2Long -

I do not wish to be one to encourage you to do anything drastic if you are not ready...but I've BTDT and have a whole wardrobe to go with the T-shirt.

You WW has absolutely, positively no reason at all to change. I can read that between the lines here, and I know she is much more perceptive of your thoughts than I (we) are here. And...if she senses that you are going to "tip toe" into dangerous waters then get back out of the pool if the waters too cold...well, she will wait until the cows come home (remember, I'm in GA) before she makes any decisions.

I suggest the jumping off the diving board approach to getting used to the chill of the water is much more effective for everyone. Is it still cold? You bet. But..after the initial shock (and goose bumps) you start to enjoy it and you find that you can actual still swim, something you had forgotten you could do.

I suggest you show her your very best swan dive....

Georgia

FGG:

That I intend 2 do.

I'm going 2 my Telescope thing over Mem weekend. The kids are planning on coming up for a day, and so was she. She can come or not, her choice. I'm still going.

Then, following weekend we're seeing Garrison Keeler at the Hollywood Bowl. DD bought all the tickets for us. I'm going 2 that, 2. She can go or not go, her choice.

Then, following week she's heading 2 her OOSP for 6 weeks. I was going 2 go for the first week. I can choose 2 go or not go, my choice. If she agrees 2 NC by then, I go. If not, I don't go. I'll burn my vacation somwhere else (maybe even at the same time).

We've already talked about the trades of keeping versus selling the house (really, selling, because she'd have 2 agree 2 my conditions in order 2 keep it - neither of us could buy the other out). I've thought about the impact on our family. I doubt she's considered it much (she even distanced herself from our kids all these years - I can see it, and why she did it, she can't). And I'm pretty sure she hasn't contemplated the prospect of telling them the truth about her machinations 2 keep the relationship alive. The truth will come out if we take any further steps that do NOT start with NC for life.

Nuke Rat Meat,
-ol' 2long

AMM: “Aphelion was suggesting that LTAs were a different type of affair situation, qualitatively and from the outset. I was challenging that, and suggesting that they had EVOLVED into a different situation -- either by circumstances (finding out very late) or the way they were handled (not drawing boundaries soon enough, which I suspect is more common)...

Of course, one could question how someone could miss a spouse's affair for years, so that it becomes an LTA, but I don't know your sitch and it's blood under the bridge at this point. Also, I just haven't "been there. You can only be responsible for acting on what you know, when you know it.”


A: Perhaps this is fodder for a separate thread. Hate to jack 2long’s. But let me try a SHORT attempt at an answer. Anyone interested might start such a thread, if they want. Believe me, this is something I have thought a lot about.

A phenomenological view might hold that LTAs are outliers in the statistics in the first place. So there must be something different about them. In my case, I can see several things that contributed to the L in LTA.

1. W is very intelligent. She planned and executed flawlessly. She kept her double life completely separate. She always had a good cover story with backup evidence. I rarely doubted her explanations for odd behavior or missing time. Generally, there was no obvious odd behavior or missing time. (W is a professional communicator, and very good at it. She was a spin Dr for a major political party before this current job. Give her enough time and she will convince you black is white.)

2. W and OM are executives in a large international corporation. They travel a lot. They conducted a significant part of the P in their A while on travel, including internationally. The A started in Asia, in fact.

Interesting ethical aside: I did not see A related expenses because the company paid for most of this LTA. Maybe as much as $100K over the life of the A. (Any stock holders want to complain?)

3. The apparent lack of passion in the A. As I wrote elsewhere, this A was not soul mate, not true everlasting love, not anything associated with wanting to spend quality time with someone. It was calculated and dispassionate. Oh, I saw some email expressing undying love. But even that read kind of clinical. They never wanted to run off together. They never did anything with wild abandon like you read all over this forum. Three were no plans for the future. On the whole they settled down into the equivalent of an old married couple within a year or so of the start. IMO this was a very boring A. Not like one I would have, that’s for sure. It was always just a low priority something on the side for him, and W accepted it as such.

In fact, the PA started within two days of them meeting for the first time. This was not a slow slide down the slippery slope of Not Just Friends into an EA. The sex became almost the only thing they had in common from the get-go. It’s all he wanted, for sure.

4. I met all her ENs. She says so, now. She did not complain or rock the boat in any way, not once. She acted like she was in love with me (more so or less so at various times) the entire A. This is the scary part, really. She had two separate lives with two personalities. I cannot stop wondering who she really is and how she could be so cool and calculating about it.

5. I found out the first time about 5 years into it. She was totally remorseful. She agreed to all reconciliation conditions and participated fully (I thought). I remember her crying real tears and saying she knew how much she hurt me and she would never do it again. She gave me access to email and cell phone. You name it, she did it right – on the surface. In reality, she was lying to everyone involved – MC, IC, me and even OM. Turns out she did not even tell him I knew. She went farther underground making it even harder to detect anything.

