Mimi,

Please don't tell me what to do. I'll voice my thoughts, opinions and ideas as I see fit.

"neak is perfectly capable of designing her very own Plan A, complete with some 180's if needed. She is also capable of filtering out ideas and suggestions which don't fit for her sitch.

Brainstorming is a good thing in my opinion, and tailoring plan A to fit your own unique sitch is necessary.

Maybe I shouldn't have called it a 180, maybe I should have just called it pulling back a little.

Would that have met with your approval, Mimi?

Methinks Achilles IS a heel, and his feet aren't his weak point!!! Let me say here, just for the record, that in all this time I have not said even one itsy-bitsy, dinkiest word to the alien about this situation. That would explain the pressure on the old eardrums. I have been polite always, even though being "polite" has meant that I've often hardly said anything to him at all during those brief times our paths have crossed. I've been so (stiffly) polite I was afraid someone would think I had rigor mortis, haul me off and bury me. So it's true there hasn't been a lot of casual laughter and idle chit-chat going on between the Mother and the Mother Ship, but given my close relationship with my daughter, my at-least-passable command of vocabulary and language (thanks to my English teacher parents), and my Portuguese temper, I think I've done quite well in the restraint department...and I'd pat myself on my own back for keeping my yap shut to him all this time, if I weren't so old and inflexible I can't reach back there. Maybe I could pat HIM on the back instead. Down low. With a stick. And yes, you_neak, I DO feel better!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

WEAVER:

OOPS! I'm sorry. I'm certainly not trying to tell you what to do. I don't need for you to meet my approval at all! Why in the world would you think that I need for you to meet my approval?

I really firmly believe in trying to follow the MB System and not to use our intuition. If you see me going off on my own tangent, please feel free to tell me. I don't care. I don't know you and you don't know me really.

I was posting quickly while working today and confessed to do not reading clearly.

Really, I'm going to be an acknowledged MB Conflict Avoider!

I have been through too much in my personal life to have a beef with anyone on here about anything.

OUCH! OUCH OUCH!

I have nothing invested in telling anyone here what to do. My words may have come out wrong. I'm sorry. I was really just trying to be helpful.

No offense specifically to you, Weaver. I don't even know you and probably will never know you or get a chance to meet you.

I'm out of here. I can't take getting my feelings hurt on this site.....

Whew!!

Now you've confused me.

A few posts back you were dissing Plan A in favor of a good [censored] whooping.

Now you're describing [censored] kissing as your interaction with the WS.

May I ask you be the Mom I bet you are and communicate to the WS that you do NOT approve of his behavior and he is just about to lose your daughter. Play nice-nice with him is just about the worst thing you can do.

WAT

Well, you just dropped MY jaw. I had asked Mom essentially not to rock the boat, and she has been trying hard to respect my wishes, but apparently that was the wrong instinct. Either way, poor Mom has had a hard time with this, since as a FWW herself she has more sympathy for the situation than someone who hasn't been there, but in her case things did not drag on like this & it's been hard for her to just sit and watch when it was her own DD32 melting away.

Maybe unmuzzling her will work for the best, along with everything else that's in process.

Also, Mimi & Weaver, thank you both for your input. Even when you don't agree with each other, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I still always find very helpful insights from both of you. Ultimately I am the one who decides, and I love getting different points of view, even opposite points of view, because then I have to really think about it. Got to take the car to the shop - I'll check in later.

'neak,

I'm just dropping in - I read your thread a few times - nothing really to add except to say that your Mom is a riot!

I love the way she writes! Yeah, I know that any Mom can be annoying from time to time - when she gets too much into controlling the outcome for her little babes - but all the same, I think you have a fine one!

