Hey 2Long,

I know you're in a pickle about this OOSP visit.

I think part of your suffering at the moment is that you'd really like to go. You miss being there with her. And, of course, the empty house doesn't help.

Have you tried to old pro/con thing with the line down the center of the piece of paper. Or imagine it was a decision you were making on the job and try really hard to set aside the emotional overload for long enough to look at it cold/rational/scientificly. Try to apply your own best problem-solving skills to the problem.

So, I'll start. Suppose the grid has "Aspects" on one axis and "Choices" on the other. In each grid box, you need some kind of score - are if it is not quantifiable, some kind of desription of the consequences of each choice on each aspect. Some of the choices are not mutually exclusive, so you'll have to note that somehow.

Aspects of the Problem (one axis of the grid)
1) 2Long's personal enjoyment of the 4th.
2) Effects on the kids (esp. your son)
3) Creation of positive memories that you'll be pleased to look back upon.
4) (Ok, I'll put it in there) Effect on relationship with your WW.
5) $$$ spent, saved, earned or preserved = financial effects.
6) Personal rest/rejuvenation/vacation-effect.
7) Effect on expansion/limitation of future options = opportunity effects.
8) Effect on 2Long's perception of his own integrity.


Choices
a) Go visit friend A for the 4th.
b) Visit friend B for the 4th.
c) Visit friend C for the 4th.
d) Go to OOSP for the 4th.
e) Work on the OOSP (if you go there).
f) Look at deep impact (and make sure you are a good place to do it).
g) You know what this is.
h) blah blah blah.

Man, that seems tedious! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Somebody once said the goal of life is to create meaningful, lasting memories. I'm not too sure that it is the goal of life, but it's certainly something good to do. (It would be irresponsible for a man to be off creating lasting memories with an affair partner (for example) while his kids starved.)

But let's assume that in your case you have no responsibility to carry out. (Is that a safe assumption - esp wrt your son?) Assume that creating lasting memories would be a reasonable goal for yourself over this holiday. What would you do? Going to spend another holiday with your W at her OOSP sounds like more of the same, not particularly memorable. Obviously, not going, is a more memorable option. Not going is the new, non-CA 2Long sending a message. Spending the time working on the house is also just another day to turn the calendar page. Honestly, I'd like to suggest that being alone on that holiday is not likely to be a positive memory. You've had a lot of invites from folks to go get away from home. Which one is most adventurous - most likely to be the beginning of something good - most likely to be something you look back on years from now with satisfaction and pleasure? I'm sure they are all great invites and fine friends, but is a visit with one of them more likely to be a memorable adventure?

-AD

2Long,

I remember a 4th I spent with my Dad. Actually, it's not an entirely positive memory - not his fault.

We had an old '65 VW bug. (That's a good way to start a story when I'm writing to 2Long, LOL). The transaxle had some problems (or so Dad thought). I don't remember what year this was - probably mid-80's. Some guy sold Dad the transaxle off of a bug - but Dad had to go pull the thing off. So, I went with him on the 4th to do it. The thing was sitting the grass out behind the guy's business. The guy wasn't even there - it was just Dad and I.

2Long, my Dad (or so I thought) could do anything mechanical, but he just couldn't seem to get that transaxle pulled off the bug. Some of the problem was seriously rusted bolts. I could help him pull on the breaker bar, but I assumed Dad was going to do it. I never was much into mechanic stuff - mostly because if I needed anything fixed, Dad would do it. But that day, the hours wore on. I don't know how long we were struggling with the thing - but finally, I realized that Dad didn't know how to do it. That, in my memory, was the first time I realized that something bad was happening to Dad. Turned out to be Alzheimers. Really, it ended up being me who had to figure out how to get that thing apart. Dad just kinda stood aside, looking flustered and embarassed. We loaded it up, took it home an put it on blocks in out in the grass - where it sat for years until somebody hauled it away. It was never installed. Probably it wasn't any better than the one that was already in our bug. Probably it was a misjudgment for Dad to even buy the thing.

That was a 4th memory - something to tell post-Fathers'-day.

