I wanted to post this here intead of my journal so that it might get as much exposure as possible.

To get those of you who are unfamiliar with my sitch up to speed, a short synopsis:

My WW asked me for a D and moved out on Thanksgiving Day '04. She claims that her A was strictly emotional until after she moved out (I still don't know about that one). She "fell in love" with another resident who is also the director of an outside program that she is required to participate in as a part of her residency.

She has since realized the folly of her actions, and that she will not be happy with the OM. She tells me she doesn't want to lose me as a H, and she wants to make amends....but only after her residency is over. You see, the OM's W took their child and moved back home, so he moved in with my WW.

My WW is afraid to make any waves this close to the end of her residency (it is over June 30) - so she CLAIMS that he and she both realized that they were not going to end up together, so they are no longer having SF, only living like roommates. He is very passive, and she very dominant, so I know she calls the shots in their relationship. If she didn't want to have SF, then they would not be having SF. I am just not positive she is telling me the truth. Many of my friends, as well as many here, have told me to stop fooling myself, and accept the fact that the sex continues if they are still living together.

Am I being naive to think that she can be living with him and not having SF?

I just don't think I can deal with finding out that she continues to lie to me even now.

TM

TM:

"Continuing" to do the same things over and over again will surely lead you to getting these "continued" results. KWIM?

You know the answer already to your own question. Please don't think anyone here is going to "support" you in enabling your WW's continued betrayal of you.

I hope that in your heart of hearts you know that "June 30th" will come and go just like any other day of the year. There will then come the excuses of, "well, I need him to write me a letter of reccomendation for this job I want, so I have to continue living with him" . There are always going to be reasons, excuses, my friend.

THIS IS YOUR LIFE, so if you wanna continue on with the charade of all of this, IT IS YOUR RIGHT !!! You swallow more of your own self dignity and pride each time you move your own boundaries.

Remember, there will be NOTHING magical about this day (June 30th). This is YOUR OWN FOG talking.

I really do not think you should be mad at your WW. Her actions have more than told you where you rank in her priorities. You are accepting all of this. The current state that your life is in (whether good or bad, not my place to judge), is a DIRECT RESULT of YOUR CHOICES. This is all kind of "groundhoggish" my Texas friend. Your choices, your life.

Goodluck,

Your (non-enabling) friend,

Sourmale

TM,

It is certainly possible that SF isn't happening while she lives there, but the situation is still wrong. Do they have separate bedrooms? Or are they still sleeping in the same bed, regardless of SF? To me, the intimacy of sleeping while "cuddling" is just as bad, if not worse, than SF.

Also, if she is serious about making amends, would she be receptive to staying at a long-term hotel type place (like Extended Suites or some other temporary housing) until her residency ends? Or, of course she could stay with a female friend until June 30.

There are just many easier and more reasonable options for her living conditions until June 30. Living with the OM, whether as a "roommate" or whatever, should be avoided at all costs. If she is telling the truth that she and OM both realize it is over, then she should be willing to take some steps as a good faith action to start the reconciliation process.

If she really is adamant against it and gets angry with you for even bringing it up, then I'm afraid the A isn't really completely over.

I know you feel like you have to tread lightly, especially with June 30 so close. So be careful not to give ultimatums or to shut her down by yelling, etc. But let her know that every day she stays living with OM hurts you, and that the healing that is necessary to save your M will not start until she and OM are no longer together in any arrangement, as roommates or otherwise.

Squiggle

Squiggs:

With all due respect, does it really matter a hill of beans if they have different bedrooms????? Hello !!!!! The woman is married and is LIVING with another man.....END OF DISCUSSION HERE.

TM's WW is in no way, shape, or form interested in "making amends". Her actions SPEAK VOLUMES. Maybe it is just me.....and I am the moron ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), but I sometimes cannot believe there is even room for discussion of this type of thing. This is a clear cut, black and white issue. She is either interested in "recovery" or "not". Her actions to date continue to tell TM her answer. Treading lightly untill June 30th is what TM's WW would like even more. It just gives her more time to sit on the fence and line up the next bit of excuses.

TM is a good man, but he is unknowingly giving all BS out here a first hand look at the consequences of "modifying" these Marriage Building plans. The fact that he is where he is today, is a DIRECT result of his choice to "fence sit" himself and not do a real and hard core Plan B.