-AD

It has been my experience (painful) that it is much easier to control my temper when I don't let it get started, rather than trying to reign it in once it gets going. My daughter did not want me going off like a rogue rocket, and in deference to her wishes, I have stayed out of any direct involvement with The Wanderer. If I were kissing anybody's nether regions, it would seem to me to be hers, not his. Not that that's any more appetizing, necessarily...
They live in my house. I could kick him out any day I wanted to do so, and make it stick. I am seldom at a loss for words. I could make verbal mincemeat of him, saute the fragments and serve them up with relish. I could lower the boom on him in other areas, too, which haven't come up in the conversations here. Would any of this help my daughter accomplish her goal of reconciliation and restoration? Or would it just make me feel temporarily relieved for having shot off my mouth? If she changed her mind and invited me to jump into the fray, there's certainly plenty that could be said, but until then she's calling the shots.
He knows he's in deep cagada with me. Why else would he scuttle around the house trying to unobtrusive when I'm over, or be so deeply-engrossed in the computer he only occasionally acknowledges my presence. Let him wonder what I'm going to say to him, and when. If you guys are right, according to previous posts, what the paranoid doofi in these situations IMAGINE is going on is often worse than what is actually coming.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm not sparing him anything. Let him sweat. He has chickens. In their own good time, they will all come home to roost. I'll be there to watch, with my lawn chair and a bag of popcorn. In a purely Christian fashion, of course. That should go without saying. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, AD, LOL. Mom is a riot all the time, no question, and believe me, I'm glad she's in my corner on this one. And as far as controlling the outcome, I'm sure she would if she could, in fact, right now she is over there muttering something about WH sitting on a streetcorner begging for pennies with a cup if she had anything to say about it. Like I said, I'm glad she's on my side. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In case I didn't make it clear enough in my post to WAT, Mom, you are free to write to him when you feel the timing is right. Let me know when tho, so I can stand back as you aim the rocket launcher. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Now I really am going to the repair shop!

The Divorce-Busting 180 list seems to be quite controvertial. I am of the opinion, though, that information is helpful to make decisions, and it never hurts to bring something up. Is this list the end-all, cure-all? No, just a tool that can be used. I tend to think this list is more helpful the the BS that is STUCK in the desperate/clingy stage, which not_so doesn't seem to be, but you have good points, Weaver.



Of course, this is not Plan A, either. I found the list, so here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting, get busy, do things, church, sports, tan,
15. When home with your spouse, be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you’ve had an awakening
and as far as you’re concerned, you’re going to move on with your life.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold, wait to see if spouse notices.
19. No matter what you’re feeling TODAY, only show spouse happiness.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk.
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on other parts of your life).
28. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed
much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of
what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives
because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

I do think, not_so, that you are on the right track in attempting to understand the WHY of the A. As Dr. Harley says in his book "His Needs, Her Needs," you can diligently meet 4 out of your spouses top 5 needs ~ and your M will still be vulnerable. That being said, it does seem that your M has been out of "balance" for some time now.

Does your WH have any clue as to YOUR top 5 EN's? Does he make the effort to meet these needs regularly? If he ends the A, and begins NC, are you going to require a more equal balance in the M?

So, what do you think his top EN was that you weren't meeting (not saying this A is your fault, please don't misinterpret what I am asking. I understand the "why" of you not meeting the need, you have been very busy! It is aweful that these critical times are when many spouses become wayward, they just check out on the partner, the M; unfortunately, it is common)? Was it attention? Or domestic support? Conversation? SF?

And I agree with WAT ~ he should have to bear the natural consequences of his actions, and that is going to be judgement from other people. My H's OW was my Former Best Friend (FBF). I exposed to our small community, and she dropped my H like a hot potato! She was embarrassed and ashamed. It did make me the "villain" for a short time, I was the hot topic of their conversation for a while, but I layed low and kept quiet and they soon ran out of things to complain about. I agree with WAT, if the final exposure doesn't cause any more momentum in the ending of the A, I would consider Plan B. You have done a great Plan A, and I agree that his defiance will be short-lived. Sounds like he's pretty hooked on YOU, sister!

Spidey

Spidey, WAT and Mimi,

I wasn't thinking of "that" list. I never read her book. I took 180's to mean a 180 degree shift in behavior.

I see the confusion now.

If she were meeting all his needs before (and he still stepped outside of the marriage) than pulling away from him somewhat and letting him wonder about where her head is would be a 180 to my way of thinking.

It also would fit into a Plan A if this were what was needed, I think.

Good to at least explore it though, I agree.

Mimi,

I am so sorry about the way I responded to you. I opened a thread for my apology in case you didn't read here again right away.

'neak,

I do think you have your head on straight and are doing a very good job keeping it all together. Much better than I would be doing in your shoes for sure.

Ohhhhhhhh! I understand what you were meaning.


Sometimes it is not meeting ALL the needs, but the most important 5. I'm not saying she wasn't doing that. Just throwing out stuff I've learned (like the way I am talking about her like she isn't even here? And this is her thread!). The biggest mistake I personally made in need meeting, was the most common mistake ~ so common that most people have learned it already. I met the needs for my H, that were the most important to ME.

