Hi Mark,

Humor me for a moment and play a bit of "what if"...



Please consider the following -

What if.... this "friendship" really WAS innocent?

What if.... this person was more "safe" to talk to than her alcoholic husband?

What if.... this person had some background with alcoholism - himself recovered, close family members, etc?

What if.... there was no "attraction" involved? Zero. Zilch.

What if.... your W's motivation in speaking to this person was to try to IMPROVE your marriage?

What if.... that person supported your W and wanted to see your M succeed?


So -
Agreed, this person was not the best choice for your W to confide in - should have been a counselor or you (after sobering).

But it may explain her anger at you for "exposing" what was never really there.... an A.

I'm seeing it thru HER eyes.

I have stuck with my drinking H for 17 years come this Friday.

If I had reached out to someone who understood, for whatever reason, the craziness that I was/am living in due to the alcohol, I would probably be pi**ed off too if my H, newly "reformed", cut off my life-line to the "outside" world. (Again, NOT condoning her behavior - and also - NOT minimizing the alcohol effects)

She's made some comments to the affect that she's still interested in continuing the M.

If you consider the scenario above, it would lead one to conclude that she is not pi**ed off at you for exposing an A, she is disappointed at you not seeing what she really needs.... again....

Go back to the beginning.

The events of the past year are NOT what set the tone in your M, but that is what you two are insisting on concentrating on.

She mentioned your lack of "respect" as an issue for her.

I can relate - remember, I am potentially in your W's same situation, just about a year behind?

In the last two weeks or so, I have put up a hard boundry in my M.... no alcohol. None. Will not accept it and it's effects turning my life into a "unpredictable circus of pain" any longer.

H is livid - but to his credit, did hold off the drinking for much of the long weekend (not without protest).

He says he thinks it's "Bull-sh*t" that I am "treating" him this way, like I am his mother and he is a child on restriction.

I told him that I am NOT his mother, never wanted to be put in that position, and that this is ALL ABOUT HIM.

I have been very, very, VERY, patient and accomodating about the alcohol.

When left on his own, he has not been able to control it enough to keep me safe in my own home.... from him.
(BTW - this is a guy who just "has a beer or two after work" kinda guy, much like you described yourself. This is not a hard-liquor drinking, DUI getting, unemployed, wife beater.)

This is NOT about me wanting to CONTROL him.
It's about him not having RESPECT for his wife & family.

Sound familiar?

You are fighting the wrong battle.
This "OM" is not your enemy - but YOU very may well be.




Take Care,
Shelle

Shelly,

So you got married on a Friday in June of 88, we got married on the Sunday. 17 year aniversary, my wife is intentionally spending at at work.

I like your what ifs - they run through my mind all the time. The secrecy and the fact she wrote letters that included references to giving him a lap dance, etc. She says the letters were never sent but the feelings were real, so what do I make of that.

I'm not trying to say you're what if's don't hold any water. I'm just explaining my reasons for my doubts.

I do see a lot of paralells to your husband - just a few beers after work - a few too many. Your there Shelly - living it.

This morning was a big time blow out raised voices and me shwoing my 'taker' side big time. Months of pent up frustrations spewed out. I wanted her to know in no uncertain terms I was hurting and it was because of how she is behaving right now.

It wasn't good but had to be done. Yestreday I mentioned to her how I'm affraid to tell her I like something she does. She asked like what? I told her I liked the kiss goodbye when I go to work. She fired right back saying she hated it and considored it sexual abuse. This morning guess what? No kiss, I lost it. I share and get f'd for it.

She told me point blank she won't do counseling because I want to. That she wanted to until a letter came to me about it. That one thing made her not want to go, because I wanted to.


I don't know what to do at this point.

I also let it known I feel she is intentionally trying to hurt me. I did put lots of cuations around this statement that it is my feeling and whether she is or not, thats the way I see it.That she is serving revenge for what I put her through. One day she said to me 'so you feel lonely'. Today I asked her how that makes her feel. She responded partly sad, but mostly she thinks about how she was lonely and she felt I didn't care.

I'm seeing the revenge factor and I'm also realizing the hurt she went through.

Mark,
In my opinion you and your WW (and yes, I believe that you are correct, she is a WW) will get nowhere as the situation currently stands. Something needs to happen to make a change take place. It’s as if some kind of OUTSIDE catalyst is required to change the course your lives are on. What that may be I can’t say but of this I’m sure. To create the right environment for some serendipitous event to hopefully occur, you need to set the stage by changing the course your own life is on, independently, so that the current stream of events will take a different direction.

In that at this time, everything you either say or do illicits nothing but anger and hostility in her, I regretfully suggest that’s what required is you backing of totally on any but the most needful interaction with her. This includes family activities, social conversations dealing with any minutia, relationship discussions of any kind, arguments or debates of any type on any issue, and leisure time activities including even watching television together. I mean what you really need to do at this point is give her total and complete autonomy in her life, being there only for what she requests of you and nothing more.

Now understand, I’m absolutely not suggesting that you ignore her, treat her rudely, act with anything less then total civility, respect and courtesy or consideration. What I do suggest is that you provide her with no further ammunition to feed her negative feelings about you or provide her with a target for her hostility and anger.

I don’t know what your current sleeping arrangements are but if you two are sharing a room and a bed I think you need to find some place else IN YOUR HOME to bunk down. You never, ever, consider leaving your home no matter what!

