Get ready to rant! What a rat-bum-no-good day yesterday was. I finally saw pics of OW on her website - some irony - they were all wedding pictures. I had to see up close if what I saw was enough to keep my Phil occupied. She was and wasn't. In daylight with a closer view, she looks seven years older than me. OLD. Her giant boobs are saggy. Oh TOO BAD. Late day made her look better than she deserved. She's not remotely as good looking as I am. Not even close.

And this is why he wants her. She is NO challenge. She's not even all that pretty. She's common. She's wrinkly. She's needy. She's also very greedy. She will do whatever she thinks he wants to get the things she thought I had. She lacks class. (said the woman who is trashing the OW ||sigh||) Well, she does!

When the sneaky sex in hotels with someone new wears off then what? When they have to sleep on regular sheets and then wash the sheets? Then what? When she has to put up with his mess and dirt? Let her deal with real life with him for a while!

Sally

Sal,

I hear what you are saying. Our WSs decisions just don't make sense. I hear some pain I have been through. Tough demons, but you can make it.

Would write more, but I am too tired tonight. Wish I saw your rant earlier. Will get back to you about those demons.
NCWalker

Pigs, skanks, slimeballs, hobags, snakes, OW: needy, selfish, immature, immoral and evil. Definitely uglier, stupider and fatter than we BS. Okay, got that off my chest.

Sally, I think you are that "poor me" stage that we all have from time to time. Been there-frequently. I'm finally coming out of the hermit stage.

Maybe having a family, kids and friends does this or maybe enough time has passed that I can heal a litte but I feel somewhat optimistic. Actually, I am an optimistic person. (Cold weather for a picnic? At least, you don't have to worry about the potato salad going bad. The glass is always half full.) I've got one more month of my 40's. That makes for introspection. Am I going to spend the next 40-50 years unwanted and alone? I don't think so.

Okay, I'm not young. I'm not skinny and I probably won't be rich. However, I am intellient, have a great sense of humor, a sly wit, an agile mind and a genuine laugh. I'm a great dancer, a storyteller, a gardener, a traveler, a reader and an excellent cook. I care for my family, my community and my world. I have a womanly figure, laughing blue eyes and curly hair that still doesn't need to be dyed. Beauty? Let's leave that in the eye of the beholder. I am empathic, sympathetic and ocassional pathetic. The women in my family seem to do better AFTER their men leave the scene. It's a good package. I will survive.

You can come to my pity party next time. Maybe we can discuss Jane Austen. I can never find anybody to discuss Jane Austen with...

OK Sally,

I have the sense that you are pretty intelligent and probably an avid reader. If that is not the case, just go with me on this, it is purely illustrative.

Ever been caught up in a book? I mean, to the point that you really can't put it down? To the point where you know you should go to bed because you have work the next day, but you are just going to read "one" more chapter? Then lo and behold, it is 3 am and you have ended up finishing the book.

And you have to get up at 5 am to get in to work and you are going to be dog-tired. And work is going to suck because you will be so tired, but the book was THAT captivating.

Guess what? You had an affair. Not in the context of what we say on this board, but stop and think. The dynamic is the same. You have an obligation to your job, one that you are rewarded for by a paycheck. Part of that obligation is that you will show up "frosty" and ready to get down to business. They expect you to manage your personal life in such a way that it will not degrade your performance when you are on the clock. And being fatigued because you didn't go to bed will affect your performance.

Just like an affair, your obligated partner (work) didn't know what you were doing.

Just like an affair, you gave of yourself to something that gave you enjoyment, but perhaps wasn't in the best interests of you or your partner (work).

Just like an affair, you probably think they (work) won't know anything about it and it won't hurt them if you don't tell and cover it up.

Just like an affair, it drains you and your become difficult to deal with in the eyes of your obligated partner (work). Snappy, inefficient, short, tiresome.

See the parallel? So why did you have this "affair" with the book and break the obligation with work? Simple. You were selfish.

You wanted something for yourself, and even if you DID weigh the consequences of your choice to stay up late, you figured it would be "all right" to short-change your partner (work). We all sometimes make these choices. And we tend to categorize people into "good" and "bad" by where their personal thresholds are on these types of issues.

