Thanks for our insight Neak.

I certainly hope that WH will be a different person when the A ends, but the problem is that I don't think I should remain married to the person he WAS, not because he was a bad person, but because he was a "dfficult" person, and look where my tolerance and efforts got me.

Some say I did too short a plan A (2 months after d day) but I had been plan Aing for 2 YEARS! during which he had been detached and uninterested, short-tempered etc and I had not LBd, because it's not my style. I just tried to be understanding, I asked him several times what was up. I did not demand things etc. OK, I know it sounds too good to be true, but I was just confused and thought he was going thru some sort of crisis he could not explain.

The point is I don't know why I would go back to the kind of relationship we had for 19 years, because it ended with his infidelity, and non-remorse.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

But still, I remember reading very good reasons to remain married, except I can't find them!

I see what you're saying about how he was. In my opinion, you would not be able to accomplish true recovery if he came out of the A and went back to being that kind of person. Recovery takes commitment and effort from both people, but especially the FWS. You will know very quickly if he has become that kind of person, and whether you want to even make the effort.

If a total turnaround didn't happen, I wouldn't be able to think of any good reasons to stay married, either.

Yes, the only reason would be a totally new relationship.

Yes, lucky for you. People who don't duck are liable to be goosed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Wow, that's a toughie. I'm not sure I can answer it satisfactorily, or even completely, since I'll have to quit instantly if my pt. calls. I think our circumstances, despite a number of superficial similarities, have one crucial difference that keeps us from a one-answer-fits-all solution, and that is that HP wants to stay married to me while your husband wants out. I don't understand why my husband wants to stay married to a woman of whom he so frequently and energetically disapproves. It doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. Frankly, I think it's nuts. But the fact still remains that he does. And as long as he wants to remain, I'm not going anywhere either.

Well, rats. Baby's heart rate keeps dropping and I'm going to have to go find out why and what I can do about it. Will complete the thought before I go to bed this morning.

t&l

Funny you should answer that t&l, because WH has never said that he didn't want to remain married. Obviously he only answered "I don't know" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> to questions about what he wanted.

He was forced to leave because "he didn't know" but since he left, he has made NO MOVE to divorce or even have his mail redirected. He has taken nothing but most of his clothes.

He does not admit he lives somewhere else, nor that OW lives with him. So who knows?

But the fact that he cannot express himself has pissed me off by this time and if he never will be able to, I don't think we have a futur.

Still I did read some good reasons once, a long time ago...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I hope you understand that I'm not trying to make any negative comment about your worth or value as a wife because you have a husband that strayed. Quite frankly, if there'd ever been a time in the past when HP expressed an interest in a split I'd have taken him up on his offer so fast it would've left his head spinning around like a chicken on a spit! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Here are the two places our scenarios seriously diverge. (I know I said one, but I've thought about it a bit more since.) The differences in our husbands are what I said above--one wants to stay and the other doesn't--even if he won't come right out and say it (not only chicken,but a spitless one at that--unless, of course, you've got a rotisserie handy and could skewer him yourself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). The differences between you and me are that you are looking for a man with whom you can have a meaningful relationship, and I am not.

This would actually make a good conclusion to the Soggy Saga, but since you asked now, it's OK here, too. I tried so hard for so long in so many ways to develop a relationship with this man. Sometimes we even made a bit of progress, but always we would come to a point where the door slammed shut and he withdrew, leaving me on the outside. Repeated rejection is incredibly demeaning over time, and eventually my personal boundary for it was reached. To the best of my ability (which means sometimes I succeed and sometimes I don't) I chart my own course in faithfulness to my beliefs and my conscience, and whether he likes it or not, I go ahead and do what I think I have to do. At least most of the time, I am not elated by his (rare) praise, nor cast down by his (not-rare) criticisms. I AM always pleased, though, when I can make him laugh--and I still can do that every now and again. This attitude towards life, which combines self-determination AND disengagement, whether other people approve of it or not, is what allows me to remain in an admittedly-odd situation and attempt to thrive. If he were to die today, I would be devastated with grief and regret...because as long as he's alive there's the faintest glimmer of hope that just maybe someday he'll let his barriers down at last and we can "find" each other before this is all over.