In a way, it's a bittersweet memory, because it was a day spent with Dad - and I don't regret that.

Is there anything you could do with your son over the holiday - that he would remember years from now?

-AD

Well, stuff 2 think about for sure.

My son wants 2 go 2 OOSP, but he's at that age where, when he does go, he sits in front of the TV playing video games like he does at home. He'll get out and do stuff around the small town some, and that's probably why he likes it - it's a major change of scene from LA. There are no traffic lights within 50 miles, and last I checked the population was still under 1500.

Probably the most memorable thing I could do for him, such as it is, would be 2 show him (in the process of showing my W), just what I'm about when I say I'm going 2 do something. By doing it, in spite of the inden2red servi2de aspect of doing it.

I suppose I could make something of a pilgrimage out of the trip. I've done this before: Drive up 2 see my dad for a day or 2, then drive across Nevada (being careful not 2 hit any flying saucers parked along Hwy 50) 2 OOSP (a full day's drive), then spend several days at OOSP. Only this time I could help out moving furni2re out of his house before heading off 2 OOSP for a few days. I have the vacation time, just don't know if I should be off work the whole week of the 4th or not.

Still thinking.
-ol' 2long

2L,

If I were in your position, I think I would do whatever it is that would give me the most peace....then not judge my decision.

Is that the message he would get - or that your W would get? I'm afraid that what they will see instead is Dad toeing the line - doing what Mom wants.

I may be wrong about this..., but

2Long, I think part of your struggle is that you are trying to find a way to do what your W wants while at the same time having a fig-leaf to cover that up and make it look like what you want. That way, you can avoid conflict while still being able to say that you were acting in a principled way - to cover CA-ness of it. I don't know if I said that clearly.

Hm...

Stuff 2 think about.

I suppose it does sound like doing her bidding yet again. But it's more complicated than that (I just got finished reading Bramblerose's post about her decision 2 stay M'd 2 an alcoholic). No alcoholics here, but definitely an addiction (2 RM). Breakable addiction? I think probably. Not something for me 2 do, of course, but something she's going 2 have 2 do for herself.

Much of the next several months, or year or so, are going 2 be directly affected by how fast we can get the house done and what we do with it when we get it done. If we file for DV, it'll be at least 6 months of work on the house 2 get 2 the DV, after which time we'll probably still interact frequently finishing things up around here.

Not much different than the way I'm living now, only there'd be a "deadline" approaching, rather than being put off 2 some indefinite fu2re date.

As for the OOSP trip, or the trip 2 my dad's 2 move stuff. What do I want 2 do? Well, I like doing the work, and I said I would be doing it before I found the emails last month. And it is one of the darkest skies around, I'd be near power, and could probably even leave my scope set up under a cover during the day so I don't have 2 polar align it every night. The probe hits the comet on the night of the 3rd, but the effects likely will take a day or 2 2 really show up, and it'd be nice 2 be in one place each night, ready 2 document whatever happens.

For "fun", that would be my preference - 2 gee whiz and image the comet over a few nights after the impact.

For personal integrity, helping my sisters move furni2re out of my dad's house (and seeing my dad again), would be good 2 do, 2.

I *could* dispatch 2 feathered dinosaurs with the same hunk of lithology by going up north for the move for a 2ple days, then heading out 2 OOSP, telescope and cameras in the van. The only problem is that most of the work I've been wanting 2 do this trip would require a pickup so I don't trash the interior of the van. And Sacramento, over the "hump", across Nevada and back 2 LA is a bit much for that old 1960 Singlecab VW pickup (and me in it!). I'd likely have 2 rent something.

Then I need 2 cogitate about how much time I can spend away from work right now, versus taking more vacation later in the summer, for FUN ONLY stuff (like the Oregon Star Party, perhaps).

YIKES! Gotta get off 2 work. My s2dent's coming in at 9 this morning so I can get some more work stuff ready for her 2 work on!

2hip, gotta go!

-ol' 2long

Okay, between file saves (200+MB files, takes a while), I can post.

