still have days when I wonder what my W is doing and who she's with and whether she may be cheating again. However, I have learned that I can get past those days by showing her love and affection, and by trying to be trusting, and by adhering to the MarriageBuilders policy of Honesty.<P>It CAN be good again, but it takes time, effort, and an enormous amount of love. Letting go of the anger is the first big step. It won't be easy, but you can do it. Do you want to be here 11 months from now with the same bitterness that DG99 seems to have? I don't. I want to have a good marriage. <P>Good luck with your recovery.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

It was such a nice bulletin board.<P>Oh well, back to the Dilbert site.<BR>

Elixir:<BR>Those of us who are remorseful at first are probably sorry we got caught-then those of us who continue to be sorry and admit our faults stay on this site for emotional help and try to better ourselves first before we can be of any help to anyone else. I'm here because i know i f----- up and got caught. i had to make a decision, keep on the paath i was, or do what i knew was right, admit i had an addiction, get professional help and change myself first. the best thing you could do was post your thoughts (rage) here and get some feedback. get it all out, the probably 20 years or anger you have built up inside, look at yourself first, change yourself with Gods help and direction, then try to help other people. thanks for posting

Elixir,<BR>Sounds to me as though you have a real good handle on rebuilding your marriage and are on your way. Apparently you have had many discussions with your H about what happened, understand the dynamics of what was going on and have decided to regroup and move on. Not an easy job, is it?<BR>However, like most of us, there are times when you look at the person you love or hear a story about some other couple and still wonder,,how? And why? <BR>My H and I are 19 months into the recovery of our marriage. Sometimes, in the quiet of the night while he is sleeping, I look over at him lying next to me. This face that, after 30 years, I know so well. Every line, crease, little nick or scar, and wonder "How? Didn't you have second thoughts, was there a moment that you thought of me, felt sad, guilty, thought I'd better get outta here? Why or why, didn't you stop yourself?"<BR> It's still hard to believe. But those are only my thoughts. I have voiced them in the past and no longer attempt to do so since there are no satisfactory answers. I know the theory of "right place, right time,,anyone could," but I have a hard time believing that. And referring to him in the past as a "creep?" I don't think I ever referred to him in such nice, acceptable terms. Mine were much worse at that time. We are also doing good now. And I no longer bring up the past daily, weekly or even monthy. Like you and your H, it's a decision that had to be made.,, split up or regroup, rebuild and move on. I'm glad to hear you and your H are rebuilding your relationship. The best of luck to you and your H,,,please, continue to post. <P>D99's,,,Nerlycrzy@aol.com,,,looking forward to hearing from you again......

DG99 & Elixir<BR>Thank You both. I couldn't have said it better myself.<BR>The truth hurts!!!

suzy Q,<P>I don't think its the truth that hurts at all. It's the lies, the deceit, the denial, the self-righteous attitudes, the inability to forgive, and so on. The truth heals, and that's why those of us who have come clean are here- in order to rebuild.

Elixir,<P>Thank you for sharing your whole story. There is very little I could possibly disagree with now we see exactly where you stand.<P>You have strong convictions and you live by them. By forgiving your H of some pretty aweful stuff you shown character in your convictions by living them out in the most difficult situation.<P>Welcome<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Elixir and others:<P>I'll agree that some betrayers are essentially "creeps" (as you describe that term); however most are not. They are simply people who fall into things they are usually too week to get out of gracefully. One thing I think you should understand is that none of this is done alone. Betrayers don't just go out looking to hurt there SO. They sometimes have help from their SO through intolerance and failure to understand and meet their most important needs. <P>My W couldn't and still can't understand why I feel my emotional needs aren't being met. She has a need for support and companionship and mutual assistance and I try to provide for all of that. I mention that I need the feeling of intimacy through sex and she could care less. It's not one of her needs. However, she feel that my needs include keeping a clean home, having my shirts ironed, feeding the pets, having nice dinners and lots of other "homey" things so she busts her butt to do all of that all the time and she thinks she's doing "good". I've told her time and time again that most of that stuff is fine, but I would rather have a great sex life and eat hotdogs. Besides I can clean a house and I can iron my own shirts too. I can't make love with out her. So when I start spending time with OW (not sexually, mind you) but just being friendly and getting those little pats on the head that make a guy feel like a "guy", then all H*** breaks loose. "How could you even think about spending time with that OW, after all I have done for you? etc... <P>Yes, their are creeps among us but they are on both ends of the spectrum. They are, as you say, the selfish ones who only think of themselves and their needs. Problem is that those selfish ones don't always betray their spouses with an affair, they sometimes lead there spouses into an affair by pushing them out of their lives and their marriages.<P>I've been married twice. The first time I was a real creep and I admit it. So was my first wife. The best thing we could have done, we did. We got as far from one another as we could.<P>My second marriage has lasted well over twenty years. No cheating or infidelity yet (if having sex is a prerequisite), but there have been other ways of moving apart and my W treats me as if I did, in fact, have an affair. She can't forgive me because she thinks I "thought" about it and that's enough. So for that reason our sex life dissapeared several years ago and she somehow feels justified in witholding affection and at the same time beleives she can demand my fidelity because, after all, we are married. I guess creeps come in all forms.<P>Maybe someone out there can shed some light and give me some insight on how to reconcile this situation. <P>By the way, this is just a one sided story, I know. My W must have a great deal of emotional turmoil causing her to behave the way she does so I am not faulting her completely. However, she can't admit that something is wrong and I can and do freely admit that I'm at the end of my rope.<P>Any opinions or advise. <P>Thanks,<BR>Flip

