Such much love and appreciation! Pep, you’ve just confirmed what I’ve known all along. You’re a woman of great style and intellect! LOL And you’re smart too!

But you know,…sometimes while reading this thread, I have to remind myself that you 2long, are living in my old house. So stay cool and stay the course ‘cause “Hotel California” is no place for a marriage to be. Besides, in the end you might surprise yourself…not to mention your WW!
Coach

Pep:

LOL!!!

In a cool meeting right now. Fun, ac2ally.

Talked 2 my D at length on the phone before lunch, and I think we're going 2 be okay, though this will be hard.

-ol' 2long

Hey Pep,
Not to thread jack,
but please look at other thread and accept my apolgy.
Jerry

2long,
I don't hang around here anymore, but pop in every few months to see how the "old-timers" are doing...Saw this post and had to respond.

You weren't around when I was dealing with a very similar situation. Similar in almost all aspects with the exception that the A had had a much shorter lifespan than what you deal with.

Anyway, it was causing me a "brain spasm" to read your first few posts in this topic because it was my situation all over again...the same conversations with DW, the same comments from her that you are hearing, it was DW's mother who gave her the BS about "re-uniting after 5 years"...I refused to do a plan B against the advice of most of the wise posters here...a few the same, most now gone...most prominently, DuncanMac and Suse(they spoke to me just like Susan and Pep speak to you)...

I refused plan B because I was sure that my W's reaction would be to just end the marriage, assuming I had given up. A couple of years later she told me that that would have been exactly what would have happened.

I got tired of the whole mess and felt the "getting older" sensation you've had, so I filed for divorce, perfectly willing to end the marriage, but still willing to work on it under my reasonable conditions.

W rented an apartment, but never spent more than 4 or so, consecutive days there...After six months of this stuff, I told her one weekend that I wasn't angry with her, but she had to get moved back into the apartment and we had to push the divorce thru to finalization because I had decided I couldn't and wouldn't live like that anymore.

That was the breaking point for W. The beginning of her "aha" moment. It wasn't my intent to put her there even though I had been hoping for this to happen. It didn't occur until she saw that I was calm, reasonable and dead serious. She finally saw she needed to get off the fence and did...It still took time, but all of a sudden, she was willing, grudgingly in some cases, to do whatever it took to keep me around.

OK, now the disclaimer to everyone else, "Don't try this at home unless you are truly ready to quit. I did not issue an ultimatum, I just made it plain that I was moving on, with or without her"...

Apologies to starfish, but I've already had this argument with too many MB-experts to count(just ask K)...my belief is that 99.9 percent, but not 100 percent of the time, following the Harley cookbook will work. Had I followed it as I was being "forcefully" encouraged to, I would have been divorced by now.

I sat like you, wanting to confront, wanting to speak my mind, wanting to either reconcile or move on, but avoided the conflict in those areas(though not in others...I'm only an "associate" member of the CA club). Not until I firmly made the decision to move off the point did things change. I'm making no assumptions that you would have the same outcome, but I do know you will ultimately be happier, married or not, just getting out of the morass you find yourself in now.

The similarities of our situations was just too eerie for my tastes, so I had to respond. You've done everything you could do for your W and the marriage, it's time for you to listen to Susan and Pep, do exactly what they are telling you and take care of ol' 2long....

DeWayne(Heartpain)

Hey Heartpain! Thanks for sharing.

Good to see you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi Heartpain:

I remember seeing posts of yours, but must have been after you'd been dealing with this similar problem.

At this point, I don't really know whether it would be my W or me that would end the M if I plan B'd. It doesn't really matter 2 me now, though, because as you said about your sitch, I really have had enough of this particular game. I am ready 2 file. I plan 2 set up an appointment with a lawyer this week, next at the latest. My coach says I need 2 look in2 the laws and be prepared for a lot more painful experience than I can imagine. But I find I just can't imagine keeping this low level of constant emotional pain and uncertainty going for the long term... I'm ready 2 be done, and if it means filing and dealing with DV 2 get done, then that's what it means.

My coach asked me if I'd want my W back if we started a DV and she were out of the house (or even not out of the house). I said, sure. I do love my W. Never felt like the ol' lovebucks drained out of the lovebank. But at this point I just don't imagine it happening, because I don't imagine anything I've ever done or not done has had any effect on her decision making abilities.

Most importantly, I can't affect her thinking, and no longer desire 2 try 2 either. I really am ready 2 quit.

Strange things do happen at this point, as I've read many times before. But probably not before someone does a little crashing and burning, and someone else kicks back and watches the fire with detachment.

Boy, it's late and I need 2 hit the sack.

-ol' 2long

2Long,

I'm surprised to see you on-line. I thought you went to a star party.

I ran into a boy this weekend - about 13, I guess - who was selling two of his telescopes to buy one better one - and I thought about you. It's great to see a young guy into that stuff.