I think this is what I'm going 2 do:

*Drive up north 2 help move my dad's furni2re out on the 29-1st.
*Drive across Nevada on the 2nd, watching for UFOs on the way, and stopping at the Shoe Tree 2 leave a pair of worn out flame converses hanging with the others ( http://www.roadsideamerica.com/set/shoetrees.html ).
*Spend the 3rd through possibly the 7th or 11th at the fabled OOSP, working on stuff I've wanted 2 and said I would, seeing where our respective "heads are at", and playing with my telescopes in a clear, dark sky for a few nights.

That's what I want 2 do. I 'spect I'll be bringing my son and his friend along with me, and would hope that my W won't need 2 come home this weekend only 2 drive back out next week, just 2 pick him up 2 take him out there. My DD and SIL are watering the yard, and though they're not thrilled about it, it's not that hard and they get outdoors (with the bees) in the process.

This will be my "final statement of commitment-willingness", if you will. I may go back there a lot, or I might never go back there again. We'll see. I intend 2 enjoy myself, though (I ac2ally love the drive across Nevada, it's such beautiful, wide open country!).

Only thing I need 2 decide is whether 2 take my truck or rent something for a week.

And SS, if that's what I do, any chance we could have lunch on my way home?

-ol' 2long
P.S. I think I fixed that vintage toilet last night!

2Long,

Well, now you have a plan!

I hope you have a rip-roaring good time with it all.

Helping your sisters might be an opportunity of sorts. It sounds like you don't see them often.

Now, do you feel relieved - having decided?

-AD

I'd love to do lunch.

Once you know more, we'll see if we can make it work.

It may be easier and cheaper to rent a BIG truck at your dads for a day, and then get one at Beaver, or somewhere closer to OOSP for a few days or a week than getting one for the whole time and putting lots of miles on it.

It may be cheaper to get a dump truck load of gravel delivered than to rent a truck too. Small towns sometimes have cheap rates on stuff like that. If the truck is moving when it dumps, it could do much of the spreading out for you.

I don't know if the fishing is good this year in the mountains east of Beaver, but you could even do that.

Heck, I might want to try it myself.

SS

W and I plus twins leave for girls camp early Wed morning. I won't be back online until the weekend, or Monday the 29th.

YOU take care of yourself.

SS

I will, SS!

I ac2ally had a chance 2 talk 2 my MIL about this before my W got back 2 the house, then with her a bit about logistics and stuff.

I think this is the right thing 2 do at this time. It might even "work", though I won't bank on producing any results (other than 2 give me some time out in the dark with my scope when it could be fun!).

And in other potentially good news, both of them (MIL and W) will stay there until after the 4th. I just need 2 be able 2 bring bills with me for them both if needed. ...but it also means I have some time 2 myself again this weekend.

-ol' 2long

2long ~ you aren't just a conflict avoider, you are a people pleaser. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Not suggesting that you change your plans....but how about changing how you are in this relationship by taking care of 2long's needs instead of everyone else?

BR:

I still insist that I burned my CACA card (Conflict Avoiders of California) the day after I saw those 2 emails last month.

Believe me, if I didn't think I was going 2 have fun doing stuff for myself, I wouldn't go at all. And it could be a 2rning point in our relationship - real recovery or a real beginning 2 an end.

One of my needs is 2 do things for others and see how they light up when I do something that's appreciated. My W does appreciate the things I do around there for her, just hasn't done enough because she was "distracted" by her rationalized thoughts about marriage all these years.

I'm going 2 find out, once and for all, if recovery is on the horizon.

This is IT!

-ol' 2long

Well 2 ~ I wasn't talking specifically about this coming trip. I meant a major shift in how you are in your relationship.

You see, I don't think you are done, not even close. I think however, you are in a big giant game of chicken with your wife in an attempt to get her to change to make you happy.

I've been lurking here since you found those emails...I've been watching. I haven't chimed in because I thought you were getting good advice.

But here I am because I think my point of view - having followed you for so long - is maybe a tad different.

Conflict avoiders aren't just avoiding conflict....they get a pay off for avoiding .... now that form of manipulation has failed, you've got a taker in charge and changed tactics.

