Well, WAT and Mimi, you both managed to answer a question that was not asked, while managing to avoid the one question I did put out. That would be--is overconfidence in a FWS normal in this early stage of recovery? As for the rest, my daughter will not have to choose between her husband and me. As helpful as all of you have been, you still know only a small portion of the story. There are factors at play here which have never been discussed in this thread, but which have in the past influenced, influence now, and will continue to influence in the future, how I relate to my SIL. My daughter has full knowledge of the things he and I will be discussing at some point. If she doesn't disagree, that's good enough for me. Her violet doesn't shrink either. She's perfectly capable of telling me to stop, and the fact that I haven't gone on this thread and played Paul Harvey with "The Rest of the Story" is an indication that I honor her wishes and listen to what she says. I still would appreciate an answer, though, to the question that I actually have. Anybody? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

As someone who admiteddly is clueless about the ways of "marriage building" principles and could never hold a candle to the wisdom of someone like Mimi here, I will try and answer YOUR QUESTION.

I think that all you have to do is read this message board, and you will see that BY FAR, the majority of recoveries (both long term and short term) are littered with FALSE recovery episodes. This isn't even an opinion that can be disputed. Read the boards, follow the individual posters stories. It is all here in black and white. I suspect your Wayward SIL in his mind believes that he would never cheat again OR contact the OW in a setback, but history shows us that this is probably not the case. There will be setbacks along the way, and unfortunately probably a false recovery or two or three. I only had one false recovery in my marriage, but that was the last false recovery that I would allow. Your D may be different.

Your Wayward SIL is probably just like a dieter who starts a hard core diet. He is full of confidence now and good intentions, but only the test of time will tell. My opinion is that he is probably over confident, but it is probably not something you can fault him for. Let it play out. This board will tell you what to expect.

I would echo what others say in that I would let your D "figure" this out for herself. You want to protect her, but in the end, she has to live with the consequences of her choices (whether they are good or bad).

I spent a lot of time reading this board and it is all so clear to me. Read the stories from 2001 and follow the history of these posters. You can know what to expect from there.

I have no doubt there are very serious other issues that have not been revealed on this board regarding your D situation, but that is not uncommon. Noone knows the whole story, and that goes for ALL of US.

I hope that it is ok that I offered an opinion, even if I don't have the MB credentials that the other aforementioned posters do.

LM

Not having been a WS nor having a front row seat to one that made it to recovery, I cannot answer.

But for the sincerely understanding and learned FWS, I can imagine the self confidence being strong and justifiably so - once you truly can look back at the dark side - how can you not be confident you won't do that again?

But until they truly get there, any amount of confidence can vanish at a moment's notice, as LM has described.

WAT

MOTHER OF NOT SO:

LM has given a good answer to your question.

My question is why do you need to know this? Are you planning on intervening to make sure this doesn't happen?

Did you hear what I said about being there for your daughter? She needs you to be there to catch her if and when she falls not to try to fix or to do anything.

It doesn't matter what you know regardless of what it is. This is her life now. Let her lead it. Don't let her have to tell you. be sensitive to her like you were when she couldn't talk. Back off......

I'm speaking as a daughter who had a mother who sounds just like you..... I say had a mother because she is no longer welcome in my house because of things that she did and said to my H..

Mother's Day was really nice. BAMOABS got me a beautiful dress with a cowl neck that hides my (temporary!!!!!) lack of cleavage. Sis made a bucket of chocolate dipped strawberries mingled with chunky iced brownies that are so fattening my cup size increased just from looking at them, and H got me Phantom of the Opera, which contains my favorite musical theatre pieces of all time. Oh, I must not forget to mention the watery and tepid 'hot' apple cider prepared lovingly for me by the children. Mmmm, mmmm. "Thank you, dear children. This is apple cider, all right, and wow! there is such a lot of it."

