SIHW,
That is a funny but real idea. We have until June 30th, I am sure it will get worse before it gets better.

A.M., A copy of the letter? Nah, I just took the letter. LOL. Handsome beast. Quite funny, he didn't look too handsome in ORANGE ALL CUT UP! You dumb.....________.

Danielle

Sadly, I have some experience in court.

Now, my experience is in Canada, so you definitely want to check this out for yourself...

I'm worried about him not having your address. Check with your lawyer that this won't pose a potential problem for you in the future. You could use the restraining order against OW as grounds for withholding it, but depending on how the courts work where you are this may be best done before hand.

Perhaps via reg'd letter, considering that you have proof that he and she are still in contact DESPITE the courts specific orders.

Where I am, withholding access or information from another parent without extremely solid legal grounds is veeeeeery bad. I would hate to see it used against you. You could surely defend your position, but why leave yourself in a position that needs to be defended?

dewt

I am looooosing my mind today. My son gave me a big hug and I told him that my heart smiles when he hugs me. His responce "my heart is broken because my Dad does not live here". I told him that I am sorry that Daddy doesn't live with us, but that I love him. He kept saying that Daddy lives in Maine now, and he doesn't know why he can't just come home. Then he said he won't come home because I am mad at him. I told my son that I love his Daddy but he has made bad choices and can't come home right now. I have been sick to my stomach all day since he said that. Then about two hours ago I wa son the phone with my friend and apparently it sounded like Daddy to my daughter. She got up close to the phone and said 'I talk to Daddy!' and has been saying it ever since. I am sick to my stomach and feel like throwing up. I feel like jumping out of my skin. I feel like getting in my car, filling up my tank, and driving....to somewhere. Not sure where...just driving.
I tried calling my MIL, but she didn't answer. I am not sure if she is home from work yet or not. I know you all think I am need to get over my WH, and Plan B, and move on and all this...I do, your right. You probably don't understand how I am feeling right now, but it isn't good...

A.M.
I didn't answer your question that I just noticed about firearms? OW does not have any. WH can not posess any per his bail, but his Father (whom he 'lives' with right now) ownes about 20. Adam is an avid hunter (well he was before he lost his mind).

Dewt,
He knows the town, my home phone number, and my cell phone number. I talk to his parents almost nightly. He can contact me if he needs to. I will check into it...but I think I am OK. I have a call to talk to a lawyer on the 4th of May. I am coposing a list of questions to ask.

Danielle

Dani,

Just keep reassuring your kids, and giving them all the love and affection you've got.

It is good that they can verbalize their feelings and sadness. That is a very good thing.

I would tell them also that their daddy loves them even when he is not there.

Hang in there Dani. You are going to get through this, and you are a very loving mom, so your kids will be just fine.

Tell them Daddy is sick right now, and it makes him act in funny, harmful ways that are hurting people. That you hope that he'll get better soon, and so he'll be able to come home.

I have been worried sick about my WH today. He is so out of it....the sick explanation is true. Mentally...sick. I fear his safety.
On one hand I am so much stronger now then I was 8 months ago. I know he is sick, I know I can't trust him, and I don't. I am more secure in who I am, and am capable of doing so much more.
On another hand, it feels like D Day all over again today. I feel like WH had the prime time to make his 'turn' and he choose wrong yet again. I mean what more would he need to 'wake up'? On D Day and for a time after that I would leave home and go sit next to the lake by our old house and just cry, for hours, in the middle of the night. There was this wooden bench, and I would just sit there and cry. I watched spiders make their webs....
I feel like that right now. I feel like going for a walk, and just walking, balling my eyes out. I feel like going, leaving. Driving around until I find him...and kicking his [censored]. Not physically but emotionally. If I 'could' leave I would. I can't just leave the kids....notice he did though.
I have called his parents house like 5 times today to talk to his Mom and no one ever answers. I talked to his uncle for awhile and prayed and cried with him. He told me to let Adam open up and share his feelings and try to listen. I explained my position and he respects that. He is an awesome guy and doesn't know what to think of the whole mess. He said that when he drove to work at 7 am WHs truck was in my inlaws drive way, and has been all day. He is not there though. At 9pm last night both he and the truck were gone.
I know what you are all thinking. "Plan B, if you would have just stayed in Plan B you wouldn't be so wrapped up in this' 'He isn't the man you married anymore, get over it' 'If you just 'go dark' you won't have to worry about him and you won't be depressed' Yes, I know. BUT, the fact is, I am. I feel like I have lost my own self-control.
I am just rambling now....
Danielle

I guess I should explain why I am so worried about my WH. You probably all think I am over reacting, and I may be. He is more then likely with the OW....
But....he has been talking about suicide so much lately, that it is scarring me. He has always talked about it once in a while, so everyone passes it off when he says it. I talked to one of our friends today about my worries, and he said 'Adam only says that to get attention, he wouldn't really do it, don't worry'. I am more then likely just being a worry wart, and denying the reality that he is with OW...