Not on purpose, but I think it is human nature to do that. Especially before reading about ENs, because I didn't even understand that there were really "needs" to be met ~ other than the obvious (to me) SF.

Harley does say that occassionally, A's happen in healthy M's. Although, according to thunder&lightening, the M was out of balance, with him being catered to, and her doing all the work. Now is a good time to try and get clear on what changes could be made in the rebuilt M to make it healthier, happier, stronger, and not vulnerable to an A.

No easy, small task. 1 year into recovery, and I am still figuring all this stuff out.

Hang in there, not_so. I hope your car appointment was successful, and that you got to leave with some of your $$$ left.

Spidey

No success in the car appt. When it finally came down to it, I couldn't find the keys. Typical! (Slaps forehead.)

While taking the responsibility that needs to be taken, I don't blame myself overmuch for this. Yes, there was a short period of time where he felt the need for sympathy & understanding, and he didn't get it from me. Other than that, I think that his needs overall were being met well. If we are successful in rebuilding, there will certainly be changes to move this to a more balanced relationship, tho I'm not sure how to go about it and right now it doesn't really matter anyway because he doesn't care while he is involved with OW. (Deep breath. Whew!)

It doesn't feel like I'm doing very well, so I will have to take your words for it. Yes, he is very hooked on me, but he is hooked on her, too, and every time I turn around there is something new he is getting involved in with her. Since I found out she is working with him in preparation for an installation, I asked him this afternoon if I could help with the installation and thus earn a little more money for us. "Oh, probably not," he airily replied and changed the subject.

Any time he is pushed at all (this would be subtle guiding, not LB'ing bulldozering) he chooses me over her, but if he can dodge me he goes to her. (Funny story about that, I'll have to post it in a bit.) I'm putting a lot of faith in the results of the exposure, which should be ripening next week. "But that's so far away!" notso wails. "Patience," reply all of you. "Time is on your side," reminds Uncle WAT.

On some level he cares that his actions are hurting me. Yesterday there was a blatant reminder to me during a phone conversation with another company of her unwelcome presence working for us, and I barely made it off the phone without crying. When I got up and walked out of the room to cry in peace, he called me back and hugged me. Of course he had to try and make use of the occasion to convince me that they were not still having sex, but I only maintained an eloquent silence. That morning he had also been appalled to find out that I had dropped to 112 lbs, and though I did not try to explain why, I'm sure he realized he was the cause. I only smiled bravely, saying that I was doing my best to eat more.

I told him back right after d-day that this was like having someone else along on our honeymoon, because I still loved him, and was in love with him just as much as on day one. Honeymoon's over, baby, and I just wish this would end.

OK, I'm going to take a moment to try and shake the mopies, then tell you about one of my greatest moments of triumph in all this.

notso,

When exactly did you "know" of the affair and when did you start your Plan A, allowing that you didn't find MB until after that time?

In your last post it is apparent from you that he is becomming the "dreaded" fence sitter and at this time becomming more attached to OW.

These questions might already be answered in your earlier posts, but for convenience sake can you restate?

And I agree that the rest of the exposure will be a very good thing.

I also agree with WAT that your mom needs to vocalize her disapproval to WH. In a respectful way, of course. If that is possible.

Something like this perhaps

"darling son-in-law, if you value your marriage to my daughter and want to continue living in my home, then stop this nonsense at once" "I love you son-in-law, like a son but am unable to sit idly by whilst you destroy yourself, your family and my daughter" Comprende?

Well I don't know what words you could use thunder&lightening but I do agree that all family members should voice their disapproval.

Hang in there notso/'neak, just like child birth this won't last forever.

Spidey,

This hit me like a ton of bricks. We make incredible dinners, make our house beautiful, look desirable when they come home and this is how we show our love. But if great meals, a nice home and lovely wife are not their top EN's it doesn't mean squat. Especially if their top EN's are admiration and/or affection.

This is very insightful and important to note, I think.

I found out that OW was going to drive the hour+ to his work and have lunch with her, so I put on my evil genie face and called, ending up leaving a bubbly msg on his voice mail. "Hi Sweetheart, I was just thinking it would be fun if we could have lunch together. My sis can watch the kids." (Extra bubbly.) "I thought of just coming down and surprising you, but wasn't sure if you had lunch at 12 or 1. Let me know, OK?"