In the meantime, I do what I think I have to do and try not to give unnecessary offense in the process. This is my choice. It is not a burden (most days! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />). It is not a sacrifice. Lots of people who have committed great wrongs against someone else, never get the chance to "make things right." Fortunately, I have been given the opportunity to atone, and the mindset to want to try, and I want to use it to the very end.

I don't think this rationale for staying in a bad marriage can really apply to you, though. Even with all the good intentions in the world towards rebuilding and reconciliation that you might have, your husband has left and is moving on--no matter what he chooses to call it. If you are a Christian you have Biblical grounds for divorce and remarriage, should you so choose. You DO want to have a real relationship with a man who really loves you, and there is no reason that I can see, either personal or spiritual, why you shouldn't seek to find one wherever God leads. If your husband (or mine, for that matter) were to become truly converted and allow himself to be changed by divine power into the image of Christ, as the Bible tells us God wants to do, then you could hope to find both faithfulness from, and intimacy with, this "new" man. Without that, I'd be the last person in the world to tell you that a relationship such as you describe is the best that a woman like you could hope for...and you'd better settle for what you can get while you can get it!!

There are good reasons for remaining married. I don't know where you read it either, but I believe you. But unless you can chart your own course and live a life independent-while-still-in-the-vicinity-of your husband, then I wouldn't recommend that you try my life, at your house! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Some days I wonder why I try it myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I'm too tired to make sense any longer, assuming I was making sense up till this point! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Just want you to know that I wish you joy and success in whatever fork of the road you eventually find yourself on, OK?

t&l

Thndrliting:

Let me say just one thing here and one thing only.

You are one funny, articulate, awesome woman.

Nuff said.

LM

t&l:

you have awesome insight! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You have described my life and feelings EXACTLY and actually what my futur would have been if the predator OW hadn't been successful!

I am a Christian, and therefore I hate to think of divorce but it was a great relief to find out that it is allowed for infidelity. Way back in february I went to talk to a priest and he said I had every right to ask WH to leave and divorce him. We didn't get to the part of remarrying and I haven't had any more chats with him. MB is enough for me!

You are right too about the fact that I want a MEANINGFUL relationship, and I probably would have fought for it with WH for the rest of my life.

Every now and then I get a suspicion that maybe this is meant to be because it will be better for me, but I feel SO SORRY for WH. It is very sad. I still want to save him!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Wonder when I'll get over that feeling...

Thanks for your words.

Now I'd like the end of the story please <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well T&L,
You answered lots and lots of my questions in the last few pages.

My respect for you continues to grow.

I see much of your wisdom in your daughters, and am happy you have been able to pass it on. I am pretty sure by now that they would have done well even had something happened to you, however, they have benefited from your instruction and example, and I am glad it was there for them.

May God bless you in reaching your goals and dreams.

SS

BTW T&L, I don't know what the initials HP mean but in spanish they have a very specific meaning, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> sort of what I call WH over and over when I'm angry!

Hijo de puta? Hijo de perro? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Actually, back at the beginning of the saga I gave him the nickname Hubby Poo, which is where the HP came from, so it really wasn't very dramatic, at least in English!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've got to get ready for work soon, but will hope to log on tonight if circumstances allow for a little drive-by commentary. Enjoyed the feedback today. Thanks

t&l

No, not in english, but it does make ME smile everytime!

TAH-DAH! At last, all problems with dissatisfied stomachs and unruly laptops aside, here is the picture of Mr. Incredible With Flowing Tresses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If some stranger walked up and handed me this photo, the t-shirt would be my only clue that I knew the individual pictured therein. Without that shirt, there would be no hint that said individual was my mother, or female, or even necessarily human.

Haha. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I resemble that remark. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

The only reason she'd recognize the shirt is that she and her husband gave it to me for Christmas one year. It says, "My mind works like lightning. One brilliant flash and it's gone." Do you think they were trying to tell me something? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

t&l

I don't think you ever will. I'm not sure you should. On my bad days, when I remember again that there's somebody else some place else who still loves me, I find that I just cannot bring myself to consider leaving, when it would be so hurtful and so unkind to HP. I know I can't "save" him. But I don't have to do anything to increase his isolation and "lostness," either. When it comes to relationships, he always reminds me of a little kid on the outside of a party--where other kids are playing and having a good time--looking in through the window and feeling left out, but not able to get inside to have fun with everybody else. In his case, even though the door is wide open, he can't bring himself to walk inside. How sad is that?