I think that you must limit initiating any conversation, no make that total verbal communication with her, other then that motivated by your need to pass information for the most basic of utilitarian reasons.

If she asks you a question, you need to try to answer it as briefly as possible, with out offering any further comment then that which the question’s answer requires. Be polite and congenial while you do it but keep it brief and to the point.

If she chooses to have a confrontation regarding any issue what so ever, I think that you must do nothing other then listen to her quietly until she is completely finished saying what ever it she has to say and then just turn around and walk away. Remember, it’s impossible to have a one sided argument.

If it were me, I would not make any requirements on her person or time; none! I would ask her for no favors and ask her no questions as to where she goes, who she goes with, where she’s been or when she will be back.

I think you need to be out of the house as much as you can arrange to do so, keeping in mind that the time spent away needs to be spent constructively. If she asks where you have been, when you will return or who you are spending time with, tell her. Otherwise tell her nothing.

I think you need to make changes in your appearance and take the time to plan activities with just your children in mind, always allowing her to know where you are taking them and that she is welcome to come along as well. However, I would not press her to do so or make the invitation to her more then once.

Can you see where I’m going with this? You will need to live almost separate but parallel lives for a while. You need to be unobtrusive and undemanding of anything where she is concerned. This should provide you with two benefits. The first will be a cooling off period during which it is hoped that you can diffuse some of your wife’s hostility toward you by not being so “in her face” all the time and thus not reminding her that she wants to hate you. The second benefit, if you do it right, will provide her with visual evidence of changes you are making in your life and persona. She will see you as ready to go on with your life with or with out her and you can do this with out being disrespectful or giving her any ultimatums.

This is the way I would handle it.
Coach

Hi Mark,

Yep, we did get married on a Friday in 1988.

Not looking forward to this Friday, though.
For the first time I am dreading our anniversary.

No mention of it has been made, so maybe it will just pass without event. My H has never been one to make a "fuss" over anything, least of all me.

Maybe your W is feeling the same way - hence the "I've got to work" plan.

As for the "What If's" in my last post....
You got me with the lap dance thing.
That proves where her mind was/is at with this thing.

I was hoping it wasn't so, but sounds like it was an EA of some sort, even if only on her part - in her mind, as a response to his comforting.


She was detaching from you and starting to attach to this other person for the things he was giving her that you could not or would not while you were drinking & recovering.

Any advice from the other side of this?
From the man who also didn't see a "problem" with a beer or two?

Your original post said -

How did you know? What specifically about her "losing the love" affected you enough to stop drinking?
How far "gone" was she before you realized you MUST change?

I am at a crossroads with my H.

I feel he understands my view of the alcohol and the toll *I* feel that it has taken on our family and our marriage, but that HE does not seem to take it SERIOUSLY enough to do anything to change it.

Although, right now at this moment he is at the counselor's office for an alcohol screening & consultation.

But - I looked thru his answers this morning on the questionaire that he had to fill out, and he really minimized the reality of his drinking. Already lying at the first appointment - probably just so he can come home and say, "See - the test says that I do NOT have a problem"!!

Did you do this too?
How many attempts did you make over the years to stop?
Or was it just this one time and cold-turkey-done?

What kind of "drunk" do you see yourself as?
My H has a quick temper and a cutting tongue.
Are you like that?

Or is it the time "away" from the family that your W resented the most about your drinking?

I ask this because as I mentioned before, the events of this last year are NOT the things that got you to where you are today. You've got to dig deeper than that.

I know for me, the way I see it is that I was always pretty resilient - if he cussed me out while drinking, I could tell myself it was because he was mad at traffic or the weather, not at ME.

But in recent years, it has really taken a toll on me.
It has turned very personal and very ugly.
I've lost my resiliency...

Because I can't reconcile in my head anymore the "two" men that I live with - it's like living with Dr.Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and I never know which one is going to show up at any given time.

Take the alcohol out of the equation, and we have about a 90% chance of it being the "Good Dr." - but add alcohol, and we are almost guaranteed an appearance by Mr. Hyde.

And you guys WONDER WHY we want you to stop? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I got to a point which I can only describe as my "limit".
It's as if I was born with the capacity to only handle X amount of pain from this, and H keeps adding & adding & adding to it, even though we are now at XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX....!!

Picture this -
You are in a big plexi-glass box or shower - totally enclosed, filled with water. There is only a 2-3 inch air pocket remaining at the top for which you can take breaths from....
And your alcoholic spouse is on a ladder at the top of the box - using an eye dropper to add more water.... one drop at a time.... all the while telling you that they can't see "why you think there is a problem". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

It's really THAT painful.

And to have the one with the eye-dropper being the one person that is suppose to love us MOST in this world is just insane, almost unbearable.

Good to let her know that she is hurting you. Bad because she may not care. She sounds like she is that far "gone". I fear I am at that same level or am rapidly approaching it and I have no idea how to stop it.

I understand. This happens to me with anything I praise H for... just disappears from the lineup...

I am guilty of this as well. Wanting HIM to hurt as much as he has hurt me. It kills me though - because I do love him and it is not my nature to be cruel.

For example, he has a knee surgery coming up.
I flippantly said, "Have them call me when it's over."
He looked hurt, so I followed up with one of the hurts he has put on me -
"Well, it's the least I can do - even YOU provided delivery service for MY last procedure."