This boy and his dad were telling me about a star party they went to - where a guy had a 50inch HD plasma TV set up in the back of his minivan, hooked to some kinda honkin scope with a camera on it - was imaging deep-space stuff and everybody could just stand around and watch it. Maybe that's all pretty normal these days, but it was the first time I heard of a rig like that. That's the kind of scope I need. My eyes are not up to squinting into some do-hicky for hours while standing on a stepladder in the cold dark. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I moved out thursday evening.

I'll post updates on my thread - if I can find it.

In short, as a plan B, it's pretty feeble. W keeps coming over and hanging around. Yesterday she even cooked. On the plus side, while she was cooking, I was out driving around the yard with my daughter on the tractor. DD really liked that.

OK, that's starting to be not short.

2Long, I have no idea really what's going to happen in my situation and I have no palandir that works for yours either. I think we just both have to make choices that seem likely to take us in a positive direction - and then see what comes around the bend. Life is unpredicable. If you and I can't predict our own wives - imagine all the other forces and actors that are working in the world - which also will affect our futures. We just have to keep our eyes open and try to enjoy the moment. I really want to learn how to "be present".

More on my thread.

-AD

PS. I've been experimenting with changing my MB name - but this is still me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yep, I was, but got home late last night.

It was 2 windy for the scopes last night, and I put mine where I'd sleep if I had stayed, so without a place 2 sleep and weather not good enough 2 gee whiz, I decided 2 come home and have time 2 do memorial day stuff.

-ol' 2long

Oh, that 'splains it.

Tell me, is it that the wind shakes the scope and makes everything fuzzy, or something about the instability of the air that makes windy nights unsuitable for space watching?

Instability of the air. Turbulent eddies of air of different tempera2re, and thus refractive indices. It can make detail on the planets look like trying to see fine detail on the bottom of a fast moving stream.

At low powers, for looking at galaxies and stuff, that's not such a big problem, though. But it was so gusty that tents and things were blowing down, and I didn't want my scope to fall over.

Wish I had stayed, though. The kids went 2 the beach all day yes2rday, and so I just futzed around the garage and shop. Didn't accomplish much of anything.

-ol' 2long

Thanks for the explaination.

2long, Welcome back. I suspect no change at home?

We had wind where I was too, so it wasn't much better for looking through a scope.

How many of your family ended up going along?

SS

Hi SS:

Yep. No change at home. Well, not much. Pretty obvious that she'd rather things just stay the way they are, though there's a small chance she's "scheming". But I can't be worried about crap like that.

She, my kids, my son in law, and my MIL came, but only for the afternoon on Sa2rday. My W seemed more friendly than she was before I left and after I came back.

We've got a meeting with an investment counselor 2night that was set up before d-day 29385472938572435, so it's still on (and I have 2 get gone so we can finish dinner before she shows up).

Been busy all day 2day with my student, so didn't have time 2 post earlier. Now, it'll be later 2night.

I instructed my DD 2 talk 2 my son if she feels like she needs 2, because it might be a while before I can set aside enough time when we're both around 2 talk, then have time 2 console if he needs me.

Then, I'm 2 talk 2 a lawyer and learn what *I* am up against regarding emotional pain and complexity of division of property before I say anything 2 my W about filing for DV.

I think it's pretty obvious she doesn't want one. Just like it's obvious she doesn't want 2 give up RM.

-ol' 2long

I wish you didn't have to talk to S, but it is probably better done before than during.

What did you learn on the trip? Anything new going on in the world of Astronomy that you didn't already knonw?

SS

The meeting with the investment counselor was very revealing. My W clearly is staking a lot on us being 2gether long term. What's up with that? (We just got done, I'm 2 tired 2 bring up NC, though it's an obvious follow-on 2 the meeting).

Mostly I got 2 look through a lot of scopes. There was one I absolutely fell in love with, though (if it's possible 2 love a telescope): a 5" Alvin Clark and Sons refractor built in 1875. Unrestored, but in very good original condition. Lots of brass and cast iron. There's a pic2re of it here:

http://www.pbase.com/mataylor/image/44078145

And no, that's not my website! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Cool telescope, 2Long...

You said: "Pretty obvious that she'd rather things just stay the way they are..."

I still say that you and I are married to the same cake-eating woman.

Of course she wants things to say the way they are....why shouldn't she? No need in considering YOUR feelings in this whole thing, right?

Georgia

Now wait a darn minute. That makes three of us married to her! How many H's does this woman have?

2long & GG (if you’re still around),
What you both seem to be dealing with are years of a mind set that is every bit as much a habit as say smoking. What do I mean? To understand consider this analogy.

