I don't remember what we visited about. My bad memory for that sort of stuff is, I think, God's gift to me to keep me from unhealthy brooding on the past, in the same way that my shape is His gift to me to keep me from immodest attention-seeking! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Very effective, too, I might add. I was able to talk to our friend in prison (let's call him, Kewpie) that afternoon, and to explain to him how MS had just showed up and that I wanted to stay another day and visit him, if Kewpie didn't mind us skipping the trip to the prison. He told me, "You're always doing things for everybody else, Susan. It's time you did something for yourself. I'll be out in a couple of months, and I'll see you all then. Don't worry, we'll have plenty of time to visit." Just typing those words brings tears to my eyes, because Kewpie was dead before any of us ever got to see him again, and we never visited him as we'd promised. Not only didn't "we have all the time in the world," but even though no one knew it, we really didn't have any time at all. It has been 2-1/2 years since this happened and I still feel such regret and grief that I chose to stay and visit MS instead of keeping my promise. The one time in years I deliberately chose to do my own thing at someone else's expense, even though it was with his cooperation and permission, and look what happened. How long do you want to bet it will be before I pull a stunt like that again? I didn't know. I had no idea. I never dreamed. And I sacrificed a lonely family friend's dearest wish on the altar of my own inclinations. I am SO sorry. I will always be sorry. And I can't even tell him so, because it's too late. OK, we can talk about Kewpie later, if anybody's curious, but I've got to quit now or I'll be returning from my break with red eyes and shining nose, and no explanation that I care to give!

Neak, her kids, and I spent some of the evening at EsWa's house visiting with MS. Even though he'd driven 1,900+ miles to see us, he didn't want to continue chatting during milking since it would involve being in the barn <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> so we went without him to visit the cows. We took him out to breakfast the next morning, and it was so interesting to watch the kids interact with him. Pwitty Pwintheth sat on his knee and was charming. I remember thinking at the time that HP would probably take much less offense at me sitting there with MS than he would with his very own grandchild sitting there ON him. Of course, if I'd been sitting ON him, I suppose there would've been sufficient offense to go around! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> In one way it was sad to me, because I think it's too bad he doesn't have children and grandchildren of his own, given his obvious enjoyment of mine. But on the other hand, especially on difficult and complex days, I have to occasionally envy him the simplicity of the life he has chosen for himself!!

Since that time, I have had no unusual contact with him except for the yearly (or so) letters I send to everybody. I also sent about 7 people Neak's upcoming book as she wrote it, and he was one of them. He finally wrote back sometime this year, mainly to her, and told her how much he'd enjoyed the book. So when her first book was published she sent him an authographed copy and thanked him for his kind words. Her own dad has never read her book (either of them, actually), ironically enough, so I think MS's reading and enjoyment of her handiwork had more weight in these circumstances than it would've had otherwise.

I've got to go. Break's over. I'm surprised somebody hasn't hunted me down already. Maybe I can finish up before I go to bed, and then I can tackle the lessons first, and finally answer Pep's question as to what I'm like today...although how many questions could people possibly have left, anyway, after what you've heard?

t&l

Yes t&l,

I want to eventually hear the story of Kewpie.

I do hope you have/will forgive yourself for not seeing him. He's forgiven you & understands.

I can't guarantee that I'll never see MS again. When my dad dies, both of my parents will be buried there, and I will go back to my cousin's whenever I can, which won't be often, I know, to visit their graves. How could I tell in advance if such a visit might coincide with one of his trips home, too? I do know that it won't be at my arranging. If I knew ahead of time that either he and I were dying (we ARE both 57, after all, and life IS eventually 100% fatal), I would attempt to initiate the chance to say goodbye, if I could. But beyond that, what do I have to say to him, or he to me? I know that whatever "type" of love he still has for me, it was enough to make it worth it to him to travel almost 4000 miles (round trip) to visit for a single day. I don't really need to know more about how he feels about me than that, don't you think? He knows that I have always loved him, and will always love him from a distance, and keep him ever in my prayers. But we have each chosen our own path in life, separate as well as different from each other, and, whether or not we sometimes wish we'd put our roots down somewhere else (a different flower pot, perhaps?), we're attempting to bloom both faithfully and well where we have planted ourselves, even if the soil in at least one pot turned to be slightly more acid than anticipated. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I would be offended if he suggested anything else, because of what it would say he thought about me. And in my mind, he would be demeaned and my respect for him would be diminished if he ever did suggest something illicit. When I saw him 9 yrs. ago for the first time in all those decades, I came back to work to find the nurses all eager to find out if he'd been there, and once they found out he had been there, if we'd slept together. How insulting is that?! I hope that my indignant hedgehog imitation doesn't seem too hypocritical, coming, as it does, from the, um, anticpator-of-widowhood <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> you've already met...but we're at the END of the Saga now, not at the beginning, and if nothing had changed in all those years, there would've been absolutely no reason to tell the story, would there?

