So what's your plan for meeting her needs on the whole truth about the A? You noted yourself that you're not a FWS, but a WS? Does that mean that the fog is still there, that you're still in the A? I don't know your story, so I apologize if there is something more here that I should know...just asking the question.

I didn't say hurt.

I said shocked. I didn't see this coming today. oh well... here it is.

And Owl, I really don't know where the disconnect here is but look. I am not currently engaged in any sort of affair. Posibly I left an F off somewhere... but really... the implication of some "slip" is really not helping. I have zero to hide about anything currently going on.

And Pep. God I think you have such an upbeat outlook on life sometimes... but Dday to wedding day was 1 month. We didn't know then what we know now. We have to deal with that. I am not sure in such a shock scenario, anyone would make the "best" decisions even 20% of the time. I guess what I am saying is it isn't her fault she didn't know to get the details before the wedding. Who knew?

I don't know.. wow does this feel like a springer show.

Not looking to find fault.

Did anyone think to ASK the preacher first? ... "Reverend, I just found out my groom to be has been cheating on me. What do you think of that?"



Pep

no. why?

Patriot-

My apologies for the confusion, and for any problems that my confusion may have raised. My intent here IS to help, not to hinder.

You have zero to hide about anything that is currently going on. That is AWESOME!

Now, can you come clean about what WENT on?

I know myself as a FBS that I had to clearly and completely understand exactly what it was that I was forgiving my wife for...and that true healing couldn't begin until that forgiveness was there. My guess is that since Froz hasn't felt like she's received a full truth from you, she doesn't know yet that she can trust you...she doesn't know what it is she's supposed to forgive you for.

You clearly say that you take ownership for the A, and for it's impacts on Froz...that is an awesome first step. You say that healing her is the most important thing...so what's your PLAN to heal her?

I'm sorry that you feel like this is the Springer show...by no means am I intending any of this as an attack on you...to me, it's simply re-stating what you already know, but it APPEARS that you've not been able to do yet. I don't know you or Froz, so I honestly know you or her enough to want to attack anyone.

Frozen,

You have every right to your feelings, you don't suck...no more of that kind of talk lady. There is a difference between "bashing" and "venting". The vent is your truth, your feelings and they are valid. A "bash" is guns loaded, stretching the truth character assasination. You vented and a whole lot of truth came out whether you meant it to or not.

Don't discount your truth, you are discounting yourself.
____________________________________________________________________

Patriot,

A personal attack on you? Hardly, personal attacks don't interest me. I won't start one now either. Hard truths don't equal being "attacked". I respond to both WS and BS all the time, I have no personal agenda other than the restoration of marriages torn apart by cheating.

You feel attacked because you are still uncomfortable with your place in all this. You are still harboring secrets and for all your "fix my marriage" posts you still haven't grasped the basic tenets of fixing your marriage. Thats no attack either, it's hard truth.

ALL WS's are selfish children. You probably see that as an attack, but it isn't. How can you explain your actions as other than selfish, self-centered and cruel? Much like a child throwing a tantrum in Toys-R-Us it's all about me, me, me. To take anything anyone said here as anything but constructive critisism is proof enough or should we just gloss over ANY possible fault or blame you carry?

Why do you think your W is venting here Patriot? Because she hates you? Becuase she wants to hurt you?

No, she is venting here because she is in pain. You have paid a whole bunch of lip service to getting it right, and making the W the most important part of your life yet you can't recognize her pain? Every single solitary day you carry forward without getting it all out she will suffer, your family will suffer, you will suffer.

You still haven't come clean...Why? What are you afraid of? There is no excuse for it.

Wouldn't it be nice if she would just sweep it all under the rug and forget about it? Well it isn't going to happen and your marriage will never be all it can be while you secret away your heart, your honesty, and a chunk of your life your BS doesn't know enough about to work through it.