My last "procedure" was a D&C when I was 8 weeks pregnant and partially mis-carried. He dropped me off & picked me up. No husbandly support for what I was going thru, with OUR baby.

She still has a soft spot for you... there IS still some hope.

It's gonna take time... and there's no guarantee that it's gonna turn out the way you want it to.

Do you love HER enough to love her through her pain...???

No offense to "Coach", but if my H suddenly went silent and
missing, I would feel even worse about the prospects of us staying together.

Right now, for me, it's all about "testing" him.
Does he love ME enough to put up with MY crap like I did for him?

I'd rather he fight with me than to see him roll over...



Take Care,
Shelle

P.S. - H just got home from the screening. The "professional" opinion is that he is NOT an alcoholic, but they DID recommend that he stop drinking.
But he doesn't "want to".... Great.... Now what...???

Pulling out my 2 x 4..........

I had responded to you earlier in this discussion noting that I was the wife of a Recovering Alcoholic/Addict. I also have worked with alcoholics.

I think that I'm hearing a whole lot of victim/martyr behavior on your behalf Mark. Get off the pity pot! Yes, it's great that you're in Recovery for almost a year. But you were drinking for at least 17 years if you were drinking when you first married. Less than one year of Recovery isn't crap compared to 16 years of living with an alcoholic! Don't expect that just because "Mark finally decided to turn things around" that the whole world has to go his way! That's not how life is! Your wife is not obligated to accept or support your changes. She's not obligated to "reward" you for you good behavior. Nor is it about you shutting up, pouting and accepting abuse from her.

You've used alcohol in the past to escape or handle life's problems. You've got a whole lot to learn in terms of coping skills, regardless of whether or not your marriage works. That's why you need to go to AA meetings and keep going and going. Recovery isn't just about stopping drinking. It's about learning how to handle life on life's terms. That's what the 12 steps are about. That's why being consistent in attending meetings helps. Others in Recovery help support you and hold you accountable.

As someone mentioned earlier, it seems that you may often point the finger at your wife as a possible way of taking attention off yourself. That doesn't mean her choices are ok. But you've got to work your Recovery program, learn how to cope with conflict better....regardless of whether or not she stays in your life. Recovery has to come first, or there is no "person" to be available for a relationship!

Did you ever consider that while you were drinking maybe the reason you never hit rock bottom was that your wife was there holding you up???? That may also be one reason that you minimize the impact on your family. Family members learn quickly how to tiptoe around whatever they know might upset the drinker. As I noted earlier, you went through your active alcoholic years "medicated" from many of the difficulties of life. Medicated from the pain you caused others around you. Medicated from experiencing the consequences of your choices. Medicated from seeing the full impact on your children...your wife. Heck, my ex couldn't even remember many of the painful events that went on while he was drinking! That's not unusual.

In my opinion, you need to get your focus back on you and your Recovery. Regardless of what your wife is choosing to do or not do. Reiterate to her where you stand with regards to your desire to rebuild a marriage...then back off and work at finding out who Mark really is...without the crutch of alcohol in his life. She probably doesn't really know who Mark is...not Mark in Recovery. She probably doesn't know how to relate to a mature, adult Mark. He hasn't been around! And, she may end up not liking this new Mark. And, this new Mark may end up not caring for her any longer.

You're at a stand-off with your wife. Maybe it's time to try something different.

Heart, very good points. I'll get back with a more verbouse response soon.

Shelle,

Here's the view from my perspective:

I denied I had a problem. It was just a few beers after work. Well after a the few I had on the train. I honestly didn't think it was a problem and dismissed many of wife's hints as she came from a 'tea totling' family. Her father died when she was 8 and thus had no male rolemodel in her life - hey all guys drink beer.

My wife did up the harrassment earlier on. That caused me to go into hiding more. Drink even more on the train. I finished the basement and installed a refridgerator. Thats where I kept my beer. So now I could excape to basement and sneak a beer. No need to get one out of the kitchen fridge and in the sight of my wife. Life was now great. Any time she went to the store, etc it was 'Miller Time'. Drink as much as possible before she got back.

You mentioned your husband drinking in his garage - that was my basement.

I held (and still hold) a well paying professional job. I always got high marks on performance. I was a youth sports coach active in several sports. Hey an alcoholic couldn't do that.

Well all the time my drinking increased. I was able to put down a can of beer in seconds. So a quick trip to the basement allowed me to chug one down. It kept going until a 12 pack would dissapear in in an evening. Still no problem. Well I started to realize when I could no longer get up in the morning to get the kids off to school. The burden became entirely my wife's. Bills got paid later and later. I brough them to work to complete them, doing them at home would cut into my drinking time.

At this point I started to think maybe its a problem. My realization was a talk with my wife about why our intamacy was way down. Her first words were 'it's about time you noticed'. SHe talked about making bad choices in her life, one of them was me. She told me of thoughts of leaving me. That put me over the edge.

The drinking icreases gradually. I mentioned youth sports coach. Well I wasn't always sober out there. Many early morning games had coach Mark drinking a gallon of gatoraide to help nurse off my hangover. Still didn't get it.

As for your husband being less than honest in his answers to a questionaire. Me too. I spoke with my doctor about my level of drinking. I'd say about 4 or 5 a day. He'd say I should cut that back. Had I said 10-12 I'm sure he would have said something more.

