mimi and notso,

I'll come back to this thread later, but I have to quickly clear something up now.

"LOVING BOUNDARIES and I have recovered our marriages."

I didn't recover my marriage mimi. I have been recovering myself. It takes two to recover a marriage, and FWH still wants both of those two to be me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> . I am divorcing.

Edited to add:
"However, as we all know, PLAN B is scary and awful. Who wants to be faced with that lifestyle and that decision? Enough said...."

Due to my circumstances, Plan B was not an option. Even SH couldn't find a way for me to go to Plan B, and instead helped me with a plan to get myself and my kids through it although he thought that when Plan B became an option I would be overdue for Plan D(ivorce). He was right.

As scary and awful as Plan B can be, it is the second part of a two-part plan that is often necessary to preserve enough of your Love Bank so that rebuilding is an option. Not going to Plan B when it is time can be the thing that leads to Plan D. If Plan D is not what someone wants, then Plan B (after an excellent Plan A) is often necessary.

Btw, FWH does not want a divorce. I can understand that because I wouldn't want to get divorced from me either <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> . I couldn't have said that before I found MB, but I can say that now.

Take care notso

Hey, Not-so,

You texted your no-sex statement! Very gutsy! :-) Any news yet?

Just considering a no-sex statement for myself kind of makes me smile because I don't think I *could* get Phil to have sex with me if tore off all my clothes and did an interpretive dance in front of him! We're all unique individuals. Then I was kind of thinking, well, what if he *did* want to have sex with me and I knew he was still seeing OW? Sex - lovemaking - SF - whatever -- I'd probably be completely torn and would try to decide each situation as a unique thing.

I've been reading through this thread with heart-felt empathy for us and the different paths we all take.

It makes me sick to think of Phil having sex w/OW. I try NOT to think about it, not to imagine. I wind up vomiting. I'm not happy about the diseases he may have exposed me to. I'm not thrilled she's exposed him or that he let her expose him for that matter. And yet, if Phil approached me for sex after all of this, I think I'd probably jump at the chance, would be twisted inside during because of the conflict but I'd probably still say yes (or at least that is what I think now) For me, sex is one of the things that makes ME feel loved and it makes me feel loving as well.

WAT, RE: your question: Suppose his top EN was spending $$ such that he could drain all your life savings? If Phil needs $$ and I have $$ to give? I would give. Whatever Phil needs in terms of what I have to offer; I would give. But I'll make this distinction: Not-so has kids and I don't. Within my ability to control an outcome based on my choice, I wouldn't give Phil anything if it meant my kids would suffer from that choice.

Not-so, be strong enough in yourself to choose what you think will be right for you either way, and then be OK with yourself if you change your mind later. And then change your mind again if that's what it takes. What's important is that you are healthy physically and stay that way, you're healthy mentally and emotionally and that your kids stay healthy physically and emotionally too.

I think we each have to tailor Plan A/Plan B etc. to make a sort of Plan You-Me-We.

You have to be able to be with yourself later and be satisfied your decisions were what you believed to be the best ones for you to make at that time... Which you did by saying, I don't want to have sex with you under these circumstances. Maybe the circumstances will change again and you'll reconsider again?

You are strong and beautiful because you CHOSE for yourself and informed WS of your choice. Brava!

Sally

LB,

I had to chuckle when I read this. So true!

I stopped in to see how notso was doing and couldn't help but marvel at the different opinions, feelings and philosphys regarding the subject of SF with the infidel. It's all good you know, I mean how everyone is different.

It reminds me of the quilting bees I had to participate in as a teen. My mom, aunts and grandma had this huge wooden contraption in which you rolled the two sides of the quilt around and everyone sat around it quilting and talking.

With uncle WAT and uncle Lemon stopping in to offer their two cents even. Just like the old uncles would do on their way to the kitchen.

I never really participated in the discussions as I was too busy rolling my eyes and plotting my escape. But I would give anything to quilt and gossip and talk with those ladies now. I wonder what wisdom and history I missed. I do remember all the unique personalities, and the warmth the ladies all shared.