Yesterday when we were talking I told him that he needed to smarten up and keep his bail terms, which are NC with OW. I told him that if the authorities find out, he would end up back in jail. He responded 'I am not going back. I have been thinking about carrying around a gun in my car with me. If they pull me over, I will just end my life. I can't go back Danielle, you don't understand. I am not going back...I just can't. ' He said that if the police come to his parents house he will run off and shoot himself before they get him. I got really quiet and so did he. He then said 'Danielle, if I can have one ounce of trust in you, don't you dare tell my parents that I said that. Please, I am telling you this because I am opening up my feelings to you, and confiding in you. Don't make me regret being able to talk to you from my heart'

Okay, last time he was talking like this, I told his command. They had him go in for an eval and he smooth talked his way out of the doctors office. He was on Prozac but stopped taking it because he can't drink with it.

I know he is depressed...but I don't know what is going on. I feel like if I do tell his parents, they will 1. confront him about it, and when he says that he didn't say it, or not to worry, they will loose trust in me. 2. He will more then likely just down play it and not get the help he needs and 3. my WH will not feel like he can open up to me about his feelings and feel like he can't trust me to keep my word.
If I don't tell anyone and he does, god forbid, end up doing something, I would never live it down.

He is 99% with the OW, but I am just freaking out. Even if he IS with her right now, the fact that he is talking like that has me so worried. Plus, in the letter that OW wrote to him that I took when I was at his parents house...she wrote 'stop talking about killing yourself, no one is worth that' so I know he says it to her as well.

Danielle

You're right. You know what I'm going to say, Dani. Plan B. Plan B. Plan B.

Dani, you've got to see that you are NOT in a position to help. You are in a position to make things worse -- especially for yourself and your kids. You are emotionally involved with him, and he with you. In that sense, you are part of the problem. You can't save him.

Moreover, as I feared, he has a gun. Which means OW has a gun. We can't stop him from suicide. But what I'm concerned about is homicide. You have a crazy WH and a crazy OW. Please try to keep off their radar screens.

The only thing you can do, in my opinion, is turn this over to the authorities. The police can do something. The courts can do something. They are breaking the law by having contact. But then, I know, he's threatened to kill himself if you do that. This may or may not be a bluff. In any case, it needs evaluation by a mental health professional, not you.

The reason for the ROs etc. was not to punish WH and OW. It was that these people can do harm to each other and themselves.

You have to keep this mess from spilling onto two innocent children. That's your watch. That's something you CAN do something about. You absolutely must put the kids first.

Do protect yourself. Don't let them know where you live (though I figure it won't be too hard for them to find out). I still say, get some pepperspray. Or whatever is the more up-to-date equivalent.

And if anyone else has some better ideas, please chime in. This one is over my head.

How about call a mental health hotline, or a suicide hotline, anonymously? Explain that their behavior has been threatening to you and by extension your kids, so that you cannot get involved directly. Nonetheless you are privy to his suicide plans, and cannot sit idly by and hope nothing happens. See what they say.

When I say "Plan B," I'm not talking about saving your marriage anymore -- this is on a much bigger scale. What I mean is don't intervene in a way that is going to have them with a gun on your doorstep tonight at midnight.

Danigirl -

Here is my advice to you for what it is worth. Most people who commit suicide talk about it beforehand. It is usually not a bid for attention. Men, especially, tend to be very proficient in carrying it out. And men who drink, are even more likely to succeed.

Sometimes they not only take themselves out, but also their families. It is somewhat common.

If I were you in this situation, I would completely disappear, along with my children. This is a trainwreck about to happen.

There is NOTHING that you can do for him - believe me NOTHING. He needs professional help, which he may or may not get. I think you are a little bit codependent (like me). Please don't bet your life and the lives of your children on the belief that you can help him.

