2long,
I kind of think that you’ve done as much as you can do with her at the moment. Your wife sounds to be a very peculiar article. Where is she in all this? That’s kind of a difficult question…but I’m getting the feeling that where she’s concerned, this is her personality mode. She doesn’t seem to give much away about her self…especially where her feelings are concerned. By the way, my vote is sardonic! Sarcasm would be more confrontational.

As for myself, I think what saddens me most as I continue to read, is that she not only has this willingness concede to the ordinary, but also finds it acceptable. The word that comes to mind is adequate. Its as if adequate is her emotional plateau of choice

And I understand that I’m only reading about things from your perspective but still…If she would just yell and scream at you…If she would cry in grief over what used to be or what could be…if she would confront you in anger and hostility…even if it were irrational…I would like her more.

I would love to read about a person here, who is screaming ands decrying your worthlessness as a man, husband, a father…as a human being! But instead she infuriates me with her apathy. As if she doesn’t even feel you’re valuable enough to spend her emotional energy, passion and hate on.

And I want to like her…for your sake…because I like you and she’s yours but I can’t make myself feel anything about her accept pity.

I truly long to hear you attribute some depth of passion to her! I wonder at this woman you describe…does she have any depth of feeling? About anything? What is her joy? What is her pride? Why does she get up in the morning? Does she have any passion for a cause? Is she committed to anything? I’m furious at her! I’m furious that she is so easily giving you and your depth of love and feeling up…for seemingly nothing! I want her to at least love and adore RM! But I don’t think she does…so what is important to her?

2long, this is not a stupid woman or a foolish woman so what is she? Can her husband and the father of her children have so little meaning to her that this is nothing more then a moment’s sad interlude?

I feel so bad. You are closer to who I am then you think…
Coach

Coach:

I've got a lot of stuff 2 say in response, but I have my s2dent here this afternoon. I'll have 2 get back 2 you later this afternoon when I can.

But, in short, YES there are things that she's passionate about, and YES, she does scream and cry in frustration in dealing with ME.

She's not s2pid, and I do think I mean a lot 2 her. I just don't know how 2 break down the wall between us. It seems 2thick and 2high.

-ol' 2long

Coach:

Well, the s2dent just left, and I've been thinking a bit. My W is very passionate about her research, and has wondrous goals with her OOSP where she's doing that research. I've told her so. I've helped her achieve a lot of those, though she probably doesn't think so. She teaches part time at a local junior college, and has been offered an additional class this fall, plus they're trying 2 help her set up her field school at her OOSP for next year. Tomorrow, she's going there 2 work with volunteers from the school on her project. She did this first time last year, and it went great. She doesn't really need 2 work, if she'd only accept me as her H who loves her enough 2 let her and help her do these things until we retire and we can both spend more of our time out there (I'd build an observatory). But I really need her 2 not WANT anything more 2 do with RM before I'll be willing 2 proceed with these plans again.

So why can't she go NC now? I can't figure it out. It seems insane that we even had 2 see a mediator yes2rday. Am I that much of a cold [censored] 2 her???

I can accept that my particular contribution 2 the decline of our M before the A may have been very hard for her 2 overcome (and easy 2 use as rationalization fodder for the A), particularly after so many years of secrecy - even when the A was in "remission", she never told me about it.

It seems, though, that her unwillingness 2 let go of RM and commit 2 me is based on the feeling she has that it's 2 late, or that I won't really be "there" for her this time. But, it's been THREE AND A HALF YEARS waiting for her 2 decide 2 take that particular leap of faith in me like I've been taking for her, only 2 find contact has never stopped...

I love her, but what's the use?

-ol' 2long

2Long,

I'm just asking. OK?

If this is the first time you wrote on MB about your WW's passions, what does that say about your view of her?

I haven't written anything about my W's passions either.

Maybe we're supposed to be paying more attention to that.

What do you think?

-AD

AD:

I've spoken about them before.

Just that most of the time I've spent trying 2 figure the fog out. Have 2 keep reminding myself that it's a waste of time.

My W shows me she loves me in roundabout ways, in an attempt 2 offset the hurt she gives me by keeping this hopeless association with RM alive all these years.

Sometimes it works, but it's failing 2 now.

...my MIL has decided 2 go with her 2morrow 2 her OOSP. I'm glad, though I don't think my MIL is strong enough 2 argue with my W, if she's inclined 2 do so.

I still feel like a kid on Christmas Eve, though we had a nice quiet evening 2gether.

-ol' 2long

2Long,

You have mail (on your work account).

-AD

My W and her mom have probably left for OOSP by now.

I may have 2 run soon, so I'm posting this brief update before anything comes up and distracts me so I forget.

I think we made a 2ple major breakthroughs this morning. I helped her load a new TV in2 her car that she bought a while ago 2 take out there, then was getting ready 2 go 2 work, and gave her a hug. She seemed pretty down, wanting 2 talk, so we did. For almost 2 hours.

We've each got a 2ple of serious issues about the other's behavior that we'll need 2 address, but at least we heard each other out about them without running off or attacking one another.