Now I am not saying what your SO did was the same as reading a book and being tired at work. I do subscribe to the school of degree - some stuff is plain wrong. But look at the dynamic. It is the same option-consequence weighing-choice pattern.

Sally REALLY wanted to read this book. She considered and knew she should probably go to bed, or she would be tired the next day and perform less than perfect. She figured it would be OK to go ahead and stay up, work wouldn't find out and she could tough it out for a day.

Fact is, you deceived them. You were overcompensated for services rendered by the fact that your services were at less than nominal, which is what work had every right to expect.

So is there a point? Yes.

Admit. You've done it. The book thing. Right? Maybe it was a late movie, or hanging out with a friend. But you've done it.

Do you hate work? Not on "some days," but do you have a HATRED for your job? Is it worthless? Undesirable?

Probably not. Most, when faced with something the REALLY hate (not just a few bad days, or week even), really loathe, can't stand, etc. Most GET OUT OF THE SITUATION.

The statement that because you chose to stay up late doing something you wanted and shortchange your job does not imply causality that you hate your job. Only that you wanted something and made an immature decision.

So where is the causality that what your SO did implies in any way YOU are faulty? It ain't there.

"Look what he did to me, I must be an awful person," is an invite to a pity party. And believe me, I have thrown plenty myself over MY WWs actions. We're human, you and I, and sometimes we NEED that shoulder to cry on, sometimes we need that vent.

But shake that off. Your SO probably still likes you a lot. My WW does. She has told me so. Heck, she wants to remain friends and says she will miss our friendship.

Our "alien abductees" actions are only statements on their own maturity, selfishness, and poor judgment. They are NOT a reflection of OUR value or worth. You just can't get from A to B on that one. Doesn't make the demons easier to fight, but that's how I beat 'em.

Your in my prayers,

NCWalker

(Who's pretty sure you are a GREAT person, simply evidenced by the fact that you are willing to undergo self-examination).

Hi NCW, does this mean you're not going to answer my e-mail? :-)

Yes, those are the exact feelings Phil has expressed toward me - he has hatred for me, he thinks I am worthless and undesirable. He really loathes and can't stand me. And so yeah, GET OUT is what he did.

Actually, he doesn't like me a lot. He can't stand me. He feels this huge welling of anger whenever he sees me or talks to me. He doesn't like looking at me anymore because all he sees is hurt. When he finds himself liking what he sees or feels, he gets angry because he promised himself that he wouldn't fall into a "habit" with me again. His words. And he no longer wants a friendship with me anymore because of those reasons. He does not want to be associated with me in any way. Ever.

So given that, I honestly don't know why he wants us to get together tomorrow. :-( I don't know what he gets out of it since he hates me - seeing me - hearing me - being near me SO MUCH. It's not a pity party. I am thinking these things I'm wondering if I am being, have been delusional all this time. And of course, that isn't helped by Phil telling me I am crazy but I really am wondering if maybe he is right and I'm nuts... it's horrible.

Sally

Yes I will answer your e-mail.

OK you trumped my own analogy.

My STBXWW has said the same things:

I hate you. I can't stand to be with you. Everyone thinks you are nice, but I know the truth. Blah. Blah. Blah.

Know when she says that? When my presence convicts her. Sometimes I don't even have to say anything. She would just look at me and erupt, fearing what my opinion of her must have been. Usually unjustified.

The roadmap of the WS soul is scrambled when they cross the line to the affair. A significant amount of energy is spent "restaking" the boundaries so that they are in line with their actions. Some, perhaps much, is justified by throwing stones at the character of the FS.

That's how it works. In almost every case I have observed on the board. And it confuses the mess out of us FS.

MOST people adjust their behavior when it crosses their internal boundaries to again "color within the lines." Even though we don't want to.

The WS cheats (in more ways than one) and shifts the boundaries to encompass the new behavior they don't want to give up. And they need a scapegoat.