Dani number one...I found this worked with my WH when he talked about suicide....I looked at him sternly and said...How Dare you...how dare you think about yourself and no one else....how dare you think of leaving your child without a father....how do you think he will feel knowing his father wasn't happy with his life which included him and ended his life.....he would shut up quick.....then i would tell him if he continued to make suicide threats I would call the police. they all in all stopped...now the police thing might not work...but making him think of his suicides conciquences on his children...maybe it might break through even a little. And if it continues you tell him...WH I am sorry but if you continue your suicide threats I connot see you or have you visit the children it creates an unhealthy environment I do not want the children or myself exposed to.....I want our lives to be healthy...goodbye....and go dark. It may just scare him to do what he needs to do.

Dani,

The WS pull this stunt as another way to keep control and manipulate the BS and family. While his threats s/b taken seriously it should not be the only factor to control your decisions. The police and 911 told me that when a WS makes those kinds of threats even if they are not valid, to call 911 or the police. It will put the burden on the WS and let the police keep a public record of his antics. If it is real, they w/b involved, if it isn't real, they w/b involved. See either way, it does not allow the WS to maipulate just you. The police will not tolerate a WS as a family would. Their agenda is quite different and if a WS thinks he can play with the police dept, he c/b given options not to his liking. Either way it w/b out of your hands.

Think about it. Don't play his games. He is still trying to get you to enable his A. If he really needs help he will not be going to the OW. You can let the police know that you along with others like his parents are concerned, he is continuing his inappriate association with the OW and that his attitude when with her becomes dangerous to you and your family at some point later down the line. Of course the police may say you need to way until something happens but if you make the report, it w/b there on file when the next incident happens since it is more like a matter of 'when' the next incident happens rather than 'if' anything bad will happen again.

It is vital you be safe. You can always call your local Police dept and ask for their advice on how to proceed. That way you won't be considered a nuisance but c/b viewed more as a citizen trying to stay prepared. If they ask why don't you just D the WS, let the police know that you are working on it but it is taking some time to get everything worked out. Let them know that your WS' current attitude is quite foreign to you and it is making it very difficult to deal with. Let them know this is all quite new to you and has been a very stressful learning experience. You could say that before your H was a good man but he has morphed into a very stranger and scary character that you have to be careful how you handle these situations. Thank them for their help and cooperation in advance.

When the WS tells you that going to the police or calling 911 is too extreme, let him know that it is extreme and a service available to you and even him as needed. Let him know that you have been advised by the police and 911 that it is an allowed safety precaution to call them and it is their job to offer their services to protect you as a citizen. Also that when any WS subject their family to such treatment or even threatens to harm themselves or others, that agencies like 911, the police and others, need to know. Let him know that if he truly wants help, they w/b there for him also or if he makes it so others need help, the w/b there for that as well.

Hope this helps. This is what I did with the PD in my area. They were quite helpful.

take caer,
L.

Dani,

You are scaring the snot out of me. Let me explain my logic.

1. He has consistenly valued his own wants and needs above those of you or your children.

2. He has shown a willingness to do things that endanger the safety of you and your children.

3. He is showing you a willingness to take his own life in order to avoid unpleasantness.

4. He has informed you that he has the capability of taking life and keeps it conveniently situated.

So if he's willing to take his own self important life away to avoid facing the consequences of his actions, why can't you imagine that he'd do the same to you or the children?

I think you and the children are in far more danger than you want to believe. I beg you to create as much distance between him as humanly possible.

Are you willing to trade the possibility that clarity and humanity will return to him for the very real possibility that he's a danger to your children?

Add in the dangerous and unstable OW who may very well decide that your continued interference in their affair is a threat to her. She has already proven that she will take revenge against you by taking action against him. So how much worse do you think she'll retaliate against you directly?

Please, Dani, think hard about the facts of your situation instead of your hopes and emotions. I know how much you love your children and you'd never forgive yourself if one of these people harms them.

Dobie

Ditto. That's why I say: disappear from his life from now. Don't communicate with him. Don't do anything that might lead WH or OW to THINK about you.

Orchid has some good points. Nikko has some good points on the other thread. I still say you might want to check into a hotline on responsibly reporting the situation -- in a way that won't wick you back into the mess, or have you named.

Think protectively -- of your kids, not him.

Dani,

No matter what you do or don't do, if your husband decides to end his own life it is none of your doing. If you call the police and they show up at the door and he kills himself, it was by his own hand. If you don't do anything and he kills himself anyway, it is by his own hand, not yours.

This is the hardest lesson for a co-dependent person such as yourself to learn -- that your actions or reactions are your own, just at the action and reactions of others belong wholely to them. Co-dependent people blur this distinction, taking on a lot of guilt for situations they didn't create. This is not healthy.