The only thing that made me mad was I fell asleep right before the end of the movie. The last thing I remember was the classic scream as the Phantom dragged Christine off to his underground lair, and I haven't had time to watch the rest today yet. I can tell already it's different from the book, so I have no idea how it ends. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I can't wait to rent that movie! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for the answer. As for the other, since my SIL personally (and spontaneously) asked for my help and advice, he'll eventually just have to decide for himself whether or not he's sorry he made the request.

My H was that confident, and we had no false recoveries. Which I guess goes back to what Mimi said, which is that it is something they will have to figure out on their own, and what could/should/would you do about it anyway?

From what I have read on the boards, all A's differ ~ both in their "message," and their intensity. My H truly thought he was "in love" with the OW, and that he didn't love me and had never loved me. The Fog, as we call it here. Come to find out, his is not a narsacistic or behavior disfunction ~ it was a classic MB case of not getting a top 5 EN met for a long time by me, and my former best friend met that particular need in spades.

Only after over 1 year in recovery, and 8 months of MC under our belts, did I realize that, though. It is all a process, a discovery of what exactly has gone wrong. And only the two in the M can figure that out. Which is why I also counseled not-so to stop communication with the OW.

As Mimi says, be a support for each of them. Be their best cheerleaders if they want their M to work. Give encouragement and love, and search your heart for forgiveness. My mother has been in a nursing home for the past 12 years (she is only 54, has dimentia, long story), so I don't have to worry about what she thinks, because she only sees her SIL with the rose-colored glasses. She just cannot remember what happened.

My aunts and uncles wanted for me what I wanted. If I wanted to rebuild my M, they supported that. If I had wanted a D, I'm sure they would have supported that, as well. The first few family get-togethers were tough, but now they are good. I know your sitch is different, since you all live together, but others in your family will look to you to see how you have responded, and probably follow in-kind.

Both of you please keep posting. I am so happy that it all seems to be going well right now. There is a "honeymoon" phase of recovery, where it is just so wonderful to be working as a team together again. If you start feeling negative feelings, even though his behavior is still showing that he wants recovery, please know it is normal.

They do not call this a rollercoaster ride for nothing! I PROMISE you that. Keep coming here and you will be guided through.

Spidey

Spidey, it's sure good to hear from you. Things are still going very well on this front. Mr. Notso arrived home from work with shaking hands and a wee bit of crankiness, but did pretty well at keeping it away from the family. He was a trifle abrupt on the phone with a friend/business associate, but recognized that it was not the right time to try and deal with that, and his friend was understanding about it.

I have been hungry again, which is lovely. Several weeks ago, just after I got done bragging about how I hadn't lost any more weight for a little while, I lost my appetite and several more rather important pounds. Today I had a couple of bowls of nutrition-enriched Cap'n Crunch for breakfast, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />, a bean burrito and ice cream for lunch, and chips and dip and ice cream for supper. It may not be the most balanced diet available (yes it is, I balance everything with ice cream), but I actually ate 3 times in the same day. I am very excited. I will be even more excited when I look down and see something besides my feet. No, I don't mean my stomach.

I have my niece and nephews right now, because Sis has blood poisoning in her foot and had to make a late-night trip to the ER at the hospital where F-BAMOABS is on duty. I went over to take her antibiotics and found her red streak much bigger and redder than before, and in addition to nearly reaching her knee as she had described, it also split in two down by her ankle, then one of those forks split again partway up her leg. So, with an increasing network of veins involved, we all voted her this year's Most Likely To Receive IV Antibiotics Before May 12. In the morning I'll see if my prophecy came true.

up for ST

Oh well, as long as I'm logged in I might as well give a quick update. I've still been on here reading quite a bit, but haven't really posted much.

The only A/recovery related news is that yesterday while he was on duty, FWH passed FOW going the other way on the road. It caused him a pang, but he came home and talked to me about it at the end of the day, so that was good.