My argument is not made by what your SO is saying to you now - he is not rational. My argument is made by the fact that if there was TRUTH to what he said - about you being loathsome, etc., he would have spent his energies getting out of the relationship.

You, out of MOST of us, should be able to see this. I have property ownership, debt, and 3 kids that would help tether my WS to me.

You are not even married and have no kids. He could essentially walk away scott free at any time.

Let me put it another way - If you REALLY WERE as bad as he says and all he had to do was walk (which is true, right?) then there are ONLY 2 possibilities.

1 - He is lying. You're not as bad as all that and he needs a scapegoat so he can live with whatever personal morals he can salvage. If you call that living.

2 - He is really STUPID for staying. I'm talking serious over-chlorination of the gene pool here. In which case, why in the world do you want him?

I'm betting it is option #1.

Don't be offended at the pity party remark. I said I have thrown a few myself. Sometimes the emotions just "need" that. But your nuts if you think me or any other of your friends here are going to let that "I'm horrible" [email]cr@pola[/email] stick to you. I've already ordered the "Teflon Spray of Truth" and am ready to liberally apply it to you.

NCW

Please cover me with the teflon spray of truth. I need it BAdly.

I know I'm Phil's scapegoat. Everything bad that he has experienced since meeting me up until two seconds ago is my fault. Any failure, pain, disappointment - anything. You name it. It's my fault. He blames me for all of his temper and anger. Any problems he has or will have with OW - those will be my fault as well. (I can hope!)

Yes, sometimes I don't even have to say anything. Sometimes I've not even been there and wasn't saying anything and I'd get these e-mails that were conversations Phil was having with someone, himself, and now I know, OW, but not me... But he would write to me as if I knew what he was talking about...

He can walk away scott free with the exception of the house. I am guessing that his pain, like mine is ready to give up on everything else. We have to settle the house. He can let me have it or we can fight about it, but I'm not letting it go. I don't have anywhere else to live.

He is not happy about the idea of me being homeless. He is considering whether or not he should extend his generosity to later than our agreed upon September time-frame. Meanwhile he just gets more pissed that he is putting money into a place he hates. He grows angrier everytime he considers that as long as we have the house he is "connected" to me against his will.

Yuck.
Sal

Once, I was sitting on the floor watching TV. Back against the couch, legs outstretched. My oldest son, 3 at the time, comes walking by and trips on my (unmoving and completely obvious) outstretched legs. He falls down, slightly hurt. He gets back up, crying and indignant, and declares "If daddy didn't have his stupid legs in my way, I wouldn't have fallen." And it was quite amusing, the 3 yr old logic. Loses its lustre when an adult uses it, no? But 3 yr old logic it is.

Count on it. And one day for you, it will become amusing. I promise.

That's what I mean by your presence convicts him. He is restructuring his boundaries to fit his lifestyle. You kinda get in the way of that.

You missed my point. The fact that he did NOT leave you is the statement that his current ragings about how horrible you are are just ragings. No substance. Your situation had a fairly uncomplicated exit route, compared to most. He was just selfish. He hates you now because he can't restructure his boundaries around you AND OW with no guilt or consequence on him.

His next phase will be acceptance. "Well, at least I got what I wanted." That's where my STBXW is at right now.


NOT against his WILL, against his WANT. He COULD just forfeit the house, if he wanted to. He doesn't want to.

His line of thought is something like "I can't believe how unreasonable you are, Sally. How dare you be in the way of my happiness. I have boundaries to redraw here, and you are making a mess of things."

What you have to understand is in this boundary restructuring process, it is far easier for him the less human YOU become. What I mean is, he is mentally reducing your value as a person. Which lowers your needs, rights, feelings, etc. All the stuff that was paramount at the start of your relationship. Reduces your "footprint" on his new map and makes it easier for him to adjust his boundaries.

Because, Lord knows, he SUFFERED! I mean, he was JUSTIFIED considering what YOU did. HE is the real VICTIM.

That's the stuff going on in his head. It is a defense mechanism his taker has put in overdrive so he can still like himself.

You must understand that you can do nothing about this.

He either has the internal fortitude to own his mistake and make it right, or he is going to run.