Your husband needs help, but you are not the one who is going to lead him to it. You can't. Only he can decide to do that. Sicking his parents on him won't help either. Your husband is an emotionally troubled adult and it is hard to watch him flounder. But you have no choices where he is concerned except one: wall yourself and the children apart from this madness.

Perhaps by finally going dark your WH might see the light.

As the sibling of a bi-polar person who has attempted suicide several times, I sympathize with you completely. But there was no help for my sibling until they made a decision to get well. ((((HUGS))).

~ Snow

Thank you all for the advice.
WH is 'ok' as far as he is alive. I have not talked to him, and for now, I don't plan to do anything legally, right now. I wrote him a letter and mailed it out on Thursday. It should have gotten to his parents house on Friday or Saturday at the latest. The pictures I mailed to his grandparents got there the next day. My MIL has still not seen the letter in the mail. The only thing I can think of, is WH has his mail forwarded, or he came by and picked it out of the box before she got the mail. Thank you for all of the advice on how to deal with his death threats. I now have things to say if he suggests that again...
Danielle

Dani, start keeping track of the number of days you can maintain "NC" with this chaos.

NOT the number of days he does not contact you, but the number of days you go dark and disappear off his/their radar.

If you cannot do sequential days before you send him something, or leave him a note, or speak to him on the phone ... YOU have become the chaos-enabler in your daughter's life.

Want to be that person?

I doubt it.

Back away and do not respond to anything at all.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hey there sweetie, wondered how your holiday weekend went...it is a big drinking weekend and likely WH went on a bender...

I've been thinking aobut you and wondering how hte kiddos and you are doing...? How's school? And are you looking around at life after WH? What I mean to say is, how much are yoiu still in the M? 50%, 25%? Have you started looking around at other possible hopeful mates? That seems to be a healthy thing, when an almost Ding individual starts thinking of life outside of the M (not before you D mind you, but down the road).

It is so easy to look down the road into 'what if.."s about what will happen during recovery, what will happen when the WH comes back. But have you also looked at the "what if..."s of what will happen after D? What will Dani's life be like?

Thinking of you!

Thanks SMIH,
Last weekend was eventful, but not on because of drinking.
WH had a few drinks (4 at most) on Saturday Night with his Mom and Step-Dad. We had our case management meeting with the courts on Thursday of last week. Amazingly, things have changed, a bit. NO, for those of you who think I need to stay away from WH and put a million miles b/w us, 'things are changing' does not mean I am 'going back' to my WH. Although, I will be honest, it DOES make me happy to see him picking himself up, even if he isn't there yet, I can see his effort. He has been employed for going on 4 weeks now. Saturday night was the only time he has drank in over a month. His where-abouts are accounted for MORE, not always, but more. He still talks to OW almost daily, but the calls are now for 5 minutes or less, and the visits are turning into never. NO, this is NOT what it would take to earn his way home...but I see it as progress. He begs for more visits with the kids, and when I do bring them to visit, he is with then 100%, mentally and physically.
Someone (I am sorry but I forgot who) mentioned that my WH is a SELFISH- LITTLE BOY on the other thread. They are RIGHT ON! He is, and he may always be. He acts like a small child when he doesn't get his own way.
The four of us watched the 4-th of july fireworks together, with his parents. He asked for a hug, and I said asked our kids if they wanted to hug daddy. It broke MY heart to say that and I know it broke his. I just didn't feel 'into' the hug. I was honestly on the 'look out' for OW. I have seen here a handful of times in just the past week around town, last night was the last time. 9pm, filling up my tank, and who walks in the store but OW, says 'I hope he is f****** you, because I ain't getting any' I ignored the comment, paid and left. When WH called this morning to say goodbye to the kids, he didn't mention it, so I am not sure if he even knows.
He is at the point of begging for forgivness, saying he will do 'whatever it takes', begging for me to cancel the DV, begging for me to just be patient.
The BIG PROBLEM..in his mind, he has ended his affair. He no longer 'runs to her', 'lives with her' or 'has sex with her'. They are 'just friends'. He says he brought her to Maine, and he owes her a listening ear. She needs someone to talk to, and how is that a big deal? He doesn't want to talk R talk with her, and won't....so....yea. He knows I am not OK with that, but he doesn't seem to get why.
Honestly, I have been to busy for him, and he isn't liking that much. School ends this Friday and I have been busy finishing up things.

Thanks for thinking of me.
Danielle

Dani,

Have your read Surviving an Affair? Would your WH read it? If he feels that he has ended the A, perhaps he could learn a thing or two about what comes next.

Cat