I guess anyones real test is if they could take it or leave it. Could he routinely go weeks at a time without it? Does he drink only to get drunk? Alcoholism is a vague thing to describe. A person who has a glass of wine with dinner every night (and only one glass and thats the only daily consumption) drinks every day but is most likely not an alcoholic.

I would safely say I he routinely drinks to a level of intoxication he most likely is an alcoholic.

Since you feel he was less than honest on the questionaire point it out - tell him to honestly answer it. What's he affraid of. Too bad he doesn't then qualify for counseling. The first order of business was always a breath test in my case. Most people passed it, but a few were then forced to fess up to drinking. If you had to have a drink before a 6:00 PM meeting that you know you must be sober for there is definately something wrong.

I can't tell you what to hit your husband with to stop. I would recomend alanon for you. I've been told I did have an affair - woth alcohol. It took me away from my family (even though I was in the basement), I liked it too much to stop.

One thing in our defense: When we promise things we are sincere. We just don't follow thru. How many big plans did I have, ideas for the future, etc. I realy wanted to do those things. I just never followed up. Once the drinking started all abition would fly out the window. But go to alanon - they say it helps.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the candid response, I appreciate your honesty.

I do have doubts whether or not my H is a true alcoholic.
He does not seem to drink with the intention of getting "drunk".

He CAN stop when he wants to - this weekend was a good example of that. I drew the line in the sand, he threatened to go get some, but did not. (I will give him credit for that - it was 90 degrees here Saturday, and I'm sure it drove him nuts to not have a cold one all day.)

Yep - same here - there is a small fridge in the basement.
Last Saturday morning, I took the 6-pack that was in there and dumped each one out in the grass next to the patio door where it would be seen. Point made.

Yep, that happens here. DS is old enough to notice it and advises me when I return because HE is also concerned about his dad.

My H works in construction. Well-enough paying, but also very low standards of conduct. Many of the guys he is around drink alot, many have lost their drivers licenses, etc... H has been at the same job for over 12 years now and has never to my knowledge had a problem.

My H does not drink them fast, but - he has been buying the 16oz cans, which honestly are 1.5 drinks each, but he still counts each as "one beer". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Never been a problem here - he's up & out of the house at 6am. But - that early start means he gets home around 2:30pm and that gives him three hours of drinking before I get home from work.

My H has never paid a bill in his life. All the finances got dumped in my lap by "default" as soon as we were married. Never stops him from complaining about HOW the money is handled though. I offered him the checkbook many, many times - he never takes it. Just wants to complain.

Yep - same problem. For me, I am literally sickened by the "beer breath" anymore and intimacy is so unfullfilling for me that I just let it go.
It's been over six months without any intimacy or affection. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Glad to hear that those comments were enough to help you sober up. My H is the one that tells ME he made mistakes, has regrets, etc... it just feeds the need for alcohol to numb himself.

Yep - I'm sure my H said he does not drink during the week at ALL (a lie) and "only" drinks at most a 6-pack on the weekends. But - that is a 6-pack a DAY, and the 1.5 each can really equates to 9 beers in each "6-pack". Such denial.

So - he's done. He took his test, they recommended he stop drinking, but that he is NOT an alcoholic. He does not WANT to stop, so I am back to square one.

Now I wonder when he will start up again.
When will I hear the first can opening, when will I smell the beer on his breath again....

I am already feeling nervous.


This is a BIG one - and what is keeping me holding on. I do believe that he IS sincere about what he promises. That's the loving part of him coming out.

But the emptiness of promises unfullfilled has ME feeling empty. I am a shell of my former self due to this LIE I have been forced to live.

I don't see a future with a man who's only drive in life is to get home to the beer can.... not to his wife & family.

I've tried Alanon and felt out of place because our problems seem so minor compared to the stories I was hearing. Maybe I'll try again.


Thanks Mark.

Take Care,
Shelle

Shelle,

Keep going to alanon. If its a problem for you it is a problem.

I felt the same way in rehab and early days in AA. I felt in the minor leagues. They had people sucking the alcohol out of disposible wound care wipes (I can tell you many more desparate messures). I found that reasoning and escallation of abuse are very consistant. I've sat in the room with people who killed people due to their intoxication. These weren't 'bad' people either. A college kid how just had a few too many and killed his friend in an auto accident - looking at 10-15 years in prison, never mind the heart ache of killing his friend. A guy my age with kids of simular ages also awaiting sentancing on a DUI involving injuries. Guys who had a habit of beating people up when drunk - seem like [censored] cats in the room sober. Even woman who have done several short prison visits for violating orders of protection sought by their husbands.

Man my life was boring and my problem was relitively benign. On of AA's big expressions was 'not yet'. The 'disease' (perosnally I view it as my character flaw) is in me, just waiting to pick up where I left off. I've had one episode which I call a learning experience. Last fall we were invite to a bbq were exotic mixed drinks were flowing. My wife was telling me try this try that. Well a few little sips added up I guess. I had to leave to pick up my daughter and sitting at a light I felt the start of a buzz. Hmmmm feels nice. After picking up my daughter I came back and the booze was alreday packed away as it was leter in the evening. I was dissapointed not to be able to have a few more samples. Lesson learned - its real and its in me. My only choice is to not have anything.