Anyway this thread reminds me of those times. I just think it is really cool.

Looking forward to your update notso, and really hope you are doing okay.

Ladies. Isn't this Thread Jacking??? Is it a little early into the process to discuss whether 'Not so' should be SF with WH??

Not So - Good job with the first part of exposure. It's time to spread the word a little. I know about the butterflies. It seems like just yesterday I did the same thing. In about a month it becomes more bearable.

I assume he denied, denied, denied. If he wants to back up his claims, have him display a very transparent NC.

Remember, his actions are the ultimate disrespect toward you. Time to respect yourself. I'm not big on confrontation unless really pushed, but I'm getting better at it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It's time to stand up for yourself.

Sounds like you're right on track. Get some rest. Force yourself to keep eating and stay healthy. If you can force yourself to exercise, that helps with physical well being and counteracts feelings of anxiety and depression.

Plan A, Plan A , Plan A. It's a good idea to re-read the posts often until the idea sinks in. This is going to be a marathon. Dr, Dobson says, it's a war with skirmishes, battles, manuevering and it's bloody.

SIS

Totally awesome thread, everybody. This will have to be quick, as WH is already on his way home from work to 'spend the evening with us'. So much I will have to respond to later, and I do have major venting to do.

Short synopsis on my little soap opera for those of you who have been waiting so patiently: I kept my cool through a grueling 5+ hr confrontation last night, ending shortly after 3am today. Of course he denied everything, trying to make me feel guilty for suspecting him.

Phase 1: Calm, reasonable, and logical. Very disappointed that I would think that of him. Sad when showering as he remembered all the wonderful times we had had in the shower and now never would again. And by the way, who had given me this misinformation?

Phase 2: Depressed and crying. OK, I cried, too. He wasn't drunk, but acted just like it. Wished he could just disappear, and btw please make sure my children are taken care of. I held him and loved him, petting his hair till he was almost asleep.

Phase 3: Enraged and paranoid. Instead of snoring, began becoming more and more agitated, accusing me of having someone follow him & trying to track him on his phone GPS. (I didn't do either. Why bother, when I knew where he was and with whom?) This dreadful rant lasted around 2 hours, during which time he threatened to fire all the employees in our co. for spying on him and reporting back to me, all kinds of wacko stuff. He called me all kinds of terrible names, & did everything he could to shake my calm assurance, to no avail. He began to gather enough clothes to leave for the night, then sat down and moved to...

Phase 4: Hard to categorize. Though still possessed of residual rage from III, he said he didn't want to leave or lose me. He hadn't been comfy on the couch, only lasted about 2 minutes on the floor, then came and crawled in bed with me & put his arms around me, proceeding to tell me how much he loves me and enjoys being with me for SF & non-SF stuff. I know this may stir up another flurry of opinions, but since they're all so interesting, flurry away! I willingly allowed myself to be seduced - in a protected way, of course - and fell asleep satisfied that I had held the most important position of all. (No, not that kind of position.)

As I said before, I'm heavily into conflict avoidance, but in all those attacks I never wavered in my (fully justified) conviction that he was lying. In spite of all the threats and completely insane behavior I refused to budge on that. It drove him crazy. Weaver or WAT, whichever of you made the comment about him being paranoid, you were right on. I laughed really hard when I thought of him, every time he's with her, always twitching and looking over his shoulder thinking I'm having him followed. He was nuts trying to figure out what I knew and how I knew it. One of my favorite segments was when he decided OW must have been blabbing around. I'd love to hear their next conversation! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Well, he should be here shortly, so I'm signing off for now to go put on a little makeup so I don't look like unreheated death when he arrives. He's been so nice today, very clingy & I-love-you-ey. I'll keep you posted.......

Hey there, not so! Sorry the only time you hear from me is a so-called thread-jack. I am of the opinion that everything added to a thread is interesting and valuable, and I hope you are not offended. You don't seem to be. As for the SF issue, I don't think there is a hard and fast "rule" ~ I think it depends on each individual and each sitch. I started thinking about this thread today, while I was working out, and I realized that the "message" of the A, has a lot to do with how Plan A should go.

