OK, get some sleep. I'll try to post before you wake up, not that I think you can't survive without an immediate answer! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I guess I'm just paranoid because I've lo-o-o-o-o-ong expected I might get some flack at this point in the Saga from irate BSs, who felt that my last 2 contacts with MS were violations of my marital vows, or betrayals of HP. I mean, once I got smacked in the beginning, long before I ever got to anything I thought might stir up anybody's wrath, I've spent a lot of time being nervous about telling the ending. It's not that I expected blessings and sighs of approval for the inmate/murder plotting chapter, but it had all happened so long ago I didn't expect it to arouse any current emotion in anybody and was surprised when it did. So forgive me if I'm a bit, well, twitchy, right about now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> And, no, if you joined the list of feminine hygiene products late in the Sad Saga of OtherSusan the Stupid, and haven't read that part, you're going to have to go back and find it yourself. I am definitely not telling it again. Once was plenty. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Possibly even more.

t&l

P.S. Here's hoping that, since you're exhausted tonight, at least your insomnia won't be giving you a lot of trouble! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

P.S. Whatever happened to SS? Did he drop off the face of the map, or what? Hello, hello, SS, wherever you are! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

t&l

I think SS is on vacation with his 8 kids and all - but getting a couple of days away with his wife in the midst of it somehow.

I'm not asleep yet.

T&L, what if you do get some flack? You're the matriarch of a clan after all. What does it matter what those people think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

-AD

The nerve of that man, trying to have a real life without us! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


So I noticed. Tsk, tsk.


You have highlighted an odd contradiction in my character. How'd you know about it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I crave approval, but function perfectly well without it. I am uncomfortable with being disapproved of, but can ignore it when I don't think I deserve it when it happens, and not let it affect anything I do that I feel is important. I try to avoid raising hackles, or getting into trouble, but am a tenacious opponent if backed into a corner. Conflict avoidance with a bad attitude. My personal favorite! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> In fact, I will do almost anything to avoid a fight, but if precipitated into battle, I enter it with the firm intention to be the one left standing when it's over, if there's only one! I want to be accepted, but am often a loner. OK, I need to quit this. The longer I go, and the more I say, the weirder I sound...even to myself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I guess the bottom line is that I care because I can't help myself (<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />), but if I get flack it won't make me change my mind or what I do (if I think I'm right). I obsess WAY too much, when you come right down to it, but usually privately and internally, and in a much less-public forum. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

t&l

I'm not even going to try and deal with what way he does, or might possibly, love me. I don't think those details are any of my business at this point. But from my point of view, the "sense" in which you say I love him primarily deals with, I think, feelings and emotions...nostalgia, loss, regret for missed opportunities, sorrow for what we wanted with each other but never will have...what-might-have-beens, I guess we can call them.And they are certainly present in my heart. If my love for him were defined, and confined, by those aspects, what a gloomy ending to the Saga this would be. Perhaps even unbearable, especially as I continue to grow older, and leave the optimistic dreams and aspirations of youth farther and farther behind. But love-as-a-principle-of-action, in my case its only possible means of demonstration (long-distance) being my faithful remembering him in prayer, gives me boundless hope for an eternal, and eternally-bright, future.

Last night on my way to work, the sun was setting in such a way that from the base of a bright cloud, golden rays of light shone down towards earth, much in the fashion that you see in paintings of the Second Coming. As I drove directly towards the cloud, and the brightness, a song came on the CD to which I was listening, and I heard these words:

There's a place for us; Somewhere, a place for us...
Peace and quiet, and open air, wait for us...somewhere.
There's a time for us; Some day, a time for us...
Time together, with time to spare, time to learn, time to care...Somewhere.

Those of you who share my era (Cretaceous) will probably recognize the song. But it made me cry because there ahead of me were "the gleams of the golden morning" (OK, technically, golden sunset--don't mess with my metaphor! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />). I was headed straight for them, and I rejoiced (in a weepy, sorrowful way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) that there is a place for us. It's just not here. There's a time for us, but not now. In heaven, we will love God supremely, and each other as He loves us. What's not to look forward to? If we all make it there, we'll be young and beautiful again (and HP will be happy all the time!), and have forever to be that way, too. I don't need anything else, although I must confess I do wish things would hurry up a bit. I'm so tired. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

t&l

I've been thinking about this some more, and while I truly believe it, if everybody had always looked at love this way, how much different today our legacy of songs, poetry, etc., would be! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

What's Principle of Action (POA) Got to Do With It?

How do I POA you? Let me count the ways.