So go to alanon. Your husbands drinking is eating you up. Thats all that you require for membership. Don't be affraid to share either. EVen though your problem seems small I'm sure many of the woman could relate.

Oh on the beer breath - my wife hated that too. I went through a ritual of exhaling in anotherroom running in and giving her a peck on the lips and rapidly retrated to breath. Pretty sick huh? I'm sure that made her feel loved. (sarcasm).

Ok Heart,

Yes I thought Mark straightened up problem solved whats wrong with you honey? I made that 180 - worked and suceded in being more attentive, doing more things, being someone she could count on. She admitted these facts. But still she had the resentment. Resentment was mentioned by many therapists and I thought not my wife. I honestly didn't see my behaviours had that much negative effect. I'm only starting to come to some significant understanding now and still have a long way to go.

Man first few months sober were so great. I was so excited about it. I wanted to do everything! Funny thing at 2 months of sobriety, we were going out somewhere and I mentioned it. My wife came back with such an angry reply I never spoke of an 'aniversiery' of my sobriety again. July 10 will be one year. I'm not planning on mentioning it, but it means a whole lot to me and hurts deeply not to be able to share it.
One I asked about how she liked the 'new Mark'. I got much better than the old Mark.

The new Mark got a major set back last Christmas when I impulsively told OM's wife about him and my wife. Sorry I sounds, smells, and looks like an affair. I didn't jump too far to my conclusion and wife had full knowledge of my displeasure of her relationship with him. Then a side of my wife I never saw before came out. An angry, no vicious side. Well that didn't knock he off the water wagon but put me in a very deep depression. Death was appealing. I've come back a long way now, but because of my Christmas action out=r marriage has suffered severe harm. I can no longer fill my wifes needs.

During yesterdays spat she has told me she hates it when I do nice things, she hates it when others tell her how much better I look or what a good guy I am, how much I've changed.

I do tend to minimize my drinking past - so I drank I've stopped - stop hating me. I really didn't know. Pointing fingers at others flaws does take some pressure off me. I'm trying something new, an email telling her some more things I feel hurt her and I'm remorseful about. I see this going one of two ways; it will be wahts she's looking for, or she'll add it to her list of things to hate me about. In my opinion to get frogiveness I must fully confess first.

Yesterday was an awakening of sorts. For once I tried to stand in her shoes. I'm just starting to think about it and already I feel more understanding.

As for coping with life I'm still waiting to know intuitively what used to perplex me.

(I'm playing catch up today)

Coach,

I've read your reply and have some problems with it. You may be describing what she means by 'space', something I'm still puzzled by.

We sleep in the same bed. I don't want to change that because that would be one more thing to fix IMO. I'd like to open more free and open conversation between us. Get her to let her gaurd down a bit. If I just sit idly by and not comment on her statements she'll keep trying harder to get a response. In other words she'll crank the hostilities. Sorry but I am no saint, I can take a lot but I do have feelings like everyone else and will reach a limit on what I ca quietly take.

I think one of my problems is bottling things up for too long and that results in me exploding. Sorry but she doesn't have an exclusive right to be the only one mad and speak about it.

Maybe we're breaking thru the walls we built to protect ourselves.

I do see where you are going with your latest piece of advice, that is to make myself minimally available to her. It's something to think about for sure, but I'm not ready to act on in just yet.

We both got a lot of things out yesterday. Let's see where it leads.

Mark,
We all know what you want but believe it or not this isn’t about you! Everything isn’t about you! This is about your wife and how best to handle her, support her and show her that you are not her enemy. And you can’t do that by insisting on selfishly advancing your own agenda over her preferences.

And Mark, talking to her is not the way to communicate your caring to her at this point! Do you know why? Because she isn’t going to listen…worse yet, you are refusing to hear what she is communicating to you! Get it? And how disrespectful is that?

She is saying back off! But you are refusing to listen! Instead you are pushing forward; demanding that she respond to you and so she is! But because you don’t like the message you are refusing to hear her! And guess what Mark? If you continue to push you will push her right out the door! Now please re-read my post to you. I have given you a behavioral blueprint and it’s one that cannot possibly do any additional harm to your situation! It can only help.

Has it never occurred to you that no one ever got themselves into any trouble by simply keeping their big mouth shut?

If you want her to hear you, speak to her in a language that she will understand! Talk my friend is cheap! The only thing that has meaning is what you do, not what you say.

Emphatically,
Coach

Ok Coach that last one sounds better. I have been trying to back off of her. Through May we had a lot of things keep us busy on common goals. Last Tuesday we did a seesion with D12's counselor. Things got ugly in there and spilled out for a couple of days. Tuesday was a 2 hour blow out. I had so much anger built up it wasn't funny. I still did't dump it all. The main point was to let her know with no shadow of a doubt that she was hurting me big time. Point out point acknowledged. We wound the fight down too.

I almost look at conflict as a good thing.

I hear you on backing off again. Thats where we are right now. She's composing an email novel for me, I'll see that when and if I see it.

I do have feelings and part of my anger is no one seems to care. She can go around mouthing off all day and I'm supposed to say 'yes dear'? I'm setting up my boundries and making them known.

I'm perfectly alright with her needing time to think things through, not stalling till she gets the courage/resources to leave. That I have a big problem with. Some things she's been carrying on about are total BS and I let her know that, to stop the BS because I know this that and the next thing and her continued insistance angers me.