I had an old Chemistry Professor who always said "garbage in--Garbage out". You do a half a$$ed Plan B, you should expect to get half A$$ed Plan B results.

Travelling man, you should not be suprised by any of this.

LM

P.S. Before any one gets all riled up and starts whining that I am being "too rough" and not "supporting" TM, save your breath. This is something that he needs to hear for his OWN sake. If I didn't give a $hit, why post at all.

Lemonman - You rock! Anyone reading this can see right through the WW's words. The only thing that counts is actions.

TM - You are obviously about third on your wife's list. Her career and OM are first and second. Are you happy with that?

Sour Dude:

Preach On!

Even though it seems to have been positive for you to "exit" the board ......I for one miss your "tough" postings .....they almost always Cheer Me up (or in some cases Crack me up).

Your style of posting is sorely lacking these days.
later

I dont think it matters one iota whether they are having SF or not. They are still having contact. End of story. No healing or reconciliation can take place as long as there is contact of any type. To think anything else is merely mental masturbation.
TM, I know that you want reconciliation badly. I am afraid that you want it so badly that you arent totally dealing in reality. Here is the reality that you should be embracing......you will survive this no matter the outcome as long as you strictly adhere to mb principles. Have that strength and that confidence and do not, DO NOT, deviate from the boundaries that are set forth in plan B. Get the bounce back in your step and pull yourself together and know that you have control over your life. Right now, WW is NOT part of your life, nor should she be while living with OM. Control what you can, and give what you cant up to a power higher than yourself. Do all this and you will be fine. We mb'ers have picked a narrow road to travel and the temptation can be great to deviate from that road, but know that any deviation can likely lead us right over a cliff. You deserve better than that TM. God wants to perform a miracle for you in your life. Dont limit what he can do for you. Everyday that passes without the miracle, and we dont know what miracle he has in mind for us, puts us one day closer. Forget about June 30th. It might be the day, it might not.

Lemonman -- My point was that I doubt they sleep in separate bedrooms, so sleeping together may as well be SF. Maybe you misunderstood me, but I said that they shouldn't be living together and that if she were interested in reconciliation, she should be willing to have other living arrangements. Maybe I don't say it as bluntly as you (which is one of your best qualities, BTW), but it sounds like you agree with me on that point. As for ultimatums, etc., we seem to disagree there. I think that if TM needs to give an ultimatum because he is at the end of his rope, then by all means give it. But if he isn't sure, then he shouldn't do it just for the sake of doing it. Only he can decide how much he is willing to take.

WasCrushed -- I think it matters a lot whether they are having SF/sleeping together, FWIW. I agree that all contact needs to stop for reconciliation, but I think there are definitely degrees of contact. And while cold turkey is the ideal and cleanest form of NC, that's just not reality in most cases. Even with "cold turkey" NC, there are often lapses during recovery. Living together and sleeping together, though, are about as bad as it gets with contact.

TM -- It is obvious that your marriage is your #1 priority. Until that is also true for your wife, you can never really recover your marriage. From your WW's actions and her excuses, she still has a ways to go. Maybe she is getting closer or maybe she's just stringing you along. None of us know that for sure, but as a BS I know that it is tempting for you to look at all things as her "getting closer". One of the great things about these boards is that other people can give us a wakeup call and show us the "stringing along" side of it.

I know this is tough for you. Hang in there!

Squiggle

TM

The answer is "yes."

Bless your heart. I know exactly where you are because I've been there myself. You know in your heart that what she's telling you is not true. If you believed it, you wouldn't be posting here for other's opinions.

What's the old saying, one can't see the forest because of the trees. If the doctor had just told you that you had inoperable cancer would your next concern be about your blood pressure? You're concerned about what acitivities in which she is participating while she's living with another man. Can you see how ridiculous that seems? She's sucked you into her fog and it has hindered your ability to think rationally too. Sex or no sex is an inconsequential fact. What they're doing is wrong and no justification/rationalization in the world would ever make it right. Don't participate in their mind games...

Hi, TM

Quote:
=====================================
Am I being naive to think that she can be living with him and not having SF?
=====================================

Yes.

Gimble

Squigs, my friend, I think I did misunderstand you. We are actually in agreement on these points. Actually I do NOT think TM should give an ultimatum at all. That is NOT likely to be of any value at this point.