6. I love her, perhaps too much, and I am way too trusting. Err, I used to be. She’s always had me wrapped around her little finger. She could sweet talk me into anything at anytime, and if that didn’t work she knew exactly how much anger and threat to use. The latter no longer work. But the former still does. Before I read SAA and HNHN, I thought some Ms are just kind of one-sided. I accepted her as she was.

7. There are certain very critical personality traits/anomalies/childhood issues for both of them that contributed to this A and how it played out. But in the interest of privacy and POJA with W I will not discuss her here.

Dang, this is long, again. Please don’t beat me.

Aphelion:

By all means feel free 2 put that stuff in here! It's very appropriate.

Many of your points would also describe my sitch pretty well, particularly the fact that they never professed their love 2 one another (though my W repeatedly offered 2 give us up for him, he never responded) and acknowledged that neither one of them wanted 2 leave their spouses. 42nately or otherwise, Mrs Meat left him after fighting with him for several months after her d-day (4 months after mine). That should have woken him up, but instead it's made him available. Sure, maybe he really does have a GF now, and maybe he has 2uestioned why my W would risk losing her family just 2 keep working 2gether. But the fact that he keeps responding 2 her (or contacting her himself) shows he doesn't care all THAT much about the consequences she's facing by going this route.

I may be partly responsible, though. He must "know" by now that I won't just leave my W because they're still in contact because I haven't in 3.3 years since I found out.

...I don't think I could before now, but I sure can now. And I think that's a fundamental na2re of BSs dealing with LTAs. They take longer 2 recover.

Now, watching the reactions I get from my W, I see that, deep down, the fog is the fog is the fog, regardless of the length of the A. LTAs make pulling their heads out a lot harder for the WS having one, because of the attachment. Sure, Ap's W may not be "in love" with her OM, but she most definitely is attached (addicted) 2 him.

Morphine, anyone?

-ol' 2long

2LONG and APHELION:

Your WSes sound like cake-eaters to me. My FWH had a relatively long A. I think it was longer than 2 years. I think their A was emotional for a long time before it was physical. I think my FWH would have continued his A ad infinitum if I continued to accept life as it was. I think it would have been OK with him to have the two of us. It was not OK for me to share him. She wanted all of him too.

PLAN B was the answer in my case. I was moving on without him. He had her 24/7 and found that she could not meet his needs. He had to make a choice. Kicking and screaming, he was forced to make a choice.

He selfishly had what he thought was the best of both worlds for a long time.....

Meanwhile, I was lost in the clouds, in denial about where my H was and what he was doing.... I enabled the A for months and months and years and years.

Just my two cents. I am with you guys in having a LTM to a spouse who had a LTA....

mimi: "Your WSes sound like cake-eaters to me."

A: Of course they do. They are walking definitions of Cake Eaters. They turned Cake Eater into a proper noun.


2long: "LTAs make pulling their heads out a lot harder for the WS having one, because of the attachment. Sure, Ap's W may not be "in love" with her OM, but she most definitely is attached (addicted) 2 him."

A: That's two very good points. Cerri explained it to me but I forgot. Attachment is very strong in an LTA. And withdrawal seems to last forever.

I prefer an occasional 20 year old single malt Scotch, if it's all the same to you. Or a good cigar.

Well, maybe Mimi (as well as the rest of you) have a point. You've half convinced me.

The natural human inclination in our society is to want "all" of the marriage/affair mate. So most affairs are in flux, the person being "shared" is being pulled by both people, and one of them is going to "win" (in quotes because in many cases the WS is no prize). That's the reason I bailed when I did -- I could see that the thing was in free fall, and he wasn't going to stop till she had him 100 percent, and I came increasingly less convinced he was a prize worth having. Hence, Plan B.

Both Aphelion & 2Long had spouses who rather calculatedly planned a 2-way package to get their needs serviced at the expense of their declared mate.

But here's the half that's not convinced: I do think there are generally differences in the BS as well that go into the making of a LTA, as well as differences in the WS.

(Aphelion, I give up: I'm never going to convince you that I don't think your posts are too long.)

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than...


...but it's been a 23-yr long frontal lobotomy I was unwittingly subjected 2. 2k ol' 2 a LONG time 2 reroute them synapses so they'd make any sense at all...

Nuke Rat Meat,
-ol' 2long

AMM: "Aphelion, I give up: I'm never going to convince you that I don't think your posts are too long."

LOL, no - just too wordy...

2long,

The cabin offer in MT still stands. And there is a bottle of 30 yo Laphroaig next to the fireplace.

"And there is a bottle of 30 yo Laphroaig next to the fireplace."

How soon can I be there? Where's MT?

AMM: "But here's the half that's not convinced: I do think there are generally differences in the BS as well that go into the making of a LTA, as well as differences in the WS."

Not speaking for 2long, but I think you are probably right. But, from the inside looking out, I can't see it very well.