Today was peaceful - a night out to dinner with the kids. She was noticably silent at first but started opening up half way thru. I could even joke with her and brough a little smile to her face a couple times.

Sometimes I think she just takes what she can get away with. Seems everytime I set a boundry and enforce it she changes.

I still have a fear about talking to her about anything, even needed conversations, but I getting more confidence back. I have to learn to dump my anger constructively and sooner to avoid these big blow ups.

Well thanks for the follow up it sits better with me the second tome around. I'm taking that advice as far as the no pressure goes. I think what you're saying is what she means when she says 'space'.

Thanks Coach your words have much merit.

I don't buy the seperate bed thing we have our halves.

Mark,
If you were able to figure out intuitively how to cope with life it would have happened by now. The answers aren't going to drop in your lap. You have to go after them and work on them. Changing behaviors is challenging as it's always easiest to go back to what we know best...what we have "practiced" over and over again in our lives. Besides, our original coping skills were often developed as a way to "survive" in our families. It's hard to give up something that may have helped you "survive".

Let me give an example. My father was a "rage-aholic". Our lives were run around his mood. And his mood was never consistent. The same behavior that was acceptable to him one day could be severely punished the next. I learned how to cope by becoming very quiet, and slipping off to my bedroom to read. "Shut up..don't think...don't feel". I also worked at being the "perfect child", so my dad would have no reason to get upset with me. Of course that never worked totally. No one is perfect. He was one of those people who when I would get all A's and one B on my report card, I would be criticized for the B and never praised for the As. While not physically abusive, he was very verbally and emotionally abusive to my mother. At a very young age I would go and try to comfort my mom after one of his outbursts. I wanted to "make-up" for how my dad treated her.

As I grew older, 11 years old or so, I had learned how to anticipate dad's moods, or at least how to de-escalate things before he blew up. I then became the "go-between" he and my mother. My mom: "Heartmending, you go make the suggestion to your father that we do such and such. He'll listen to you. If I suggest it he'll automatically refuse." And it usually did work for me.

Coping skills I learned from my childhood:
1. Shut up when problems arise.
2. Don't ask questions
3. Don't show your feelings
4. I was a good "caretaker". Knew how to handle everyone else's problems, but not my own. Knew how to express love to everyone else, but received little back from family
members. As an adult, I was the one all my friends came to when they needed help solving their problems. I was "Ms. Fix-it" and felt guilty when I couldn't fix a person or situation.
5. Always be perfect. If you're not, then you deserve the criticism you get.
6. Never trust men, they'll always hurt you. (quote to me from my mother.)
7. Food became my drug of choice. To stuff my feelings down, to try and find something that felt pleasurable in my life for at least a moment.

These "coping skills" worked for me as a child to survive a stressful family life. I was the proverbial "good girl". I became a social worker as an adult. (good caretaking job!!) These skills worked for me initially when newly married. I started going to individual counseling, however, to deal with my eating problems. Little by little I saw how the skills that helped me survive as a child, were suffocating me as an adult. I wanted to experience love and joy and passion, etc. I had married a man who was very logical and rational..non-emotive. He was "safe". No anger outbursts from him! But trying to get him to share his feelings was like going to an empty well. My childhood coping skills couldn't move me to a place of love, joy, passion... I didn't even know who the genuine "me" was. I always did as I was told. Others defined me. I truly felt like I would die if I didn't start changing some of the ways I managed and coped with my life.

My journey has been hard, scary, angering, and joyful. I'm still on it. It's been hard for me to learn to speak up on my own behalf in a respectful manner. It's been hard for me to step back and let others handle their own problems as adults. It's been hard for me not to shut down when feelings of anger start to happen. I still struggle with wanting to eat in response to emotional situations I don't know how to handle. And yes...all along the way I've prayed for a miracle. "Please God, heal me. This is too hard. This is too scary. Don't make me go through all this pain for my healing. Just fix me." Well, no instant miracle came along. Continuing with individual counseling and practicing the new skills I've learned has been my "miracle". It is a life long journey, as is recovery from alcoholism/addiction.

A second thought I'd like to share with you, Mark. You mentioned that you felt alcoholism was not a disease but a character defect. I used to believe this, too, even when I first worked with alcoholics. I later learned that people who become alcoholics literally process alcohol differently in their bodies than those who can socially drink and stop. As the alcohol is breaking down in the body after consumption, alcoholics have a different brain chemistry that alters the way the alcohol is processed through their bodies and brains. This alteration has the effect of providing an immediate, phenomenal boost of dopamines into the brain. Dopamine is a "feel good" chemical we naturally produce in our body/brain. But not at these high levels. (Although recent studies have shown that the emotional "highs" we get when in a new relationship are from a natural rush of dopamine to the brain!) The problem with this "boost" is that the levels come crashing down, and the body starts to crave the substance again. The non-alcoholic's chemistry breaks down the alcohol in a relatively neutral manner and passes it out the body.

So yes, defects of character do happen with alcoholism. That's what the 12-steps help work on. But the defects aren't the "person". They are the unhealthy coping skills developed as a result of one's drinking and/or early childhood survival.

OK, I think I've run off at the mouth quite enough for the time being! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Wow Heartmending you described a lot of my persona here. The need to be perfect, the crushing feeling when that fails, etc.