POA Makes the World Go 'Round

I Want Your POA

You've Lost That POA Feeling

You Are My POA and My Life

I Honestly POA You

POA You, POA You, POA You

Not quite so catchy, are they? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Who can think of more snippets? I can't, but it's 2AM, and my tide has ebbed. At any rate, I submit that we'd all be better off, regardless of the impact on "the arts," if so many people didn't think of love as an itch to be scratched, a hole to be filled (not THAT hole <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />--I meant the one in the heart!), a need to be met, a desire to be satisfied. I'm not trying to deny the reality of emotions, or say that it's wrong to have them. But when my own emotions threaten to swamp my boat (dinky, leaking, adrift <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />) on a raging sea of feeling, I often have to do some stringent reminding of myself that how I feel is not the guage of what is right, nor the measure of the validity of my experience. That's hard. I'll be the first to admit it. But when it works, it gives me a freedom that I didn't have before, and an ability to remain on an even keel in some pretty turbulent waves. And, as I said before, when I can't hang on any longer, God hangs onto me. I imagine it as being something like I held onto Neak's DS#1 when he was 3 or 4 and we visited Niagara Falls. V-E-R-Y firmly!

t&l

I'm on break so decided to answer this even though I don't have a Bible with me at work to give you references. You are a Christian yourself, so I'm sure you've heard them already. In fact, it was basically this very question, if I remember correctly, that led me to post on your own thread for the very first time. If I remember correctly, I also failed to convince you the first time around, too. I'm not sure I feel any more persuasive a month or two down the pike, either! But I can never resist a question...

You were troubled (correct me if I'm wrong) because you'd made these irrevocable promises, to be kept as long as you lived, and what were you going to do now that you were getting divorced? As a Christian, you know that no less of an authority than Jesus Himself stated that when adultery had occurred, the betrayed spouse was released from his/her vows and had the right to remarry. I don't know anywhere higher I could go than that, for reassurance that what your XW has done has freed you from the promises you made to her to "forsake all others" for the rest of your life. Didn't you forsake others while you were married? As in, leave them alone, with your mind, your heart, your body? Then you should be confident that you have kept your marriage promise to her in every way that matters, until she herself rendered it null and void in the eyes of God.

It's true that the Bible doesn't mandate divorce after adultery, but merely presents it as an option. If your wife had wanted to remain married, to rebuild, to restore, I think that, with the Biblical example of Hosea the prophet before us, you would've been obligated to at least try. But she didn't want that. (I know, she wanted your money, but that's different, and it doesn't count!) She wanted out. And Jesus says that this has released you from your vows, and you are free in His sight to marry again if you choose. Whether or not you do is up to you.

As far as your future dealings with her, I think that even now you can still be faithful to your promise to care for her for the rest of her life, in a neutral and unemotional fashion, by doing what you can to help her and your DD. You have the opportunity to model--for a woman who has a hard time accepting God-as-love, or God, or love, for that matter--the love of God as channeled through a human being. I'm not suggesting that you get sucked into her drama...and there's plenty enough of that. I'm suggesting that if you help where you can, without expecting anything in return (which is probably best, since that's likely to be what you get! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />); if you can remain calm in the face of either excitability or hostility; if you can avoid justified retaliation in the face of unwarranted aggression...then you have the chance to show her, in your human face, the face of a heavenly Father who loves His enemies, and who loves her, too.

I realize this is a tall order, and you're likely to have some slip-ups along the way. (Listen to the voice of experience, here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />) But by taking as much as you can of the emotional upheaval out of it for yourself, and loving her by what you do, not by how you feel, you will find (with time, if not immediately) that much of the "sting" goes away and you can deal with some truly difficult situations without losing your own mental footing or emotional equilibrium. You will need to do this for your DD's sake, anyway. Start as you mean to go on. It's easier than trying to change things later.

I believe with all my heart that if you do this, you will have kept every vow you ever made to her, without a blot on your conscience that you need to worry that God will see, and of which He will disapprove. Chin up, AD. If nothing else, it gives the Devil something to aim at!

t&l

t&l's message board:

one of the nurses from work is trying to get a hold of you. call me.

t&l,

This thread has so much MEAT in it, I'm overwhelmed!!!!

But it's a good overwhelmed, know what I mean??? I've been thinking non-stop about your definition of love, and came here this morning to see it fleshed-out even more.

My apologies to Neaksis the MB vegeterian for all these meat references....my husband is vegeterian too, except he eats fish - so maybe he's not a real vegeterian?

Honestly, t&l - if more people thought like you do about love the world would DEFINITELY be a better place. And actually just knowing you feel about love the way you do gives me hope.

Unfortunately possibly for this thread, it brings to mind another story I want to run past you for your thoughts. (feel free to postpone your answer - if it's time for more of the Saga - which should take priority). But I have to tell you this story NOW....so I can get it out of my head.

I'll put it in a new post, because mine seem to be disappearing lately!