All you are doing is sticking to your boundaries. Probably was an ATTRACTIVE quality to him when you met.

NCW

NCW really good post. (would have been better with at least one "Jiminy Crickets" ... but nevertheless, good post.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

NCW, I'm only confused by your "Not leaving you" statement. He did leave. He got pissed off, waited the night until a horrible storm passed, threw some bags in the car and LEFT. That was it. The rest of his stuff is still here with me. He left me with all the bills and all of our household responsibilities. He left me.

We talked at first about making it work and being together. As soon as I'd packed and called to tell him I was coming he told me it was over and that he'd already announced to people that our engagement was off. He told everyone we knew before he even told me.

So he did have an easy exit route and he took it. Or did I miss your larger point? A couple of weeks after he left I couldn't handle still being in contact with him. I missed him so much I didn't think I would be able to heal if I we kept talking. I asked him to give me some space and time and he wouldn't. Said he couldn't. He couldn't and wouldn't let go.

He was already sleeping with OW at that time (but I didn't know about her then) and he still wouldn't let it go. So he kind of wore me down and we got together a couple of times a week and spent time together. But the whole time he was screwing around w/ OW and not telling me the truth.

If that's what you mean, well since A was exposed, the only real difference is that now he actually hates me. Before he only blamed me. Since I found out about A Phil has been angrier and angrier about everything and WANTS to punish me. He said so. He wants me to suffer. And then of course he doesn't and he softens and it's like sweet Phil is back. The cycle has been getting worse and worse the past few weeks though, not better.

A full month passed, since after I found out about the A, without seeing each other face to face until I brought him some soup when he told me he was sick. A month wasn't enough time for him. I don't know why we are getting together tomorrow. I don't know why I am going. My only reason for going is to keep Plan A and hope for some future reconciliation alive.

I don't think I want to see him. I am scared to see him. I am scared it will all go bad and I will be worse off than I was before.

After we spend time together tomorrow, if he really doesn't cancel on me, I don't want to talk to him or see him until he calls me, a couple of times. I know it's not what will make him happy. It's not going to be a strong Plan A at that point maybe. I've been doing my best to be consistent and improve myself and I've shown him some improvements. He sees them.

He'll be busy with work and vacationing and OW. He doens't need me to stroke his ego any more. I need to do more for me though. More for me means I need a break from trying. And I need a break from him. He'll have to come looking for me. I figure he might come looking for me sometime in August to go over house selling plans.

WAT, of all people here, you have had the keenest insight when it comes to Phil, his hurts, his needs, his psyche. You have nailed major problems from the tiniest of inferences. I could use some of your wisdom. After the conversation where I tried (successfully) to sound lighthearted and detached, Phil went someplace dark he was so upset. He really thought I didn't love him anymore. He was very hurt. I don't want to do that again - I just can't tell what to do or not to do.

And WAT? NCW, Pep, Ark, Brat,Dobie, Melody, RIF, bOb, TT, FF, weaver n' believer and KA you pulled my butt through a night or two... All of you wonderful peeps too many to name! Progress is very slow and there have been many backward steps but I am making some improvements in Sally. The job is going to be the biggie. So far no luck there. :-( I'm at least trying to try a little more today than yesterday. I really want this to be the bottom of my pit...

Sally

Sally,

Here is the point. I was responding to some statements that seemed to indicate you felt you had no value. Or that your value, worth, behavior, whatever, drove Phil to OW.

My point was, given the fact that the two of you didn't really have any serious ties (legally, offspring, etc), if the problem was with YOU he would have headed for the hills even WITHOUT an OW.

But he didn't. OW came first, then badmouthing you. The point is don't take that as a statement about your character, it is only him struggling with justification of his behavior after you called him on it.

Got it? - NCW

Sorry Sally, Did not get your email.

Holy sh*t! Holy cow! Holy Holy Holy!

I just had a call from the guy I fell in love with. (except for the part where he conspicuously left out the part about sleeping with OW)

What just happened?

Sal

And I didn't get a chance to post my latest epiphany thanks to WAT, Graycloud, Binder NCW and Pep on that and I'll come back to it but oh my gosh!