I don't think you should talk to your wife about recovery. I think you stepped out into a spot that is uncomfortable due to the fact that you arent' used to it, and you are trying to get back to that comfortable spot again.

This is all just my opinion, and only that of course.

Why not just examine what 2long needs for now...not what does 2long need in a marriage... but how about just plain ole project 2long?

BR:

Hm... I'm not always sure I understand what people are saying 2 me, but I'm trying. I think I understand the part about the major shift in how I am in my M, but not sure I get the part about playing chicken, getting her 2 change 2 make me happy. I think of the major change as being the fact that I don't care all that much anymore whether she changes or not, though I certainly would try 2 be ready 2 respond if she did.

But if you think I've stepped out in2 an uncomfortable spot, why do you think I shouldn't talk 2 her about recovery? What I think I'm going 2 do is just be me when I'm there - working on the things I enjoy and said I was going 2 do, and fiddling with my scopes at night (with a healthy dose of down time 2 sleep!).

Definitely understand the need 2 cogitate on what I need for a while, though.

-ol' 2long
P.S. A relevant poster from despair.com: "PROCRASTINATION: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now."

2 Long

I think you want me to come in here and say sompin to ya (based on what you said to Coach) ... so here I is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm going to the Arclight Thursday nite to see my portrait get unveiled ... did I tell you about this?

If not ... email me and I'll tell ya all about it.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Pep:

I vaguely remember some mention... But do tell! **edit**

-ol' 2long

Dear 2long ~ maybe I misread. Slap me if I've missed something here. Since my stroke I have a horrible short term memory!

But where has your wife given any indication that she wants anything other than the status quo to continue? She's told you that giving up RM is out.

Your response was to talk to the atty about divorce.

Thats a fair boundary. I think it is entirely reasonable to say if you continue to hurt me, I will remove myself from your reach.

My problem is that now you both have now formally talked with someone about divorce....you are hoping (expecting) that this will "wake her up".

2long ~ this is who your wife is. She is a woman who expects that you and RM will continue in her life and who has convinced herself that she is entitled to both of you.

She has not done even one single thing to indicate otherwise.

This is why I am saying you are trying very hard to get back to a comfortable spot. She's done nothing to change. You are already anticipating possible recovery and running out to see her for the 4th ... because you really do NOT want this divorce.

I truely believe that your divorce threat is exactly that...a threat ... in a desperate attempt to force/coerce/manipulate your wife to change into someone you can be married to.

Otherwise...where are all the posts about how 2long is going to handle his divorce and his future plans sans wife?

Don't tell me that you don't care what she does anymore, because you and I both know, that is just not the case.

Otherwise, she couldn't manipulate you into coming to her on the 4th. She wants to get back to that comfortable dance too...and thats what she's doing...asking you to dance your old dance....and you twisted yourself into a pretzel trying to convince yourself that your motives were pure!

When I read your account of the mediator session, the thought that crossed my mind was - she's already rewriting in her head what she thinks a divorce is going to be like. She's already decided that this isn't going to be so bad, and you will still be there to help her out.

I don't think you should rush into a divorce, but when are you going to stop standing between your wife and consequences?

We teach people how to treat us. You've taught your wife well. I would be willing to bet that she doesn't think much will change at all.

And with the current tone of your posts, I believe that too.

If you really want a chance to recover your marriage, your wife needs to see a new 2long - an independent 2long that is moving towards a full, and interesting life that has no place for her.

Divorce busting 180s might be your answer here...

I have to also agree and add that my problem is that you got the kids involved in this even telling them of your plans to D your wife...etc. And now you are back peddling.

And I know they are older, but still.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

What is it teaching them?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

BR, Susan:

Hm... Certainly there's still hope, though I really don't expect change from her this time.

I really have things I want 2 do and need 2 do, and I think that going there and doing the things I said (not promised, though that's what she remembers), is the right thing for me 2 do at this time.

As for the kids: My DD knows more than I give her credit for, and knows how hard this choice was for me 2 make. My son knows what he knows because my W told him what she told him.

I have issues, 2besure.

-ol' 2long