I know what she wants. We had a birth injury within the last 24 hrs. and she wants to compare notes. I hope they're not looking for a goat. (As in scape.) That would be ba-a-a-a-a-a-a-d for somebody. Actually, it looks like the baby will be fine in the long run, but the immediate fallout isn't happy, even though, according to the literature, nobody did anything wrong and this can occur spontaneously during labor. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'm tired of being a nurse. I asked one of the other nurses, who would also be involved in testifying if this ever went to court, what we could do that would earn us a lot of money without having to be in close, dangerous contact with other people. Her idea? Hit men, because "you don't need to get close to them to do your job, and let's face it, there are a lot of people who don't need to be here." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I think maybe her attitude was a bit jaundiced this morning, perhaps? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Wonder why?

t&l

Ok.....

A few years ago, we decided to landscape our previously
un-landscaped yard. And since I live in a high mountain desert - unlandscaped means nothing grows without human intervention if it doesn't have a sticker attached to it.

So I was looking forward to some grass, bushes, shrubs amidst the gravel, rocks which are common in yards around here. We needed irrigation, new fencing, and sidewalks. It was a major project with much of the $$ we had to spend used for the underground work you couldn't see/enjoy.

Well, we got references, and made a decision regarding the contractor. The guy we chose was the business owner of the landscaping business. So he was involved in every aspect of the project. It became clear to me during the interview process that while I was interviewing him - he was interviewing me. I realized that not only was I in the position to pick him - he would be deciding whether or not he would chose me for a customer....very interesting situation I thought!

While I am someone who feels it is my responsibility to do God's work everyday as I come across the opportunities - I usually am subtle about it. So his portion of "interviewing" me included his story of being a "Born Again Christian".

This surprised me, however I wasn't uncomfortable with the discussion. I was raised Presbyterian which isn't a Born Again Religion - but I grew up in a part of the country (The bible belt)- so I'm not unfamiliar with the concept. In my belief system Born Again isn't a requirement for me to have a successful relationship with God.

So, in the course of his interviewing me - I thought that it could cost me his services but I had to be truthful. I told him that I believe that there are many pathways to God, different people hear different messages, and while I wasn't Born Again, I was fine that he was.

So he went into the "trying to convert me" mode. Which is really Ok too - I've certainly had many of these discussions with people who have different religious beliefs than me. We went around and around and around...

When having these types of discussions with people trying to convert...I finally get to the point where I need to wrap up the discussion, because they don't want to stop until I'm converted. So I told him that I was truly at peace with my own religious beliefs, and was very comfortable with the fact that he wasn't at peace unless he converted me! Basically saying to him I was comfortable with him being uncomfortable with me. That's usually the last word on the subject, I have found.

So in spite of not converting me - we agreed to do business together. I hired his company and because of the size of the project we ended up working together about 6 months by the time we made it through the planning and execution stages of the project.

As you can image, we worked closely together during this time. Often he would bring up his religious beliefs intertwined with discussion of drip irrigation, plant & rock selection. We agreed on some issues - but not on plenty! So in a sense we had a bit of a contentious relationship. I was looking forward to the conclusion of the project....

Imagine my surprise one day, when he told me he LOVED me!!! Sheesh.....I was soooo stunned, I can't begin to tell you. He loved ME???? He didn't KNOW me.... He was married & it was approximately a year after my husband affair and my finding of MB.... I did not see this coming.

In addition, he made a couple of inappropriate grabs for me, which was VERY uncomfortable. My response to him, when I picked my chin off the newly landscaped ground was he needed marriage help. I told him about MB and recommended he check it out here.

So my point is.........here's this guy who isn't subtle at all about his belief's, and chooses his customers based on their religious beliefs (I don't think he would do work for anyone who wasn't a Christian), and he PULLS THIS???

How does someone reconcile that????

t&l, you can probably see why your definition of love brought this story to my mind. IF he believed as you do, he would NEVER have gotten himself into this situation. I have to tell you, I lost respect for him as a result.

Fortunately I don't see him very often now - just maintenance stuff a couple times a year.

End of story!

So what kind of vegetarian eats fish? An ovo-lacto-fisho-vegetarian, perhaps? I'm always amazed at people who tell me, "Oh, yes I'm a vegetarian. I only eat chicken and fish." And those vegetables would be, exactly? My position is, if it had a mother or a face, or could move about under its own steam, it's not a vegetable! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

All of the family is vegetarian. Even AJ became one, although I wouldn't bet my life that he never, ever sneaks a carcass past his lips, at least once in awhile. However, we're not delicate vegetarians. It's a carnivore's world, after all, and we just do our thing and other people do theirs. The only time I get belligerent about it is when meat-eaters make fun of my food, at which times I've been know to express my surprise that someone who willingly makes his stomach the cemetery for the decaying corpses of dead animials would have anything to say about somebody eating vegetables, for Pete's sake! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> And I did get up last night and leave the front desk for awhile until they were done eating their prey from the Taco Truck. Sorry, Believer, but the doctor had ordered lengua, and it smelled gross, even with peppers and onions all over it. But usually I don't care, and certainly not about metaphorical meat!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

t&l

P.S. What's your story? I'll look later today, but for now I am being seduced by someone much more alluring and irresistible... I must succumb to his charms, for the Sandman and I are about to make some beautiful music together! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I hope.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Apparently we were posting at the same time. Neaksis asked me why I didn't read your letter before I wrote, and I said it was because your post wasn't there until I clicked mine, and "returned to the forum." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Yea,

My husband says.........no land or air meat!!