Part of this difference may be related to the fact that these LTAs tend to be in first/only marriages. I haven't been M'd before. I haven't had to D before. I haven't had much of anything relationship-wise except with W. I'm kind of new at this stuff. And I trusted her. I trusted her even after D-Day 1. Until now, I was not jaded in any way.

Raised a Catholic, still a practicing Catholic, I am married until death do us part...
And W said the same thing, even during her A. I think that biased me towards trusting my M to God and towards trusting her without verification.

Hindsight is 20-20.


Edited to add:

Also, the LTA was part of the M for so long it made everything normal. I mean, she was so good at this double life, everything was so ordinary, what was there to be suspicious about? As I wrote earlier, there were hidden barriers and a general lack of intimacy. But it had been like that for so long it felt normal. I just thought some Ms are unequal and I lived with it.

The real question is, why did I not have an A? I fit the profile of the EN missing spouse to a T.

I just remembered something.

We just sold a big, fat conversion van my dad had bought before he couldn't drive anymore. It only had a few K miles on it.

I considered keeping it. After all, my own van has 60K miles on it. The "new" one should last longer. But my van is smaller and gets 20mpg. This one got 10 in town.

I kept making noises like "it's 2 bad it wasn't one of the diesel vans that gets 30mpg", and voiced my thoughts that maybe I should sell both vans and buy one of the diesels...

This am, my W complained about me pointing them out on the highway on trips all the time. I've noticed she doesn't respond at all.

It's because she threatened 2 DV me 14 years ago (wish she had) if I bought a van I'd been wanting when we couldn't afford it (2 replace my VW bus with 400,000 miles on it). I was a fool, easy bait for a used car salesman, so I bought one.

She didn't DV me, but she helped me feel like a jerk for the 6 months I drove it around. I sold it and went back 2 the bus (which I still had), because I hated the feelings I was feeling (and our bitter arguments).

But they didn't stop then, they just became one of the initial excuses for not stopping her A.

A few years ago, before d-day, we sold the 4x4 she was driving that was the first new car we'd bought in 1990 (the year before the A). Without knowing for certain whether RM ever sat in it or not (he had 2 have, since they were sharing an office in grad school 2gether at the time), I nevertheless wince whenever she points one out on the road and pines for the one she had.

And last year, she drove my van when she 2k our son (as an unwitting chaparone) 2 see RM at his workplace on a field trip for the college where she teaches. I'm sure RM never got in the van. He likely never even saw it. But my fondness of that van is tainted by the fact that she used it for that purpose and is still angry about me buying the one 14 years ago.

If we DV, I'm thinking I'll sell it and drive the Model A!

-ol' 2long

A couple of things, depsite the fact that noone reads my contributions to 2longs threads. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

1. The realisation that Squids was a LTA. She had at least a 2 year EA before their PA. That scares me a little and sets into context the rate of fog decay in our life. Its only recently droppped to breathable levels.
2. I have fourbottles of bunnhabhain single malt bottled the year of my birth still left from a case given to me as a 21st birthday present.

Old GOOD malt is a pleasure that words cannot articulate.

2l I can't add a thing to this debate. You know you have to [censored] or get off the pot, right ?

{{{{2l}}}}

Wait a minute. She considers it a LB that you look at trucks, vans, or whatever they are while you're driving together?

Does she count how many squares of toilet paper you use, too?

bob, Aphelion:

I wish I could remember the brand, but I can't. I don't drink many hard drinks, perfering Road Cokes as an inebriant, but I did sample some 75yr-old scotch a telescope buddy of mine treated me 2 about 8 years ago.

That was yummy, and more so because each shot lasted a good 45 minutes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My PhD advisor is a red wine conniseur. At a grad student Christmas party about 10 years ago, he poured me a glass from a bottle he had decanted in the kitchen (I found the apparatus rather curious). He handed me the glass with both hands, and instructed me 2 sip it carefully... When I said "Hey, that's pretty good" he responded "Good! That's about $350 worth right there!"

...it was good, 2. I tried 2 get more later, but it was gone! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

...he gave my W some, 2.

Crush, Kill, Destroy... Rat Meat!

-ol' 2long

Strange is indeed truther than fiction...


No. Probably because I'm very efficient. I use both sides! (and fold it 2wice)

EW!


Death 2 Zeons! (and Rat Meat!),
-ol' 2long

bob:

Did you really just say that?

"It's a good word" - Henry Fonda, "On Golden Pond"

-ol' 2long

Bob: "Old GOOD malt is a pleasure that words cannot articulate."

A: I couldn't agree more.

And, Bob, I do read all your stuff. They're not long and wordy.

2long,

One of my recovering alcoholic brothers still has friends in low places. Very low places. Would not being able to walk, or never again have SF, be good enough?

At least it appears the karma bus has stopped for RM. Even if it's only the milk run. Dirt bag's life just keeps getting better and better. I think he sold his soul to the devil, or the highest bidder whomever it was.

OK, I really have to make some time for some work. Or maybe a snoot full of 30 yo.