Before I go to bed, leaving any loose ends for later, I want to leave you with the words of this song, which I'd never heard before I took that trip back to Chattanooga 4 yrs. ago, and bought the CD when I attended the concert in Branson, MO.It's a song I listened to over and over as I cried my way through the 13 hrs. of driving to Chicago. It describes poetically pretty much where my head has come to be in this whole thing, and where I hope it stays, too. I can live with this attitude towards MS and my memories...somewhat melancholy, but both enduring and precious; painful, but like an old scar that aches sometimes instead of a fresh stab to the heart where the pain is sharp and shearing, and unbearably intense. It's OK to be me, I think. Although getting old is only good when compared to the alternative! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />



Sometimes it doesn't seem far--the distance for you and for me--
Where we are going--from where we have gone--to where we will finally be...

Still sometimes it seems like our yesterdays and former ways are millions of light years from here;
Even the road less traveled, to weary-worn eyes, is not that clear.
Yet here we are, together again; I'm sure that we can make it the rest of the road...
As friends.

And please let me express, with life still in me,
I'm proud that we were, and we will forever be.
You never need to live with worry or care;
Whatever you may lack, I'll always be right there.

It doesn't feel very far--the distance from here to the end...
We will be making our way on the rest of the road...
As friends. As friends.

There's another song I like, especially the chorus. It goes like this:

I hear the music from across the way,
Across the bridges of my mind.
I lift the misty shades of yesterday,
To catch the dreams I left behind.

Well, we didn't exactly "catch" them, did we? But we lifted those misty shades with a vengeance, at least, and batted the dreams about a bit, if nothing else!! And in the process, I've been benefited, and I hope you have, too--and that you'll stick around just a bit longer for the "Wisdom" of OtherSusan the Stupid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Doesn't THAT sound attractive and worthwhile? I thought so, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Thank you, CSue, you're very kind to say so.

t&l

I like the ending <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

When are you going to start with kewpie's story?

t&l,

I may open this debate to the general population, but since this thread is what triggered the issue for me, let me test drive it here?

The way you write about MS, you love him in a sense, and in his own way he loves you too. Here's where I may get grief from others, but as a former BS, I have the right to ask...

"How can love be wrong?" It would be WRONG to have acted on your loving feelings with MS, while married to HP.

In my case the OW really did love my husband....she shouldn't have acted on those feelings by having the affair...but was her love wrong? I don't think so...brb

Sorry my son arrived home from school! He likes to tell me what happened right away!

Anyway, my husband did not love the OW; he used her - but she did love him and he knew it which is why he chose her! Yuck!

She had been a friend of his for 22 years, and actually knew him before we met. He told me after the affair ended that he knew they "connected" right from the beginning; and when he was shopping for an affair partner she came to mind right away.

So I asked him earlier today about how I felt that "Love can't be wrong", to see what he said. He started by reminding me how sorry he was about the affair and how he regrets the enormous pain he put me through, then went on to say that no, he didn't think Love could be wrong.

It was wrong for OW to act on that love. She could have loved him from a distance like you love MS.

Oh, goody, I love giving opinions.

JMO, but I really don't think your OW, "my" OW, or any OP at all feels true love, ever, for the spouse involved in the A. Love is unselfish, pure, and holy. Affairs are evil, and (IMO) there is no way at-tall they are ever just an inappropriate expression of true love. Even if there might have been true love at the beginning, and this is arguable, the A would pollute that beyond recognition, and it could never ever ever be purified again this side of eternity.

I think that it is academic to debate whether they are "truly" in love. In most cases they think they really love each other whether they do or not. They love each other with the kind of love that the kids' mom has for her progeny. As shallow and unworthy as it is, she believes it is the real deal, and you could never convince her otherwise. So we can all sit around saying how it isn't real love, but that won't change how they percieve it. They will never be able to tell the difference until they experience the genuine article and can compare it with the counterfeit (if that ever happens). That said, I don't think your OW really loved AJ.