Go get some rest.....replying can wait!

t&licon = <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Maybe I should have communicated better....it's not that you REMIND me of <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> ; it's just that your use of it, is better than anyone elses!

Whew! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

There, did I clear that up? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Love the entertainment T&L , neak & neaksis and Csue ..... as usual I'm thinking WAAAAAAAY too much for 1.50am in the morning but blame that one on my sisters and their coffee and cake routine for today!!

Mums rocked MIKEY TO SLEEP ...one hand clapping and has dosed off herslef now .... Dad rang earlier and said hew as going fishing with his Vietnam mates ..so thats them for 3 or 4 days ..fishing ....sure... few slabs of beer at a beach up the coast more like it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Well today we have been talking about DD’s wedding at some time in the future, she’s not sure when yet ..wants to finish Uni unless things hot up in the war.
So we discussed what type of wedding? Military she says…

You see they tell you that the biggest differences between a military wedding and a civilian wedding are the invitations, the uniformed attendants & the couple, and the arch of swords or sabers at the end of the service. Everything else is the same – they say.
Mmmmmmmm okaaay <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The wording on the invitation needs to be written precisely according to standard etiquette and include your branch of service and your rank. Oh and be sure to check with your bridal consultant or the stationery store expert for the correct military wording on your invitations …WHY you ask???? . There are many different correct forms to use. YOU MUST by law use the correct form.
See where I’m going yet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Dress can be your dress uniform or full-dress uniform, including medals or merely ribbons. Badges may also be worn.
Men or women in uniform do not wear or hold flowers, corsages, or boutonnieres. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
If your groom is a member or graduate of one of the academies, you may display its flag and motto in the church along with the National flag."
Oh yes so Jonnie’s will be ‘I volunteer for ANYTHING” … saaaay I’ve heard THAT one before!!! Just can’t think of it right now though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

May is used as the operative word as in legal use of may which is MUST!! , 'Can be' is also interpreted as ‘may’ ,,and we’ve been through that one.

Oh Mum don’t be so pessimistic she says!! What, me ???????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Then the vows….. Vows may – there’s that word again – relate to a religious ceremony however MUST include reference to loyalty to the Crown & Country.
So with that in mind I have altered my own for an example for her ….
”AW do you take A2 as your etc etc

to live in sub standard housing for 15 years
move your children – God willing, this is the religious reference - every two years
arrange for new schooling in this process
arrange for new health care because while we’d like to look after you we don’t have a hospital in YOUR posting area.
live alone for periods of 12 to 18 months without ANY contact from your H
to quietly watch as your H in a PTSD episode puts a fist through a door or throws a TV through double glass sliding doors
at these times DO NOT bring your H breakfast in bed , the wall behind you is quite solid and your impact on hitting it can leave marks you will be charged to repair
have your H miss your children’s birth if circumstances can be worked that way at all – sorry lov invading the Solomon Islands today you start without me

You end that with a cheerful and resounding “I shall” .

Snickers from the sisters and a ‘Oh mum stop being so cynical” <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh but it doesn’t stop there my girl..oh goodness no……..

Its followed by A2’s part ..“take AW as your wife forsaking all others excepting those under section 99-3 sub -section A of the Military code of Behavior and the National Security Act of 1975, revised ad infinitum , and requirements as such and aforementioned as determined by lawful instructions for Queen and Country ……

“Then why are you and Dad still married if its been so hard??” Guess its love honey, we all do a lot for that. “Mum sometimes you are VERY strange” <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Do tell, must run in the family, last I heard you SWORE you would never go out with a Army man let alone MARRY one like you did mum !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

"oh" she says " I did sort of get that one wrong didn't I"

"OMG I'm turning into you Mum!!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Bringing up children never USED to be so hard until they became adults!!
OMG NOW I sound like my Mum!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I'm tired of being a nurse.

It may be temporary, but I worry about the hours you work. Three years is STILL a long time.

I'm only half teasing. Maybe 1/3.

SS

from AW -
"OMG I'm turning into you Mum!!"

It happens all the time, and often it's a good thing.
You are well? I mean, I know you don't get enough sleep, but other than that you are well?

SS