It is my UNEXPERT <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> opinion that the ONLY option for Tman at this point (irregardless of what he wants for his marriage) is to do a hard core, BY THE BOOK, PLAN B. He is in a Fog, and still "drowning" here. He has physically removed himself from the WW, but that is about it. There can be NO FURTHER progress without a PLAN B.

He is just afraid to face the real possibility of the consequences of a PLAN B......namely DIVORCE. I don't begrudge him for this fear...it is natural and normal.....but it is nonetheless "keeping him in the fog".

He is a grown man, and he has to make the decision to "step up" and start a REAL PERSONAL recovery plan. He has support, but that is all we can do. He has to do what is right for him.....because in the end, it is he who has to live with the consequences.

I know people are sick to death of me saying this, but I will say it again....WE NEED TO TAKE 100% RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT HAPPENS IN OUR LIVES. We may not be able to CONTROL the actions of others, etc.. but we sure as hell can control how we react to those actions.


LM

yes...terribly naive.

you are HEARING WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR FROM YOUR VERY WW...she is sitting in their love nest tonight, and having a big, giant slice of wayward chocolate fudge cake right now....wanna cut another piece and feed it to her? you're doing it right now thru passive enablement.

lemon is the man! you sooooo rock lemony...when life gives one lemons, don't make lemonade, call lemonman! am sending you a private email lemony ...

also, back to the am I naive thing...
\
how can you logically break up and still live together? every single person I know who's shacked up w/somebody, when breakup time came, one party moved out almost immediately.

what I think is the ww is seeing the destruction and the affair dude is not a happy camper that his w took their child after he moved in with your loose wifeypoo...that doesn't make for a happy love nest...the guy misses his family, thus she is trying to see what guy (you or the other man) is the "sure thing"...she is weighing her options and keeping you on the line long enough so you'll hang on and eat some chocolate wayward crumbs...

in reality...she wants om...om is missing his real family...she is losing her controlling grip on him...and YOU also...so she is going to tighten her reigns on everybody and stay with the guy who doesn't run...now doesn't that make you feel all gushy and romantic inside? she wants to just be happy...have somebody feed her ego right now.

you need to do a hardcore xxx plan b ok? I am serious. If you don't you'll push their affair on. let it burn in flames...

example: today was my son's last soccer game...I see xh there with new ow/wifeypoo...she NEVER comes to my son's games...and if she ever came, it was five min before it was over...my xh is son's assistant coach and he's very active out there...running around, yelling, helping, etc...today he was ON THE SIDELINES WITH THE OW/W and she was about six inches away from him at all times. I looked at that after walking up to the field and said to myself "something is afoot at the circle K" my xh would not stand there quietly...something is wrong.

seems the other parents come up to me almost immediately and ask ME why my xh is not coaching. I say that I dont know...I don't talk to him except at games (I am pretty much in permanent plan b/d)..they tell me ow/w was "yelling at him" and degrading him before the game...now my xh is a control nut freak who will not allow anybody to do anything like that...so wtf? I was dumbfounded...but then it hits me...he was back home in tn last weekend (he told me) and my best friend saw his car at ow1's home back there...he's cheating again...

so the ow/w now is making my xh stay on a very very short leash and was punishing him today by NOT wanting him to coach our son's team (you see with the WS it is ALL ABOUT THEM ALWAYS 24/7)...and it's sad. so I walk up to xh during quarter break, give my son some water, and say "why aren't you coaching now...you know they need you?" He responds "I don't want to talk about it..plus LIKE I NEED 2 HEADS NOW?" 2 heads now? seems he's spouting venom about the ow now...

my xh's now ow/w is just like your W...she's tightening the reigns because she fears she is losing something...not somebody, but something. my xh's chickiepoo is most likely fearful he's cheating (what happens when you start a relationship with a cheater anyway...you get suspicious) and she's confused with whom it is...guess she thinks it is me...wrongo..

only thing which will work is to go dark...state your demands for plan b to end, and until that time or until the end of time, stay dark. she will either give in to the points, or she will stay off dancing down the wayward road.

gain respect...go dark...resend your plan b note and say or add in the end of it...this is it. you either help our marriage heal as this is your profession, healing, or else I am outta here for good.

there is no middle ground here...plan a is for a short while...this is time to act. if she's not willing , you have to be.

plan b saved my sanity.

forgot to add...after I asked my xh why he was NOT coaching...five min. later he walked onto field and began his coaching duties...the ow/w stormed off...

it's all about control to the ws's out there.. your domineering ww is just trying to see who will feed her more cake..either you or om.