I may even go 2 OOSP for the 4th, but I can't (and don't want 2) go next week, as I'd originally "promised" I'd do, before finding the emails 2 RM (note: I called him Rat Meat 2 her face this morning, possibly for the first time).

I still am not certain I want 2 be married 2 her any longer, but I think it's clear from what she said and from her body language during the long convo, that RM is refusing 2 respond 2 any personal messages from her (like "I miss you" and the invite 2 OOSP) and neither one says they want another relationship, but my W has continued 2 "put the drink in front of the alcoholic (her) 2 see if she has the willpower 2 resist drinking it" (put that way and a few others, by me this morning). Including recently (what would be an "innocent" exchange of some research-related observations, if it weren't between those 2). I've made headway 2ward reasurring her that I won't explode if she tells me about contact, so she'll be more inclined 2 do so, but the contact is still there (even if most of it is one-sided), however utterly s2pid it may be (s2pid in that she's risking losing me by keeping it up).

There were other things about coaching and counseling that I'll elaborate on at another time. Some of it amusing, a lot of it judgmental (on her part), but with a faint glimmer of hope that, at some point, she might agree 2 join me in MCing (she seems 2 HATE coaching). She says I need 2 straighten msyelf out first. Okay, I'll straighten! What the hell, why not? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We'll see. In the meantime, I've said before that her imminent depar2re for 4 weeks felt like I was a kid waiting for Christmas. Now I feel differently: It's Christmas!!! I intend 2 enjoy myself!

-ol' 2long

2add:

I really don't think the breakthroughs, such as they are, would have occurred at all if we hadn't had the consultation with the lawyer on Wednesday, or if I were going 2 OOSP for next week.

Are they enough for me 2 want 2 stay married? By themselves, no. I think the time apart, while she has all the things that need 2 be done on the house there that I usually do as a reminder of just how much I do for her (and because I want 2, not because I'm her slave), is also critical. I told her I will consider going over the 4th, not that I would go for sure. A lot of my decision will depend on what she does, or doesn't do, between now and then. But a good chunk will also depend on what I want this time. If I'm her slave, I'm not going. If she wants her loving husband 2 demonstrate his love for her, and she can find the strength 2 show her appreciation without feeling like she's "giving herself up" in the process, then I might be delighted 2 go.

-ol' 2long

Whadya git in yer stocking?

WAT:

A lump of coal! (a product of millions of years of evolution!).

-ol' 2long <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

2Long,

I see.

Your W is somewhat like mine.

I rarely venture to advise on MB anymore, but I'll take a poke at it.

You need to really really stay on track here.

I would risk the opinion that going - even on the 4th - is contrary to your purpose, not in your best interest, unrecommendable, self-defeating, or something like that.

You are right. Nothing will happen until she sees that you will not follow the old path. Nothing will happen until she sees that you have the power of choice and you are using it - not that you might use it - or can use it - or say you are going to use it. She has to see you actually go down a path which is not the old comfortable one. Since old habits and patterns are very well established, it's going to be hard for her to get this - and for you to hold the line.

(I'm preaching to myself too.)

-AD

2long:
No suggestions, but YOU really do sound strong.

Been doing some heavy lifting?

SS

2Long,

And her Mom is probably going to be saying - for the entire month "If 2Long were here, he would do that for you."

Mom's are pretty smart when seeing what is good for their young-uns.

-AD

AD, SS:

Thanks, folks.

I INTEND 2 be careful, and stay on MY course. I found her criticisms of coaching 2 be typical sameol'sameol', and just let them slide off. I prefer coaching 2 therapy, but I will consider doing the latter at Kaiser as a supplement if it'll lead 2 her participation at some point down the road. It's only $10 bucks, after all, and worth every penny! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Gotta run 2 a meeting, then shove food. Back later.

-ol' 2long

2long,
Talk about revisionist BS! If she has issues with your behavior, the adult course of action is to confront, discuss and ask for change…but not just ask for change…but suggest what kind of change is appropriate to the relationship and why. Complaints aren’t valid with out viable suggestions as how to change the status quo for the better.

That your WW is the driving factor in trying to re-initiate the relationship with RM is the most insulting admission that I’ve herd to date. This is an “in your face” assault on you as a man and husband. Nothing less. Your wife is saying in effect that she is actively working to have a relationship with another man…on that basis alone, any criticism regarding any idiosyncratic behavior on your part is invalid. Worse yet, it’s just plain dishonest!

Where is her integrity? If this is what she wants then it’s she that should be initiating the mediation for the dissolution of your marriage. And I can’t believe that you would enter into any kind of negotiation with her based on these circumstances. Further, I can’t imagine you going anywhere with her ever again for any reason. July 4th?…If it were I Canada, Europe (how about Sardinia), South America …anywhere but with her would be where I would go.

Sorry my friend, No Contact isn’t a solution to your problem. Solving your problem requires a woman who wants to be your wife…who is committed to her marriage…what is she committed to? Having another affair?

2long, we are in the same age range. Half the good years allotted to us are gone. There is more an better for those with the courage to seek it out and the courage to not settle for anything less. And by the way, in making this observation for you I am also making it for my self as well.