For instance, as I understand with Mimi, whom I think is wonderful BTW, she might have not had much SF with her H pre-A. I did, and I felt/feel confident that my H very much enjoyed it ~ fulfilled him.

Unfortunately, the "message" of the A (as described by Carder in "Torn Assunder") is sometimes not obvious until AFTER recovery, or D. I know my H and I are just now, 1 year into recovery, discovering that message. Does that make sense? Until you know for sure, you will have to do as you did last night ~ kinda go with your "gut" instinct.

I love the way you are handling your WH. You remind me of a post I did about a year ago, regarding "flying by the instrument panel." I think that is why I read your post today, because of the old title of your thread. The post I wrote was about how pilots cannot depend on their regular senses when they fly ~ they have to trust their instrument panel to get them where they need to go safely. That is what I did during my separation from my FWH. All my instincts screamed for me to do stuff, but I read here to do almost the opposite. It is very hard to do. Feels all wrong, no instant gratification. But stay your course, sweetie. No matter what happens with your WH, I believe you will be just fine. Keep your sense of humor, that's for sure! It will get you through much of this cra, er, stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Spidey

I'm sorry to have thread-jacked yesterday.

I was responding to NOT SO's text message to her WH about SF.

BTW, her WH sounds a lot like mine, a cake-eater.

Plus, sounds like she shares my experience with SF. This is all so scripted.

That special time with her WH, being seduced by him, etc., will carry her through some difficult times and he is making note of those times....

ENOUGH SAID. I'm finished about this for now. NOT SO is making my point herself!!

Come on, guys, it's not thread-jacking - it's sharing a lot of bonus information to give me a wide spectrum of available choices, and every word is appreciated. WH will be home today for more family time, though he is still asleep right now (last night's family time ran till 2am).

He has not contacte OW in several days now & she is becoming distraught. That has been very typical of their 'relationship' since he started returning some of his affection to me: he will alternately spend enough time with her that he feels guilty and then ignore her for a while, throw her a few more crumbs, then ignore her again. At least even though he's putting me thru perdition with his actions, he has been consistent in his attentions to me & the family for 2 mo now.

In case anyone needs a good chuckle, I'll share the story of my only contact with OW. After hiring her on, WH had said repeatedly that nothing was going on, so I sent her a very sweet text message reading something like this: "K****, I wanted to invite you to have lunch with me one of the days this week. Tues would be good for me. I don't want to talk about WH - he told me what happened between you, said he was sorry, I forgave him, and we have moved forward from there. Maybe we can never be friends, but if you're going to work for us, I'd like us to at least be acquaintances that are comfortable speaking to each other."

Oh, I was sincere enough in what I wrote, and would have readily had lunch with her had she indicated a desire to do so, but oddly enough all she did was call WH to complain. He called me, quite irate, but couldn't win against my niceness. With what I now know, a note like that must have given her a real start, LOL.

Apparently this is OW's first time as an OW, and I keep wondering how much of this garbage she will take from him before she gives up, hopefully without burying a hatchet in his skull. I'm amazed she's lasted this long. I've been meaning to ask if there are any FWS's that could comment. Of course no one is psychic, & everyone is different, but is that likely a good indicator that OW & WH are starting to fray, or does it probably mean nothing?

Well, time to go fix brunch & get ready for a full day of bonding, but I'll try and peek in later even if there's not time to post. Jack away, ladies, & Uncle WAT & Uncle Lemon, you can drop off another two cents anytime!

I think her days are numbered. Your WH does not seem to be acting like one so far gone that he will risk losing his family and business for her.

As this becomes clearer to her, she will begin to unravel even more.

Very important for you to remain the calm and collected one & continue to let any DJ's/LB's come from her.

Plus he has demonstrated that he does care what people think of him and as his embarrassment grows he will begin to see just how ridiculous this affair is.