Maybe I should think about alcoholism more as a disease, but I perfer to be harder on myself. Working on myself is something I tend to do in private. My wife didn't even know about some of the AA meetings I was attenting regularly. Even when I decided to stop drinking I didn't share that with anyone. I stopped cold turkey one Sunday last July. By Wednesday I was hospitalized after finally collapsing from several days of physical withdrawl. I didn't even know what was happening to me. I chalked it up to nevres from discovering the sorry state of my marriage.

Why do I keep such attempts of life changing behaviours a secret? I still ponder that one. At first brush I think it is a fear of failure. If I let others know what I plan to do and fail then I'll be ridiculed. So if no one knows only I know of the failure. Then I have quite the opposite behavour when I suceed with a daunting task. I brag! I was so excited at my success with stopping drinking I may have rubbed it in my wife's face. I felt so renewed and alive. I was much more than happy. Now I realize she didn't share my happiness at all, in fact she resented it.

I learned virtually identical coping skills in my childhood. It's very hard to get beyond them.

Thanks for chipping in your advice and please do so in the future. I long for the day when I can post things are better than ever. I hope that day comes soon.

Mark

Mark,
I understand your anger over my suggesting that you simply stand there and accept her irrational and unjustified angry out bursts. They are disrespectful and best and hurtful to the bone I’m sure. And rest assured that there are ways to respond to her…and I will be happy to share those methods with you…but first I am trying to get you to accept a new method of communicating with her.

The idea is to defuse her anger by taking away her right to be angry. You are presently trying to do just that…by logically presenting to her your apology, your sorrow and your regrets for past behavior. But what you’re also doing is defending yourself over the further fiction that she’s created to make you even more the villain. And this won’t work. She isn’t interested in hearing you right now. All she’s interested in is punishing you!

What’s been happening is that she feeds off your obvious pain and fuels her self with it to give you more of the same. In doing so she is punishing you and is enjoying the experience.

And she is self righteous about it all…feeling that you have earned her derision and contempt for your years of bad behavior. And so in her mind, even if she is convicting you of imagined sins that you are not guilty of at the moment, you still deserve the punishment for all the pain you’ve caused her over the years…pain that that you were never held accountable for at the time.

Think of it this way. A habitual thief is arrested by the police for having robbed a home. The truth is that he didn’t rob this particular home but in that his past record is so bad and he’s robbed so many other home that he never was arrested for, no one cares! And so he is convicted and punished. Is this just? You tell me. But who cares? The thief is still going to jail and that my friend is reality…YOUR REALITY!

The trick is to get past the punishment to a place where the problem can be fixed. What happened, happened. That can’t be changed. Your problem is to get her to a place where she is ready to go forward.

What I’m suggesting to you is that you use a technique to do it. A method. A behavioral operating system! A system that will not only safe guard your sense of self but one which will help you to disuse the situation and move forward with your WW.

Just having a plan at hand and knowing what you’re doing will provide you with a new feeling of control over the situation should make your tacit acceptance of her egregious outbursts palatable enough to deal with…because they are part of the plan…and so they won’t hurt quite as much.

And so my suggestions to you are the first baby steps in learning this new technique. If you can just get yourself to the point where you stop re-acting to her outburst with further outbursts of your own…it will be a huge step. You will be taking away her emotional energy…stripping her of her greatest weapon against you...and in the process forcing her to begin confronting her self and facing up to her own bad behavior…something she doesn’t need to do while she has you to confront.

The next single most important thing you need to learn is to listen! Really listen! Not the kind of listening you do in an argument…hearing only that which you want to refute. But the kind of listening that is selfless and patient. The kind in which you make NO RESPONSE to what ever is said…but instead, you are just there for her to talk too, like a wall.

If she wants to complain, you listen. If she wants to rant you listen. If she is angry with a friend, you listen. If she has a problem…any problem…you listen…and you do not suggest a solution! Ever! All you do is listen!

Mark, if you can learn to do this, then pretty soon she will be coming to you with everything that’s in and on her mind. Why, because you will not be there to criticize, suggest solutions or tell her the mistakes! Instead you will become the invaluable resource that only very few have…a place to go in total safety! A place where there is no pain…only love and support.

Now learning to listen may sound easy but don’t kid yourself…particularly for a man…this requires a huge and CONCIOUS effort to achieve. But if you can get yourself there…tell me…how different would that place be in your marriage then where you are at the moment?

There’s more but we need to take it in steps. But if you listen to your uncle coach you will not only begin to work this out but you will be shocked at the carry over to other facets of your life…and then you will really be shocked…at what you hear! I’m telling you, you won’t believe it. A whole new world will open up to you. Folks will tell a person who is willing to listen almost anything and everything.

You can do this. I train people to do it every day and the new success they enjoy in their lives is remarkable. More important the new feeling of self worth are pricelss.

Coach

Coach,

I share your opinion on her wanting to punish me and enjoy it. That came out in my spew the other day.

Last couple of days have been an email exchange. Ths afternoon she said she was working on the reply to my latest one. I asked her if she though it was a good idea (this unofficially adapted email thing). She shared my opinion of not being sure and it does save us all the yelling and crying.

She suggested printing my latest email and discussing it. I told her why not? I also mentioned we were working on to many issues at one time and it feels like solving world hunger. Maybe we should prioritize our issues and focus our attention and energy on less issues at one time.