I just found out something last night about my own darling bride…and it has me livid. She’s in the Bay area by the way…supposedly staying with my middle DD who will be married by the end of the month. What is in the water out there? I guess I will post about it but want to have my facts strait first. Hard for me to do that in that I refuse to speak to he or accept her telephone calls right now. I’m thinking real black thoughts and having bad memories restored to me in living color…so much so that I’m feeling like taking one of those trips that I described to you above.

Sorry 2long, I have to tell you that I’m really thinking I made mistake…Funny though, I’m not nearly as hurt and I am angry.
Coach

Hi Coach:

Doesn't this stuff just plain puke sometimes??

"That your WW is the driving factor in trying to re-initiate the relationship with RM is the most insulting admission that I’ve herd to date. This is an “in your face” assault on you as a man and husband. Nothing less."

I agree, even if it is, in her eyes, just her desire 2 rebuild their old friendship. She was angered enough by my "demand" for NC that she talked about it with her mom and HF (her friend), even read it 2 her friend. Allegedly, they both agreed that "it's unenforceable." 2 which I replied 2 her this morning "Of course it is, but it is verifiable, and your choice of how 2 respond 2 it or react 2 it will help me decide what I'm willing 2 do." In truth, I think the fog remains so thick that she has only just STARTED 2 see my perspective because we met with a lawyer and I'm not running off 2 OOSP for some "bandaid time" with her. Never going 2 do that crap again, and I told her that. I had 2 be careful, though, lest she go in2 "defense mode", particularly if it's "defense of RM mode", which she's retreated in2 many times in the past.

"Where is her integrity? If this is what she wants then it’s she that should be initiating the mediation for the dissolution of your marriage."

True, but you know what she's been doing with her spare time at home since d-day 28475r29387r2? She's been cleaning. She's had the kids help her go through some of the many boxes of stuff from storage since the fire 3.5 years ago, she's been organizing things in "my room" as well as "ours", she's been making curtains, meeting with the cabinetmaker for the kitchen cabinets... And that isn't even a complete list. I acknowledged this morning that those are actions that show what she wants, and that I am listening, watching, and appreciating the symbolism. But she's still fogged, and she needs 2 unfog, and pretty soon, or I just might cut a $5000 check and get this show on the road.

"And I can’t believe that you would enter into any kind of negotiation with her based on these circumstances."

Well, I 2k the oppor2nity before she left 2 find out what kind of effect the meeting and my not going would have on her thinking, what kind of seed was planted for her 2 grow while she's gone. The "negotiation" that I was interested in was finding a way 2 communicate and expressing my feelings about her s2pid attempts 2 keep in contact with RM, ESPECIALLY when he "agrees with you" that they can't be friends anymore.

"Further, I can’t imagine you going anywhere with her ever again for any reason. July 4th?…If it were I Canada, Europe (how about Sardinia), South America …anywhere but with her would be where I would go."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Sorry my friend, No Contact isn’t a solution to your problem. Solving your problem requires a woman who wants to be your wife…who is committed to her marriage…what is she committed to? Having another affair?"

Well, she's at least committed 2 NOT having another affair. She does realize how destructive that was. But she isn't sure she wants 2 be committed 2 our M (though she has made progress in her thinking there, she's still very much affraid of being ignored - which was my crime, in effect, though not by design, all those years ago).

"I just found out something last night about my own darling bride…and it has me livid. She’s in the Bay area by the way…supposedly staying with my middle DD who will be married by the end of the month. What is in the water out there? I guess I will post about it but want to have my facts strait first."

I'll be watching for your thread.

"Hard for me to do that in that I refuse to speak to he or accept her telephone calls right now. I’m thinking real black thoughts and having bad memories restored to me in living color…so much so that I’m feeling like taking one of those trips that I described to you above."

I've done that in the past, 2. I haven't decided what I'll do if she calls, or even if she doesn't call, over the next few weeks. I may answer, I may not. Probably, I'll answer. But I don't see any compelling reason 2 call her. I'm already goosebumpy about the prospect of some healthy soli2de, and I haven't even left work yet!!!

"Sorry 2long, I have to tell you that I’m really thinking I made mistake…Funny though, I’m not nearly as hurt and I am angry."

Mistake in getting married, or trying 2 recover. I'm sure you know you didn't make a mistake in either regard. Like I said 2 my W the other day, "I wouldn't trade my experiences over the past 3.5 years for anything, though I would appreciate not having 2 learn those particular lessons in that fashion ever again."

I mean that, 2.

-ol' 2long

Small consideration re where to be on the 4'th.

Deep Impact will be seen best from higher elevations and dark, dark skies.

I'm planning to be at the end of a long dock about 2km +MSL in the northern Rockies.

You're welcome to join us.

Hm...

SS has invited me up around his neck of the 'woods'.

Hm...

-ol' 2long

That's good. He'll probably have more beer anyway.

Beer!???

Sadly, SS doesn't "do" beer.

Maybe you should email me directions! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long