That's my take on it anyway.

And you are doing great!

Edited to add: I LOVE the note you wrote to her asking her to meet you for lunch. I bet you just give her the shivers now. You got moxy girl!!!!

Oh come on you guys. It was great information. The thread jacking comment was tongue in cheek. Let's gang up on the WS not each other.

Not so - Conflict avoidance?? Are you kidding? Feels good to have the power of knowledge doesn't it?

I've got my wife so paranoid now, she's going into counseling voluntarily! I nearly fell over. Your silence to his inquiries will spool him up and he may even start volunteering information. You've heard the give him enough rope phrase? Just keep feeding it out.

Your SF is a pretty good start to Plan A IMHO. The debate yesterday brought up some other relevant issues, but don't get distracted from you primary goal. Reveal the A and protect your emotions

Pace yourself this is going to take some time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I think you have a really good point, mimi.

Perhaps I had relapsed into the merely intuitive way at looking at the response to infidelity - or, giving myself the benefit of the doubt - I was doing a poor job of mixing the idea of meeting ENs while also setting boundaries.

Many female BSs get a LOT of mileage out of turning up the heat in the bedroom with their WSs fully knowing he's boinking the skankylosaur on the side. Usually, the male WS claims to the 'saur that he's not getting any at home. When the OW finally learns the truth, it turns ugly fast in LaLa Land.

So, if a female BS can continue SF, protect herself, and still set boundaries, mimi is right - meet that SF EN. I think this is especially true if this EN was really lacking pre-affair.

I stand corrected on that score.

But for some BSs - who were doing a good job at this EN before the affair, maybe it would be more effective - or not as much harm - to withhold SF; defaulting to the side of full preotection and setting boundaries.

WAT

WAT:

All I can say is "ALRIGHTY THEN".

You had me really scratching my head there for awhile 'cause you were one of my primary supporters during MY PLAN A and I thought you clearly knew what I was doing. I know it was a couple of years back but not that long ago! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm having to sneak around as much as he is right now, just to be able to drop in a few lines. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm pretty sure he talked to her a little yesterday, but is still pretty much still avoiding her, temporarily of course.

One thing that happened just before the Big Rant was pretty interesting. WH was talking to DS8 about something DS8 had done wrong, when the little munchkin suddenly burst into tears and started wailing things like, "You never have time for me! You won't play games with me! You're always gone! Sometimes you don't even come home at night!" I hope those words ring in his ears day and night. So far he is spending more time with them.

The single quote that best sums up WH's mental state that night was this: "Now I hate everyone in the world because of you." I mean, I always knew everything was my fault, but even I never imagined I carried guilt on a global scope...

Thanks again to all of you for your input re SF. That situation may change, and change again, who knows? At the beginning it bothered me horribly that he might go back and forth between us, and it still does, but after having to face that my always-truthful H is lying to me it's like getting a mosquito bite when you've just been disemboweled. I think for now that protected SF and making sure he finds out when I get checked for STD's will probably be sufficient. Oh, and maybe a few PG worries & "are you sure you washed it enough?" a la Sally.

Allrighty, well I'm off to meet the day, whatever it may bring. At least since I just started my "." I know I'M not PG. Whew! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Wow, you must be a very POWERFUL, SCARY woman to be able to do that kind of thing! Isn't it funny how the WS blames us for "controlling" or "manipulating," but it is THEM that GIVES us that power! I'm not saying we as BS's ever had the power, but until the WS can take responsibility for their own reality, their own choices, they remain fogged-in. I am so impressed with your humor, and your ability to stay grounded through all this. You go, girl.

As for the kid thing, after my FWH came home, my friend was in DS12's room one day, looking at all the poster collages he has in there ~ all family pictures like Disneyland, camping, school trips, etc. And she noticed that on the Disneyland poster, DS12 had put tacks through the head of FWH in each picture. So, there was DS12 sitting next to tack-head on the California Screamin', on the tube pulled behind the boat ~ DS12 was even fishing with tack-head!