Perhaps unrelated, but last night and this morning he was just a little cranky and on edge, up until one of our German shepherds got out on the road and killed. Fortunately one of our friends had just come over so there was someone to help me bury her. (Famous last words: "You guys go ahead and start digging. I'll just jump in the shower really quick and come help you.") As Good Friend and I were raking the last of the dirt over the top, DS8 came out, and went back in with a message for his daddy. "Mommy says it's safe to come out now...."

The children have learned a valuable lesson from all this: never chase pedestrians, even when they have dogs.

Lest I seem too callous, let me just explain that while I didn't dislike her or anything, I never had a huge bond with the big, furry cat- and chicken-killing hound. Her rabies tag arrived later this afternoon, and I would have been extremely sorrowful if we had just had her spayed. Hmmmm. Actually, by the end of this paragraph I sound even more callous than at the beginning. I'd better stop before I dig my hole any deeper. I've done enough digging for one day!

sorry about the dog, not so <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thndrnlitng here. Please don't feel bad about the dog. If it weren't for my age, my weight, and my general lack of agility, I'd be out tap dancing with joy...although after what happened to the hellhound, not necessarily in the street. Oh, yeah I can't dance either, but I'm gonna be a-celebratin' SOMEHOW!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Do I sound callous? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> This unmannered, destructive, thoroughly-annoying beast was one of 2 legacies of one of FWH's jobs. The other? OW. Couldn't do anything to her. Couldn't really do anything to him. Didn't actually do anything to the dog, either, except for the time I whacked her with a shovel for beating up the OD (other dog) FWH also brought home from work. Not really crazy about that one either, but it at least has some redeeming social value, unlike the late, unlamented HH, who (as far as I was concerned) met the canine definition of pornography. Besides, I've always rooted for the underdog, and in the fight, OD was definitely on the bottom. At any rate, after the first few times of leaping up on my chest when I came through the gate, I taught her to leave me alone when I came to visit...but every time I saw her I got micturated all over again, about her, the affair...well, you get the idea. I am glad she died instantly; didn't actually want her to suffer; wished they'd give her away, but never considered having her euthanized (actually, I considered it, but since I knew nobody would listen to me, I didn't bother suggesting it). Not one morsel of moisture my lacrimal ducts could ever produce will be offered over her. She was NOT a nice dog, really she wasn't. Now we can clean all the mud off the front door, fill in the scratch marks, replace the molding, and repaint, and nobody will be there to ruin it again. It may have another benefit, as well. Since the acquiring of the dog was associated with memories of the early A, and OW, maybe it's best that even that tenuous tie to the past be dead and buried, in this case, quite literally. It can't possibly hurt my temperament, either, not to be reminded of all this every time I drove up and that dog was waiting at the gate (until I glowered at her--then she'd go away). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I've cried buckets over pets, in my lifetime. But not this one. Nope. Whatever that makes me, I'll just have to force myself to live with it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Still, it was nice of you to express your sympathy and I'm sure Neak appreciates your kind heart. t&l

FF- thank you for your thoughtfulness. The children will miss the dog, and were saddened at her demise. She (the HH) did not irritate me particularly as a reminder of OW, but she & our other shepherd had a bad habit of killing cats, chickens, and occasionally wild birds such as pheasants, and would only do it when H was gone. I always detest digging graves, but having to bury all those torn, mangled corpses was dismaying, to say the least. The worst was having to crawl from my sickbed to dig a double chicken grave in the pouring rain. I can't help but hope the 2 dogs weeded out all the weak and slow in the neighborhood so the other dog can't catch anything more by himself. (Fingers crossed.)

It was so sweet - FWH shaved my legs for me this morning and I felt very spoiled. He told me again how sorry he is for everything he's put me through, and how thankful he is that I'm still his wife.

My peace lily bloomed the day he decided to stay home.