This wasn't the first Life Lesson on my list, but let me take a brief whack at it before I move onto Neak's book, which I am DETERMINED to finish editing within the next week or so. That way, if it's not ready for printing and sale by Christmas, it won't be MY fault! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

DISCLAIMER: All Life Lessons are coming, unapologetically, from a Bible-based perspective, as I understand it today. Nobody else has to agree with my conclusions, and I have no intent to stir up controversy with anyone having a different point of view...but if I'm going to tell you what I've learned, I don't really see any other way to do it except to say I believe the Bible is true and that there are standards of behavior outside my own inclination, and superior to my own level of performance. The fact that any one of us doesn't always live up to what we believe in our heads, or desire to be in our hearts, may be less (as far as I'm concerned) an indication of hypocrisy than it is proof of our humanity and natural susceptibility to sin.

I think the problem with love is that too many people are confused about its definition, thinking that love is a feeling we possess, instead of what it really is...a principle of action. If love is an emotion, a feeling that sweeps over one, then only when I feel love do I have love, and when the feeling goes (which it can do--there's no doubt about that), love is gone, too and I need to go out and try to replicate that sensation so I can find "love" again.

Not what the Bible teaches. The Bible says, "God IS love." So our true definition of love becomes what God is like. And that would be? God loved us while we were His enemies, giving His Son to save a world which had rebelled against Him, and people who would slay the very One who had come to redeem them. That kind of love is NOT based on feeling, since I'm sure it didn't feel good to God to watch Jesus die on the cross, and it certainly didn't feel good to Jesus to be there. But love for Them was not an simply an emotion, but it was what They did, how They acted, regardless of how They felt.

Put that attitude into this situation, and what do I get? I get the understanding that my love for HP is measured, not by how I feel (which, quite frankly, on some days is neither warm NOR fuzzy), but by how I act. I can at least strive every day to perform loving deeds, regardless of whether or not I have an emotional feeling to go along with it. (Occasional glitches in this noble aim are not unheard -of! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) In doing this, I wish honor my Father in heaven, who sends the sun and rain on the just and the unjust, and gives life to both His enemies and His own children. For HP, and for MS, love must be shown by a sincere desire and effort to do nothing that will harm them, hurt them, or tempt their feet to slip from the Christian path in which they both have chosen to walk. Especially for MS, for me to go to him and say, "I love you. Come away with me," would instantly reveal the love I profess for him to be a lie, and everything I might subsequently try to build on that lie would be "anchored" in shifting sand, unreliable, and doomed to fail.

If more people--and this would include the WSs discussed on this board--saw love the Bible way, there would be a LOT less pain being dished out in this old world. Neither throbbing erections nor tingling privates would be mistaken for love (Come here, darling, feel my "love" for you...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />), because love would be shown to others as God shows it to us--by kindness, patience, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, honesty, etc., and the sincere determination not to cause anyone any harm or pain. I am convinced that all affairs have selfishness as their root cause. The plants themselves may have some variation. Not all the flowers may be the same color, or size, or shape. The leaves may not all be alike. But dig down deeper, and you will ALWAYS find the same root..."I want (fill in the blank) and what I want is more important than anybody or anything else."

And so it becomes acceptable to a WS, however "sorry" they may claim to be about how his or her BS/children/parents/family is hurting, to be willing to inflict any pain, do any damage, cause any grief, produce any harm necessary in order to "feel" love again, and recapture an emotion they think they've lost. If you really "love" someone, you won't deliberately hurt them, because the principle of love--revealed in the things you do--will stop you before you can do irreparable damage to who-knows-how-many lives, even if the feeling of love you once knew is temporarily in absentia.

If I had time to read this over, and think about it some more, I'm sure I could refine it so I said it better--but I've got to do other things, and can't tweak it right now. But this should be enough to give you a general idea of what I think. I guess, boiled down to its essence, I'd have to say this: If you think love is an emotion, a feeling that can come and go, you can easily find yourself tempted into "love" that is wrong. If you accept love as a principle of action, to be displayed (regardless of emotion) by treating others as God and Jesus have treated you, I'd pretty much have to believe it's impossible for love to ever be "wrong."