How difficult is it for an employee who has been working in the same department, at the same company for say 20 years; following the same procedure (procedure that has always been acceptable and never questioned) to suddenly find that the company they work for has been acquired by another company now to suddenly be subject to new regulations, procedures and most important, values.

Suddenly values served for 20 years are not valued by the new entity. Certain skill sets once considered primary are suddenly secondary. Priorities are different, yet the job description remains the same. And the supervisor that they worked for? That person quickly realizes that there are new priorities and that they are central to the success of the department and so the supervisor manages to these new priorities.

But most employees can’t change gears that fast. They are not privy to the ebb and flow of the business in general and so have no understanding of the ultimate direction that they are expected to help push forward too. So what is the result? Often times not positive for those going through the transition.

Worse yet, many engaged in the process will refuse to understand the reality of the situation. That reality is that a change *has* taken place. That the transition *will* go forward…that the only question left is with them or with out them? Ultimately, business being what it is, those who cannot make the transition either leave or are asked to leave.

*That is reality!*

And so as it is in businesses so it is with people and relationships. Healthy people grow, they get to know themselves better and become more comfortable with their choices and they make the changes in their lives that are required…understanding that what was good 20 years ago may no longer be the standard of what enriches a person’s life today.

Healthy relationships grow the same way the difference being that people engaged in the dynamics of a relationship, communicate and understand the need for change and agree as to where they, as a couple, want the relationship to go and what form they want it to take.

When there is no agreement we all know what happens. This often occurs when one person in the relationship makes arbitrary changes with out care or consideration, one for the other. When certain changes are not understood to be to the advantage of the *relationship*, (not just the second individual in the relationship) but the relationship it self, as a separate entity, bad things begin to happen.

And so when we find people making changes with out communicating or negotiating those changes with their partner, yet, expecting their partner at accept the changes what takes place is a conflict derived from the misunderstanding. Lack of willingness to agree is labeled as selfishness, a lack of understanding, jealousy, controlling behavior, intransigence, stupidity and a lot more adjectives I can’t think of at the moment! LOL However what never seems to happen is that the arbitrary “change” fostered by the offending partner is never considered to the problem! LOL Instead it’s the “other partner’s” lack of willingness to understand, the positive aspects of the change that is construed to be the problem. LOL

This is classic and most often ends up creating total polarization in the relationship. This is where I see you tow guys presently. That’s why Harley’s Policy of Joint Agreement is so brilliant! In my estimation it’s the backbone of the MB philosophy. But it can only work when both parties make it work.

The classic error that all of us make is that we don’t *live* this policy every day. Instead we take the path of least resistance and avoid conflict at any cost. It’s only when the situation “redlines” and *have* to acknowledge the problem, that we begin to confront issues…but by then we have created a history! And so our “arbitrary” partner quotes us chapter and verse on precedence…just like little lawyers. LOL And they’re right to a certain extent! Why is that we suddenly decide that “procedures” of long standing are no longer valid. After all, haven’t we been validating these procedures right along?

In business, the resolutions to such situations are relatively easy to achieve; the offending party either changes or leaves. And so it is with relationships as well. When confronted with untenable situations, our choices are simple…we re-negotiate a change or the partnership is dissolved.

What MBs is all about, I think, is the negotiating process. How do we get both parties to acknowledge the greater value, (maintaining the relationship…the partnership) rather then the lesser value which is standing firm on arbitrary demands of just one partner and possibly suffering the dissolution of the partnership?

This is what I perceive both of you to be currently engaged in and nothing less. And that’s why coming to an agreement with your WWs would just be the first step…the real work being brought into focus after the deal is made. And that’s something that neither of you has wanted to confront in the past. But we will learn…right?

Coach

Coach:

Yep.

My W would seem 2 like 2 move on, with ME, without making a joint effort 2 understand and process what has happened. Of course, she would also like 2 decide not 2 decide, re RM. And her addiction 2 that R will forever draw her 2 want 2 keep recommending him for jobs that she subsequently considers taking herself, so that we're right back where we were years ago - she's got her fix and I'm expected not 2 care or even know about it.

But that can't happen again, not after what I've learned.

I truly believe she was excited by the talk last night of stock and bond investments, living trusts, and retirement goals we were discussing during the meeting with the IC (investment counselor). But unless and until we can shoot the elephant, I can't imagine us, as a team, making the next very difficult steps.

Things are going 2 be interesting over the next week as she plans her trip 2 her OOSP. I'm not going unless a miracle occurs. She said this am that our son plans 2 go. I won't have him around RM without knowing who the rat bass turd is, though.

Gotta run.

-ol' 2long

Nice analogy, Coach. I believe that I have accepted some culpability already saying that my CA ways have contributed to the situation. However, to continue with your theme, even us card-carrying CA'ers have our limits.

And...I don't know if they are all like me, but when that limit is reached it is no longer up for discussion / negotiation / voting / or compromise.

Georgia