I've got to ask the same question - Why? <BR>Why not just get out of the relationship and go with the OP and not destroy people? Why continue to let your H/W live a lie? What about those like my H who cheats again and again and again, then when caught, well, oh yes, now he's very sorry, and wants to work on our marriage - now - yet continues to lie. I could never do that and I don't and never will understand it. I made a committment, a promise, a covenant, and although I have plenty of cause to go find someone else (my H certainly has not met my emotional needs, so why not go find an OP, an "addiction"?), I do not, nor do I have any desire to. We all make promises and we make a CHOICE to keep them or not. The "betrayers" freely choose to break promises and vows - FREELY CHOOSE. They can just as easily freely choose to not. What hurts is in making that choice, they make choices for the "betrayed". How arrogant, to choose to destroy my life or children's life. No one has that right, to choose for me, yet the "betrayers" do it every day. And then they are sorry. So very sorry when their chosen life of betrayal falls. And they take how many other people with them. Again, what complete arrogance. What total self-centeredness. Like I said, I don't and never will understand it. When I made a promise, a vow, to God and my H, I did it FREELY and with full knowledge and complete intent to keep that promise. Why do the "betrayers" not keep that same promise. Why does it mean nothing to them, except after they are caught? Those are the questions I am seeking answers to.

Briana:<BR>Has it ever occurred to you that your husband really does love you? You both took vows. I'm sure you both meant them. It's just that sometimes the needs are a lot different than first thought and expectations aren't always met. The biggest mistake I have seen people make is assuming that "we" have done "everthing" our spouses wanted and needed. Basically, what we are saying is that "we" have done everything that "we" thought our spouses wanted and needed.<P>How do you tell a spouse who is busting butt to do all the "right" things that they aren't meeting your needs? How do you tell them they are wasting there time with doing the "wrong" thing? Especially, when they are convinced that they are doing the "right" thing and have done nothing wrong. You don't.<P>So you go about your business and soon you find someone who will meet those needs, at least temporarily, and you fall into the pit. You don't realize that the only reason that the OP meets your needs is because all you do is concentrate on those needs and nothing more. Usually when you go to the OP you don't have to worry about kids, bills, hassles at work, etc., you just concentrate on getting those "important" needs met. Usually, those needs are sexual in nature. It's amazing how sex can cover up a multitude of sins. It's really hard to feel bad about yourself or anything else in the throes of passion. But then, the brief and exciting encounter is over and you are abruptly and rudely awakened to the reality of life. <P>Did you "mean" to hurt anyone? No, of course not, but you did. Will you do it again? There are two ways to go on that one. Either you will be filled with guilt or it will become exceedingly easy to do it again and again. In either case you will have long term problems. <P>It appears that we are all capable of very self destructive behavior, but one thing we really need to understand is that very few people take pleasure in hurting others. The fact is that they are not even thinking of others when they do stupid things, or they wouldn't do much of what they do.<P>Don't beat yourself up if your spouse didn't have the courage to tell you you weren't meeting his needs. Sometimes we are afraid to tell our spouses that they aren't doing a good job until it's too late. Then when we finally send them the message it is loud and clear and very hurtful. <P>Who knows, maybe we will learn from one another and do better next time. That's pretty much all we can hope for at this point.<P>Flip<P>[This message has been edited by flipper (edited September 28, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by flipper (edited September 28, 1999).]

How do you creeps do it?<BR>Well after being abused to the point where my husband was going to kill me.( I had been faithful since the begining of our marriage of 10 years). When I left I thought saving my and my three childrens lives was important. No one told me when how lonely,scared and heartbroken I would be on my own. I thought that my morals and values could keep me from being lonely, but I was wrong someone was kind and i had an affair. I regrett it deeply and if i could go back i would of stayed and died in my house than have hurt my children and my husband because of the affair. i just wanted to live and see them grow up. I realize i was wrong I was willing to forgive my husbnd for all the bruises and pain cutting deep into my soul but he was never able to forgive me and maybe I don't deserve it I am in fact the one who cheated.

Unforgiven:<P>What you went through, NO ONE should have to go through. I am VERY sorry that you had to endure years of abuse and threats to your life. Leaving that abusive relationship was probably the BEST thing you could do for yourself and your kids.<P>I maintain, however, that even your H's abusive behavior does NOT entitle you to have an affair. If the marriage was over and you were legally divorced, then no problem. I might even be persuaded to believe that even if the divorce wasn't final, if there was NO hope of rekindling the marriage, then it would be hard to fault your intimacy with another.<P>I can, however, understand how you could get swept up in the emotion of a situation where a man so different from your abusive husband showed compassion and caring for you. I do not think it excuses the affair, but it does make it easier to see how you let it happen.<P>You have my deepest sympathy for your past tribulations. I hope your life is much better now that you are out of such an abusive relationship.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

We have all sinned and fallen short, my daughter says all the time that she is a good person. I tell her I in myself am not. The heart is wicked, what a wretch I am. She says she cannot trust anyone. So true, I tell her, I cannot even trust myself. There is only one I can trust in, his name is Jesus. The Word says "do not put confidence in man, but trust in the Lord." Our righteousness is as filthy rags, the only rightness we can have is his, working in us, changing us unto his likeness. Yet we cannot claim it as our own, only his rightness. Come on people, we are all in the same boat whether we are betrayed or betrayors. We are all betrayors (if we sin at all we are guilty of it all). We have all betrayed God, but he is just to forgive us our sins. Should we not be willing to do the same. He commands us to love and tells us to forgive. Why? Because he has done this for us. Our answer is not within ourselves by ourselves, except by his grace and his righteousness we are barely saved. If we could save ourselves we would not need a risen savior. The unsaved and unrepentant do not understand or know this truth, how are they going to know unless we walk in love towards them? Let Jesus SHINE. Peace, Blessings, Love, Ginn