Thanks, Neak, for eliminating that last shred of residual guilt, that miniscule fragment of self-doubt that wondered,"Am I a bad person, to have been so hostile towards the poor, wittle doggie?" I had FORGOTTEN about the cat/bird slaughter, and now must confess that even though I posted earlier that I hadn't done anything to the dog (besides the shovel incident, to break up the dogfight she had started), that I whapped it good another time, this time with chukar segments that I had gleaned from the yard, feet and head separate from the body. (It was my thank-God-I'm-a-vegetarian moment of that particular day, holding those poor lonely little feet and legs in my hands!) I think there was another episode involving chicken fragments, too. Yup, yup. I'm really not going to miss that dog. My youngest daughter asked me how much I paid the pedestrians with the dog to walk by the house and lure HH outside the fence so the driver of the car could come over the hill at just the right moment, and make the "hit." I have no idea what she's talking about. t&l <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

THAT's what I was going to ask! "Thunder, Lightening, it's just a little bit frightening!"

Spidey

C-O-I-N-C-I-D-E-N-C-E. Keep saying it to yourself, over and over and over. Eventually it will begin to sound true. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Really. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and even somebody with as bad a run of luck as I've had for the past several years, might just possibly encounter a spontaneous, unplanned, unarranged, yet strangely-fortuitous event. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Maybe it's the turning point and more good fortune is right around the corner for me. Alternatively, maybe that was my whole quota of luck for the next decade, and that light I saw briefly at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be a train. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, he broke NC and texted her last night, all very business-like, and was a trifle mystified by the strength of my reaction. He said he had hoped that someday they might be able to be friends. (I did manage to keep my fingers from creeping slowly around his neck at that.) As we talked, there was a bit of fog wafting about, but I hope my frankness and complete openness about my feelings cleared at least some of it up. I'm still very upset, and far from done talking about it, but he has promised NC again and understands that I will be checking very closely on it.

Other than that (all progress of 1 1/2 weeks blown to bits) things are great! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Ah well, I am a patient person. Anyone who has a son like beloved DS4 is used to starting over from scratch. It shall be dealt with, never fear, but deep down I can't help but be just a trifle cranky. Pesto for supper may lift my spirits a little. (Not that I am becoming addicted to comfort food, but life never looks as grim across a bowl of al dente pesto fettucine.)

Well, he broke NC again last night. No, this is not a broken record, though it feels like it. Yes, this is a different day from the last post. You didn't just think you really scrolled down and then read the same thing over again. YET AGAIN he communicated with her last night, a new last night. (Does it show that I'm perturbed?)

I don't care one iota how brief and businesslike the conversation was, how abruptly he may have ended it, or anything else. Feeling beastly selfish, I don't even care how this may have set back recovery for either of the two of them. All I care right now is that the searing pain, the sickening fear, the cold lump of nausea, all came back in a rush. I cannot imagine how bad it would have been if I had not known this was likely to happen, and tried to brace myself emotionally for it. It was horrible beyond words, and I am very angry. At least I waited until he was awake to talk about it.

He is paying a lot more attention to me, and quickly sensed something was wrong, asking about it then and there. I was trying to be cool and wait to talk in case he successfully went back to sleep (5 hours is not enough shut-eye), but since he didn't look sleepy I went ahead and talked to him about it. For several hours we talked. We're not done yet, either. While not displaying my anger - it would have been so counterproductive - I tried to explain the depth of hurt his actions had just caused me.

And if OW takes advantage of the contact door he opened, which I fully expect her to, it will probably mean another NC letter right away, at least for a start. In the meantime, I have been restating and reaffirming my boundaries in such a way that they cannot be misunderstood. Not that they were confusing before.

In addition to apologizing and renewing promises of NC (which I will have to wait and see the actual value accrue over time), he did try to find some action oriented ways to express himself, offering to help with the housework and doing such things as mopping the kitchen floor and cooking supper. I'm still very tired and discouraged, but appreciated the effort. Maybe tomorrow will be better.

Notso,

I had some questions regarding your boundary with renewed contact, but I deleted them.

I am interested in what those who have been through this have to say. I am at a loss really.