I didn't even notice this. FWH had been home about 3 months when we discovered this, and he went in and had a heart-to-heart with him. Both DS12 and DS13 had a lot of anger towards their dad for leaving. The good news, is it gets better with time. Just like with me trusting my H each day more and more, they do as well. Personally, I'm glad your DS let out some of his frustration/anger, instead of internalizing all of it. First, your WH needs to see and hear it, and second, it's not good to keep it all in.

Hang in there.

Spidey

Today went very well, as do most days we spent together. The only blip was before we left to do our errands, while he was talking to OW about official business. I started to ask a question about a phone call he had just asked me to make, & he yelled at me to just do what he told me to. I calmly replied that there was no need to talk to me that way, and life went on, but that was the first time he has ever done that in front of OW. Usually he is sickenly polite, so it was lovely to see the mask slip in front of 'her'.

The Book finally came, but my mom forgot it over at her house. Watch for her to post later as a FWW under some phonetic spelling of 'thunder and lightning'. Not only is she a FWW, but now a BAMOABS - Ballistically Angry Mother Of A Betrayed Spouse. Please remember the book tomorrow, Mom.

DS4 has been barfing today, and so has Gramps, and now that I think of it, so has WH, although he has felt better since.

This introduction is getting briefer and briefer, as each time my message disappears into Outer Ozonia, somewhere near the Bermuda Triangle, every time I try to actually send it to the thread. I shoulda stuck with clay tablets strapped to the backs of my pet dinosaurs, instead of this modern nonsense that travels so fast but doesn't get anywhere!! Let me introduce myself as ol' Neak's first landlord. I gave her her very first lodgings--one womb, no view, utilities included. She's really so_very_you_neak, no matter what SHE says but I've given up being wordy until I find I can actually post a response. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> After 36 hrs. of wakefulness with a 1-hr nap I don't have a lot of "thndr" left and precious little "litng" either.

WH is out trying to complete an assignment, and made sure I knew that if successful, he would have to have OW's help to carry it out, and saying that he didn't want me to think that they would be stopping by the side of the road to have sex. ("What with all those awful things you were thinking before...") I solemnly agreed with him, knowing that of course they would not be stopping by the side of the road to have sex - they would just go to her warm, comfortable house if they wanted to do something. Duh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

VP of co. will be gone for several days, but plans to begin his investigation next week, at the close of which he will talk to WH. VP has evidence in his possession which leaves WH busted dead to rights, and although he will not reveal it to WH, it will definitely protect him from the temptation to believe any sincere denials. It's so hard still for me to grasp that my dear H is now a shameless liar, but the circle of exposure widens.

I wish there were some way for her to find out what the true state of affairs (LOL) is between WH and me. I think she probably thinks she has him to herself, and would be irate if she found out she was sharing. Kind of like me. Hopefully some of the exposure at her old job will trickle back, we'll see. I could always send her a video <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> How would WH explain that one? "OW, it's not how it looks!" LOLOLOL

Does your daughter get this power from you ma'am? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

write up your post in MSword or other and copy it in. I feel your pain.

"Now I hate everyone in the world because of you." I mean, I always knew everything was my fault, but even I never imagined I carried guilt on a global scope...

Wow! You got there quicker than I did. Everything is my fault too. We're going to have to share some of the blame. I hope there's enough to go around. My wife thinks I'm telling everyone in the world. She's embarassed to have an affair with OM19.... But I thought it was true love!??

Sounds like WH's world is about to be rocked. Prepare for crying.

This sitch is VERY common involving male WSs. The OWs believe the lies that they're hearing about how they can't get any at home.

But please do not fall victim to the temptation to try to get OW to believe this. The info is much more effective when they discover it own their own thru some slip up of the WS.

Be patient - they will get on each other's nerves soon enough. They don't need your help. Any "help" you provide is easily turned around by them onto you as an example of why your marriage is "over." Never underestimate the ability of infidels to rationalize any overt act by a BS (or anybody else not in their LaLa Land) as evidence of "evil."

WAT