For you, even though you can't "save" him, you DO know Someone who can, and as long as you and your husband are both alive, regardless of who or what you may find in your future, I don't see any reason why you can't commit yourself to prayer for this man and his salvation. It's something you CAN do, regardless of his own behavior, and in the process of praying for him, you will find your own bitterness and pain at what has happened to you to be beautifully relieved.

I still cry about my lost love, among many other things. But I'm remembering the line from the song "Abide with Me," and it has come to apply to me. "Ills have no weight, and tears no bitterness." I haven't gotten to the part where my burdens are weightless, but now even when I cry, they are no longer bitter tears because I've quit being a bitter person...And if that's ALL I ever got out of the efforts I've put into salvaging The Sad Saga of OtherSusan the Stupid, believe me, it will have been more than enough!

t&l

I completely agree with you and I have been praying for him for quite a while now. My tears WERE bitter, but not anymore. I guess that's what happens when time goes by. I am an optimistic kind of person, I always try to see the glass half full and not half empty, and I try to never be bitter or seek revenge. I find that life is easier to live like that.

During all this I have felt much more sadness than anger. I feel more sorry for him and his confusion and his belief that "everything will be OK" than anger. It seems pointles to get angry with someone who doesn't even understand what he's doing, but someday he will.

Anyway, enough of me, I have my own thread for that. And there's nothing to report.

I like your picture... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

T&L,

Why have you ignored LemonMan's glowing complements?

BTW, I like the photo. What do you use to color your hair? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

(I'm in trouble now, I know.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

But back to your so-called "clam". I was thinking "hmmm" when I was reading your description of him, but I forgo...

Oh, yes! The thing is, you say "I know what's really inside". I'm not sure you do. I'm not sure you don't either, OK, but it reminds me of something I notice about my wife. If I say 100 postive things about something (or someone), then I say one negative thing, she'll say "Now I know what you really think.", (meaning, in case you didn't figure it out, that the one negative thing I said must be "what I really think".) Why is it never the case that a person can routinly critisize something/someone and then once complement it/them - and people say "Now I know what you really think!"?

I suspect that, as little as HP says, there still are some inconsistencies (which he, himself, would never admit), and amongst those are some positives and negatives. For example, his statement that he made ONE TIME predicting your eternal fate - you take as "what he really thinks", when he might have said many times something more positive, but you didn't notice or have forgotten them. Is this possible?

-AD

t&l, I haven't posted in months, but I sat down this afternoon just to check the pulse at MB as I approach one year past D-day. Not coincidentally, for I believe in no such thing, your thread spoke to me, and now, some 5 hours later, I've finished reading every word of it, and I'm profoundly affected. It's doubtful that knowing why would benefit you, but for me, please know that your sharing, while beneficial to you, has served others as well.

BTW, don't stop now.

God bless,
PM

t&l, I should tell you too, since I've been reading for awhile. I rarely visit this forum anymore, but for some reason, I stopped by about a week ago and something drew me to your thread. I read it all and now return daily for updates. Your story is inspirational and your writing style is clever and entertaining. Thank you and please continue. Even though you don't always get responses, outside of family members, doesn't mean you're alone - check out the number of views!

BTW, I think we're almost neighbors. Well, not quite, but I'm in central CA foothills... is that close?

My goodness. You're all so kind in your encouragement. I'm semi-speechless. Thank you very much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'll get back here in the next day or so and answer you, but tonight has been a work night, not just an employment one. I have to leave here before the shift is over to meet Neaksis @ 0630 along the freeway so we can go to Stanford Children's Hospital and take her adopted DS#1 for his yearly post-op follow-up. come back home, take a nap and be to work early for an interview, then work all night again. I earn my hypertension, thank you very much! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> So I'll get back soon, but right now (as I was happily chatting away here) my pt. has decided she wants to be medicated. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> How thoughtless of her to put her creature comforts ahead of MY important internet communications! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

t&l