So I can love HP and MS simultaneously, and within these parameters, without conflict or guilt...although not always without discomfort! Losing the discomfort will be one of the things that will make heaven such a wonderful place. But only one! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

t&l

I see for myself 2 things yet to do here. (1) Run through the Life Lessons, in other words, put all the Wisdom of OtherSusan the Stupid in a thimble (which will be big enough to hold it, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />) and offer it up for discussion; and, (2) answer Pep's long-ago question, "What are you like today?" although I would think that has pretty much been answered already.

After that, there are unlimited directions towards which this thread could wander, if it doesn't find itself in a dead end somewhere! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

t&l

WOW!

You are an incredibly intelligent person! You have finally given me a definition of love I can live with. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've really enjoyed the first part of this thread and I'm looking forward to the next part. I can't contribute much, but I am always listening and learning.

Thank you very much for teaching us all these lessons.

T&L -

I agree COMPLETELY. Being OLD, I have felt "in love" several times, with completely inappropriate people. Only the grace of God kept me from declaring my feelings, or acting on them.

I have a very idealist idea of love. It does not permit a "love" that begins by rolling over others like a tank, tearing lives apart, and leaving bodies strewn.

I would rather love quietly in my heart.

Wow t&l,

That was truly beautiful....give me some time to digest this, hope you don't mind discussing on your thread...I don't want to interrupt the saga wrap up...but what you said deserves more consideration~ Bless you!

T&L,

What does the phrase "Forsaking all others" mean to you?

-AD

How can I take credit for intelligence when all I've done is to (FINALLY <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />) have the good sense to take the good advice of the Good Book, and incoporate it into my life? Still, thank you for what you said. God is very wise, isn't he? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

t&l

No, Believer, we're not OLD. We're seasoned, mature, in full bloom, experienced, fully-fledged, ripened...and all the other stuff like that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> It is often an unfortunate conceit of the young to feel that they invented love, sex, play, life, while the rest of us of more-advanced years are mere withered prunes, dessicated relics of the Jurassic era, strewing the otherwise beautiful world of youth with our fossilized remains. I didn't exactly have that idea when the sun rose 9 years ago, but it was a light dawning for me to hear these 4 people in their 80s remember their youth with such clarity and vigor, regardless of the condition of their physical bodies. I always thought it was a bit silly for a couple of 90-yr. olds to get married, like you read about every now and again. Now I realize that their hearts are still young, and they crave companionship and love just the same as they did when their bodies were young, too. If anything, I think love and attention and "belonging" tend to become more important to us, and not less, as we age. And that idealism about love, instead of being lost in grown-up cynicism, can shine even brighter, and be more precious when it is found, than it would've been when we were in our teens and twenties and didn't have a clue.

I know I said awhile back that I'm much too cynical about men to have another relationship, but I don't see these two views as as necessarily being in conflict. I believe in the theory; in fact, I'm still very idealistic about the possibilities to be found in a relationship between two people who love each other. I just can't see myself putting it into practice, and starting all over again with anybody. Ever. Too much work. Takes too much effort. I'm busily employed, too. You might have heard that mentioned! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But I will always applaud it every time I see it happen to somebody else.

Keep your idealism about love. I'm glad to hear that your experiences haven't ground it out of you, and you should be proud of yourself for coming through all this with such a good attitude still intact. Those silly 18-yr. olds don't have anything on us! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Are you trying to trick me into condemning myself? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Or are you talking about your future relationship with your XW, or with (potentially) somebody else? I'll try to come back later tonight and answer this, but if you're still online it would help to know which question I'm supposed to be answering... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Hey, it's a simple question. I'm not trying to trick you - just want to know what it means to you.

Yes, my question was more about you than about me, since actually, in my wedding, this phrase did not occur - since I wrote my own vows (with, what I though was my wife-to-be's agreement and approval, but now she scoffs at them). In my wedding, instead of this phrase, I said

"I commit my life to you, above every other eartly obligation, duty or interest;
above country, family or friend,
above property, work, pleasure or comfort".

Perhaps I should scoff at it myself. I would have been better served by the traditional line.

And then, I said
"I will never abandon nor forsake you, so long as we both shall live."

Oh, and the word "irrevocably" was in there too - at the beginning. <sigh>

That word haunts me. My entire vows haunt me. I've still got a tattered copy that I carry in my wallet.

BTW, I read all that you posted - except the final words of wisdom - because I
was already overwhelmed with it all and need to read it carefully.

I'm going to sleep now. I'll check in again tomorrow.

-AD