Just to make sure, I sent also sent a TM, then called about 10 minutes later and got through. As I repeated the above invitation there was silence on the other end, then, "You mean that message was from YOU?" Even bubblier. "Oh, well, I did send you a message, but I'm sure it hasn't gotten there this fast - they never do." (So, she DID send you a message!) More silence. "Let me call you back." Almost 20 minutes later he called me back and told me to come on down. It was so late by that time I know he had to try and try to get ahold of her, and turn her around partway there. As it was, I only got there for the last 5 min. of his lunchtime, then went and sat with him in the office and chatted for another 1/2 hour feeling very smug.

I suppose I should think suppery thoughts. Thanks for the vent.

Weaver, always glad to make a convenience for you. Basic timeline was that on or about Jan 19 he told me he was leaving. Within the next day or two he told me more about why, and what needs had not been met, and I immediately did everything I could to begin meeting them. Within a short time (a few days) I made the changes he needed, and he told me several times that I had made it very hard for him to leave, but he still planned to.

D-day was Feb 12, and I think March 13 was when he was going to break up with her but didn't. I have been getting more and more alarmed at things that seem to indicate that they are progressing, but at the same time things have been progressing at home, too, and WH/OW seem to have fairly frequent disagreements.

So everything is contradictory. There are plenty of signs that the A is in trouble, and yet they both seem to be clinging rather tenaciously, even while WH clings even tighter to me. The dreaded fence-sitter looms, though I have not by any means given up on exposure. The only thing I am sure of is that there are no easy answers. Hope this helps, if not ask for more info, k?

Nor should you go off like a rogue rocket.

Do you have any settings between nice-nice and rogue rocket?

My recommendation is that you communicAte to your son-in-law that you feel that what he is doing is tremendously disrespectful to both your daughter and to your family and that he is seriously jeopardizing his marriage.

No yelling and no sweet talk. You're a concerned Mother. If you choose not to do this, then at least stop the nice-nice.

WAT

Ah, WAT, you've done it again. I laughed so hard. I guess my BAMOABS will have to find a third setting somehow! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I KNOW! My top EN's are conversation, openess and honesty, and affection. So when I was feeling very warm and fuzzy towards my H pre-A, those are the things I gave him. Totally on auto-pilot ~ I think it is human nature to give what you want to receive.

Far and away, my H's top EN is Admiration. The OW/FBF gave this to him in SPADES. And the more he hurt me with his behavior with her, the meaner I got to him. Also human nature ~ Harley says we start off asking for what we want, if that doesn't work we start having angry outbursts to try and get what we want, and as a last resort we get downright nasty! Well, that's me! At least it was, until I educated myself about myself, and found healthy ways of asking for what I want. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, OW/FBF tells him how wonderful he is, I tell him how horrible and mean and aweful and morally bankrupt and unethical he is, and *poof!* our M was shattered.

But meeting an EN is really more than just giving, IMO. I can't just throw out compliments to H every now and again, and expect that he is going to feel true admiration from me. For me, it was learning more about my H, and working to be at a place with him that I truly DO admire him. My whole outlook about my H has changed.

Every cloud has a silver lining, and mine from the dark cloud of the A is my new, improved, better M. It "only" took 8 months of MC! And my MB buddies.

Hang in there, no_so. I hope the exposure works more for you. I know it was the best thing I did for my M ~ no matter what my H thought about it at the time. He now understands why I did everything I did.