1. He took the block off of his phone number, which was dumb to begin with since he gave me his number.
2. He was sweet and soft and old Phil 100%
3. Except for the fact that he's a big fat liar.
4. We're really having a date tomorrow! supper and a movie.
5. He asked - asked! To come over on Saturday to mow the lawn? What? No landscaper?
6. I asked if I could do anything while he mowed and he asked would I make cold iced tea. Makes the heart go pitter-pat! HA!
7. He's still a big fat liar.
8. He called me sweetie and honey and he loves me.

OK, Cake-eating-big-fat-liar is back within the realm of what I can understand. But there's that big fat liar thing that makes me want to build a security fence around my heart NOW! That was some damn fine acting. If I didn't keep telling myself he was a great big fat liar I'd be out sailing the stars because he was THAT good. ARghhhh. I'm NOT buying it. He was all good. Too good.

And it was nice. Oh man he talked to me like he'd fallen in love with me all over again. Not one tone. Not one nasty. No weighted words or hidden meanings. Sweet, warm, cuddly, sexy. All that and the big fat unspoken lies and I let them alone. :-(

Sal

So I had this pseudo-awakening spurred by Binder's thread and some responses there and then I put it together with some past and present responses to me and I came up with something really important. I did something wrong. I was really wrong. Now if there is something I really like better than being right, it is being wrong!

I was wrong about talking with Phil - to Phil for a long time. Which isn't to say he was right. But I've been really, really wrong in my thinking about our communicating. I've not quite been getting it with Plan A and what Phil's needs are. Oh you guys - Thank you! Thank you for being here.

graycloud -
I keep bringing up four qualities:

Humility
Patience
Courage
Compassion

For this woman, with this man, certain roles are reversed. Always have been. And while I like the romance of being the Jewish nun, the qualities you presented are the ones I needed to be reminded to have and keep and use and share. You saved my soul tonight.

WAT, Pep, NCW, I listen carefully to what you say. I listen to everyone else too, but you've had good insight into Phil and that often helps me to see differently, sometimes in time to mend mistakes. I refer back and study and re-weigh and re-learn.

Binder, the conversation you had with you MIL about MM was vaguely similar to what came from Phil's family. If you had not written about that today, I would not have read what you wrote before about the moguls and that's what helped me to make the mental leap to put together the little bits from everyone else today.

My letter to Phil is what came out of your gifts today. I sent it a bit BEFORE his call so he hadn't read it, and his response which just came in this second is below...

• ****** edited by Sally ******

So all right, he didn't really explain carefully or without meanness, but a spoonful of nutrasweet makes the bullcrap go down "in the most delightful way." I meant the rest of what I wrote though. I'm just being dopey with the bullcrap line - it wasn't really. It was truth.

Rotten PB! He took her to Nobu! Again! OW doesn't like sushi. Won't even try it. Nobu has this sort of cooked sushi dish. So again, he's trying to woo her with -- ME! I wonder if he got her to eat any this time. Jerk. He must be getting hungry with her. Big fat liar. Big rotten fat liar. Tomorrow we'll be having a pint and chips. Grrrr. Hey, I like Nobu! and he's right, we have better. But damn! What about me!

Sally

Sally has mail.

NCW, make mine ALTandBNR. Backatcha - Sal

So reality check? Is this the response of a guy that never wants anything to do with me again? Must've been some night in the city. Phil hasn't been this nice in - a very LONG time. The phone conversation was meltingly good. :-( HA-RumPH!

Sal

Sorry Sal, you missed again.

Freaking out.

Four hours to go and all I can think about is Phil and OW and when did A start really and is it possible that it's been going on since last autumn and why am I doing this?

And why was he so nice to me? And why did he want to see me really? Is someone going to come into my house while I am out with Phil? That's about how much I trust this.

And how will I not say anything about that A for whole time we are together? And if I really love him why do I feel this way?

Is he going to want to come back and stay here after the show? The movie doesn't let out until 12.15. He'd get home at roughly 1.45 or so if he drove back...

Worry. Fret. Moan. Obsess.

Sally