I don't know where we are coach. It seems like we're on the edge of something. I sense more of a desire on her part to start working through things and stop avoiding them.

I've been keeping the peace - not bringing things up - leaving her alone and nothing happens. She does the same. We argue, we discuss. Its a painfull process we are both admittedly scared about.

Are we starting a recovery process maybe?

Mark,
You didn't get to the place you are in one day and you will not be able to leave that place in one day either. What I am suggesting to you is a life time change in your very persona. One that you have to live, not just talk about. rest assured that it will be noticed. Just give it time. Learn to believe in yourself.
Coach

Mark,
Just a couple of thoughts about your wife not wanting to acknowledge your progress and resenting it when others do.

I wanted nothing more than for my x...the love of my life....to get into recovery and stay in recovery. I witnessed multiple relapses. I'd get my hopes up only to have them come crashing down. "Maybe this time it will work!!" Each time, a little more of my heart broke. I knew I "should" leave him, but didn't do it. I saw the man he could be when he wasn't using. I knew he was in there somewhere. But as long as he used he wasn't available for a relationship with me.

The time he got into recovery, and stayed in recovery, started like every other time. Only this time I was pretty much burnt out. I was tired of hurting...tired of my own anger about the whole thing. Tired of knowing that I was an adult who allowed, who chose, to remain in that situation.

I was afraid to trust any change he made. He had lived for years as an active alcoholic. I did feel angry at him, even when he did better. As coach mentioned, I wanted him to be held accountable and experience the hurt he caused me. But underneath it all I was scared of getting hurt again. I was scared because I still deeply loved this man although I didn't like his behaviors. I was scared that I would allow that love to keep me in a situation that I knew was bad for me.

To try and protect myself, I'd minimize any progress he made. I didn't want to get my hopes up again. If I acknowledged his progress to him or myself, I felt that it was just feeding my hope. If others brought his progress to my attention, it pissed me off. I didn't want them to contribute to any sense of hope for my x on my behalf. Besides, I wanted him "punished" by them, too. I didn't want him to think that what he did was ok.

I don't think that I was verbally abusive to my x, but I definately didn't cut him any slack. And if he in any way made an attempt to justify, excuse, explain, or defend his behaviors, it just made me more angry. I would shut down. If he were to constantly point out all the changes he was making, I would often think "Yeah, big deal! You're finally acting decent like the rest of us have been doing for a long time!" And again, I didn't want him to think that this short time of change had convinced me that he would maintain the changes. I'd been down that road before, and it hurt too darn much. Besides, if I "slacked off" by acknowledging his changes, he might take that as a license to fall back into his old behaviors or not progress.

The most effective thing he did was as "coach" suggested. He listened. Now I work hard at not being verbally abusive by name calling. I try to address the behavior that bothers me. So, I'm not sure how it would have gone if I'd been verbally attacking him all the time. But I do know that when he acknowledged and accepted all my feelings, when he was willing to listen to my hurt and anger, when he accepted full responsibility for his recovery and needed changes, and SHOWED me those changes day by day by day, by week, by month, etc. it gradually started to make a difference in me. I felt safer in loving him. I felt safer in telling him about my love for him. I finally had gotten rid of enough anger that I did want to focus more on his needs and wants. But, he respected MY timing in working through all these issues. I didn't care what he had to say, how he felt, what he wanted, early in his recovery.

He listened. He made himself available when I had things I wanted to talk with him about. He didn't try to convince me about his progress. He said that he recognized that he had no right to expect me to stay with him, and that he could understand why I wouldn't want to. But that he hoped that I would give him another chance. And he didn't keep bugging me, pressuring me, to accept his changes.

I knew I wasn't supportive of him early in his recovery. I told him that was something I didn't think I could do. I was worn out, angry, and didn't want to get hurt again. I said that he would need to get support somewhere else for the time being. Like from his AA group, and his individual counselor.

Another thought I had was that I wanted to get through this painful time as soon as possible. I wasn't enjoying this time. I was afraid he'd give up on me, our relationship, because I couldn't accept and support his changes early on. I was afraid he'd leave because I wasn't meeting his needs. I was afraid that he wouldn't give ME enough time to heal. But if I tried to skip over my feelings and needs, to pressure myself to change, I just ended up worse off. I made peace with some of this by reminding myself that I had lived for years with him not meeting my needs. That people could set aside their own needs for an extended period of time if they felt something, someone, was important enough. He was important enough for me, and he decided that I was important enough to him to be patient.

I can't speak for your wife. But I do recognize some of her behaviors and attitudes.

HM,
You break my heart. Why is it do you think, that some of us are elected to carry a load beyond anything that anyone would believe possible,…while others…they just blithefully dance through life never knowing the depth of real adversity? A childish question I know.
Coach

HM,

You have described my feelings almost to a T.

Although my H has recently been told my a professional that he is NOT an alcoholic, we have done this same dance of improve/slip, improve/slip as you described with your H.
(In my H's case it has been both with the alcohol use and with verbal/emotional abuse.)

I am now trying to get a handle on my anger and dig deep enough to find the strength to hold on as my H attempts to make positive changes once again.

I have set aside my needs for many years now and I am not sure if I can convince myself to do it yet again.

I fear that I am clean out of "second-chances" for my H.


Shelle