I must admit, despite the serious and sad nature of this thread, this quote above made me chuckle out loud. That analogy you mad JPH is awesome. It says everything that I would have said, if I could have thought of it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Tman --> we are not all piling on here, although it may seem like it. Be happy that you are getting some responses. When people don't care or think it is a "lost cause" they don't post.

LM

lemon...u can email me at [email]uofmtigerrr@aol[/email]

NO Peachy....you rock <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You said it perfectly above. I like your "tone" and I can tell we are on the same page with things..... We may have NOT saved our marriages, but we have gained a lot more in the process......OUR LIVES BACK.

This is not to say that "staying married" is not gaining your life back....but saving a marriage with an unrepenatant continually betraying spouse, having to "spy" forever and be "waiting" for the other shoe to drop is not saving anything.

Why save a marriage and lose yourself in the process? I am all for saving marriages...but NOT at the expense of losing myself.....vows or no vows, there is "nothing" honorable in doing that.


LM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

TM

YOU KNOW WHAT I THINK FWW or NOT.

You are fooling yourself and causing yourself more hurt with this situation ... you set boundaries and due dates and say well when it comes end of Feb I'll do this, then March, then April, then May, now June...and unless you stand up NOW you will move that date as well.

TM, there is NO way I above anyone would say get a Dv and move on if there was a sliver of hope, but so so sadly I dont think your wife wants to even try.

Her story simply does not make sense. IF it was over then she has so many options, her own place. a hotel, hotel apartments etc etc etc ..no her story does not hold water.

Lets just consider this situation if she is telling even half the truth about it being over,....

Firstly I'm afraid there is no way SF is NOT going on if she says she doesn't want to 'upset' the OM.... if it was over like she says he wouldn't be upset would he ,,,
Secondly if it holds any water at all then she is using OM like she has used you, isn't she?

TM has hard as this is for me to say and for you to read, I think you should file now without ANY more talk to her ... yes I truly think its time. I actually feel ill inside saying this, but I see no alternative with her behaviour.
But I know you have done everything, followed MB got MC the whole 9 yards PLUS.

IF she wants you then she WILL move heaven and earth to get to you ... but I have to say I would like to put my life savings on a bet of her coming up with another excuse, to hold off the divorce, to have patience etc etc etc.

I'm sorry TM, I won't say what you want to hear...as a FWW I don't see in her any actions that even says shes thinking about your M, or you, or being sorry or remorseful ,,,MAYBE you will see it someday, but not now not yet.

Move on, if shes serious she'll follow and fight for you ..just dont expect her too TM. Start protecting yourself so that though you may 'want her you will not 'need' her.

May God give you the strength to face this TM

Wow. I didn't expect this many responses to my query.

Thanks everyone for the posts.

I think there is a little misunderstanding, though. I AM in Plan B presently. I have been since I moved back to TX, although I have broken it briefly twice since then by phone...not face to face. She and I haven't seen each other since March 20th...going on two months now.

I just postulated the question because I have been discussing it with my good friend. She is of the same opinion as all here, though.

I still hope to prove everyone wrong, but am preparing myself emotionally for the truth - if it is what y'all think...

I am starting to plan my life alone...do things to lay a groundwork for my (solo) future. It is a very new, and very uncomfortable experience to lay plans for just one. All my previous experience has been a team effort (some here would say more like me acquiescing to her every wish)....but I can teach myself to stand alone - although I really don't want to....

I can and will stay dark on her....


TM

Sounds like she's dominating two men!!! If she doesn't want to make waves. Tell her to kick his butt out! Let him sleep in an empty exam room.

PUH LEEZ!

TM,

You have been give good advice. A minimum effort on her part would be to live separately, but even that you cannot be sure of. She has not made that effort either.

LM, particularly has given you great advice. (I admit I tend to like his approach to things). I really like the cancer analogy alot.

I am glad you are moving on, and while being alone is NEVER fun, it can have rewards that are not obvious to you now. You are free to take career risks. You are free to take investment risks. And you are free to lead your life in a way that enhances you. Now if you do the latter and you become happy in your life, you will have a problem...people will find you interesting espcecially those of the opposite gender. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So move on, your future awaits you. You will enjoy it more than you realize.

God Bless,

JL