Spidey

WAT chu tink? (I grew up in Hawaii;pidgin is my 2nd language...) I think you are somehow mistaking "polite" for "nice." They are different, especially my version of "polite" on Viagra. We are generally a very fun/funny, laughing, bonding, together kind of family. All 4 of my kids have grown up to be people I would want for my friends, even if I didn't have to. When they were little their dad was kinda hard on everybody, so a lot of the time it was the 4 of us against the world, and most of the time we tried to have a good time in the process. I have never sided with my kids just because they were "blood." If they were wrong, or out of line, I'd take an opposing position with whoever was in the right. So if WS were a sympathetic figure, by George, I'd sympathize with him. Since you_neak seems compelled to keep running the my-mother-the-FWW flag up the pole, I guess I'm going to have to stand up and salute it soon. But not tonight. I'm too tired, and besides, it's after sunset, and there is no flag-flying in the dark.
But I have digressed. The point I was starting to make is that while I am not rude to WH (it's hard to be rude to someone with whom you refuse to converse), there is a gigantic difference in my demeanor towards him now, as opposed to before. He wasa genuine, if sometimes irritating, part of the family. There was often laughing, joking, sharing stories, just having a good time between the 2 of us in particular, as well as with you_neaks one brother and sister; the other brother has never cared to spend much time with him. Now that playfulness and easy banter is reserved for the other members of his household, while he is greeted with a very reserved, solemn, "Hello," or "Goodbye"...and then only if he's lucky and I'm feeling chatty. That doesn't meet my definition of "nice-nice." And since everybody in the whole family knows that the only time I'm actually polite and proper to anyone is when I am royally urinated at them, so to speak, WH has no doubt at all of how I feel about what he's doing...all without my ever saying a word.
I'll let my daughter disclose whatever details she wants to, but at this point we anticipate the Mother of All Chickens will be coming home to roost upon WH's hapless head within the next 2 wks. If it works well, it will be a blow to the solar plexus, without having any of our fingerprints on it since we aren't the ones doing anything. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Until this imminent consequence has worked its way to a conclusion, I'm not going to actively meddle in anything. If it fails, I say heck with speed 3. Just get me the rocket launcher and turn me loose. I have "preached" for years that all a fence sitter ever gets is splinters in his butt; I have no patience with it, and there's not going to be any interminable fence sitting tolerated around here, nor much in the way of sympathetic or friendly splinter plucking for the afflicted. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Everything I ever learned in life, I learned the hard way...and I know a LOT! One of those lessons is that you can never take back what you say. If you_neak and the replicant are ever able to heal their shattered relationship, there will be enough difficulties just in that without adding the awkwardness of the aftermath of any openly-expressed hostility and rage on my part. I'm an only child. My mother is dead. My father is 90. I have 4 dear friends and 6 grandchildren, a replicant, a soon-to-be-ex daughter-in-law who remains friendly with the girls and me, and another son's POSSLQ. A little self-control on my part is a small price to pay for preserving the easy relationships we have with each other, and if the replicant is going to remain a part of this group, there can't be too many impulsively rude things on my part that I have to try and "take back" once it's over. If, after the coming crisis, the situation stagnates, cake-eating and fence-sitting becoming the order of the day, the time will come for intervention, but not quite yet from my point of view. My buns are so frosted right now I could start a pastry factory with just myself, but if I'm going to say something, I want to be sure it's the right thing and said the right way. My violet doesn't shrink. Really. I can say what I have to say when it needs to be said, with both clarity and authority. I just want to see how this surprise intervention plays out before my personal boom gets lowered, and want to take the time to aim it properly, too, for maximum impact. However extravagant my fantasies, the actual deed needs to be done in a way which accomplishes its necessary purpose, and still honors the Savior who died for my son-in-law, too. (All joking aside, at least temporarily.)
Well, in closing,and appropos of absolutely nothing this thread is about, I have an anecdote...early this spring a vent cover came off the attic and a flicker kept trying to build his nest right above my room. All that drilling was hard on a daytime sleeper and I kept chasing him off, although my husband and biologist son said nothing but shooting would accomplish it. I love flickers, though, because they're so pretty, and kept hoping he'd take the hint on his own with all the thumping I did on the walls every time I heard him in the attic. One day I heard a noise and went out on the upstairs deck and threw a can at the vent. A bird came flying out, and I immediately called my husband at work and told him he and my son had been wrong--the flicker, while not blasted into a feather duster, no longer lived in the attic. Why, you ask? I will tell you. Because a barn owl had just moved in. I've heard the pair thumping around up there for weeks now, and while I was typing this out I have heard, for the first time, the fledglings making baby-owl noises while being fed. Fortunately I sleep with fans on for white noise and once I turn them on I won't hear all the banquet revelry, but still, for a kid who grew up in apartments in Honolulu, this much wildlife right over my head is kind of a change of pace. It would be more fun if I could see them, but even a city girl like me knows better than to stick my head in the hole for a peek. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> The sandman calleth. I answereth forthwith. The thunder is silent; my lightning has bolted, and left me a gentle zephyr of breeze that can barely blow across the room where I intend to promptly slip into somethng a little more comfortable...a coma. tl P.S. My blasted emoticons won't emote. Anybody know what I'm doing wrong? I get javascript void (0) for most of them, with a few posting the actual graemlin. They're cute and fun to use, except when they don't work!!!!!