I don't want to be harsh with you Patriot but when I see a "poor, pitiful me" post pop up it is infuriating because it shows to me, and others, that you still do not understand. I truly don't know what it will take for you to go from words to action Patriot, but it needs to happen soon or your going to get to witness your W's love bank dropping daily till she doesn't care anymore. Till the holes in her heart can't be patched up anymore. Till someday when you "get it" and she doesn't "want it".

We know your side of the story Patriot...
Engaged
Cheated
Frozen married you anyway

It isn't about YOU anymore bud, It's about Frozen. The affair was all about you now it's time to help Frozen heal and everyday you don't get honest with her and yourself, she gets to feel the pain of D-Day all over again, everyday. Everytime her imagination wanders to what you did, it is like finding out all over again. She has no safeguard from it until you get honest.

Is that what you want her going through? Reliving your cheating all the time? Can you possibly understand yet what kind of pain and torment that is?

I don't think you do. I think you are still being a selfish child protecting yourself rather than healing your spouse. If you understood the pain and torment you wouldn't let it go on ONE MORE DAY. If you saw Frozen in the backyard, bleeding profusely, you would run to her right away and take care if it right?

Well she is bleeding on the inside, what are you going to do about it?

Alright, thats enough for now. Hard truths Patriot, not attacks. You want to be the WWH or the FWWH? Someday just loving husband? Follow the path before you and eventually that day will come unless you'd rather be STBXWWH?

Get right and start today, you can do this but it's time for action.

RebornMan

Okay, Pep -

Still going to keep that one alive?

ANYONE would have told me not to marry him after D-Day. Perhaps, that's why I chose not to tell anyone. Maybe I was AFRAID they would tell me not to.

Why did I go ahead with the wedding?

You've always asked me that - heck, I ask MYSELF that! You asked me that question shortly after I arrived at MB, and I answered you as honestly and completely as I could at that time. I have done some healing, some learning, and perhaps gained a little bit of distance, allowing me a slightly better perspective. So here's my answer now:

*I married him because I wanted to.

*I married him because I loved him. I loved him then and
I love him now.

*I married him because I was in major denial, and I wanted
to believe that if I pretended everything was normal, then
maybe it would all go away - and it really would be normal.

*I married him because, at the time, the Army was sending
him to Afghanistan and I was afraid that if I didn't marry
him then that I would lose him. I was afraid that I might
just get over him while he was gone for 12-18 months and
I didn't want to let go.

As far as not demanding to know the gruesome details before the wedding, as you suggested...I tried. I grilled him hard and then I'd LB the crap out of him. At that time, we were also seeing a MC who actually ordered him not to answer my questions, and ordered me NOT to ask them (Patriot was much better at following his order than I was at following mine). I also didn't know as much about MB principles then, and while I have learned quite a bit, I am still learning how to apply them.

If Patriot had illusions that I had processed the affair and was ready to simply put it behind me before we married...well he doesn't have those illusions now, does he? I believe I've cleared up that potential misconception for him.

So here's my question for you? What can I do about that now? I'm already married now. Does it really matter what I should or should not have done before the wedding?

I am desperately trying to make what I do NOW count. I have already committed to him, and I am already committed to Recovery. I'm trying my butt off every day - to heal, to grow, and to learn. I knew it wouldn't be a walk in the park. Give me something I can use NOW!

Patriot, I was thinking about this ...

What would I do if I was about to attend a wedding or be in a wedding as a bridesmaid or something ... and the bride confided in me she just learned her soon to be husband has been cheating ... I would NOT attend the wedding, because I think marriage is a sacrament, and the vows taken under those circumstances are not sacramental in my opinion. So I was wondering who knew ... like did the preacher know, and the bridesmaids, and who if anyone spoke out to say "NOT a very good idea!"

Pep

FROZ!!!

You do not suck and you are allowed to Vent!!!!!!!!!!

You guys have things to work out - but he has to give you what you need to heal as well.

As a FWS it's hard as your taker wants to come out - but this the time for the BS - so you BITE your tongue and let the WS heal and mend. The BS doesn't deserve any comments when they are hurting that might make them feel worse.

I am SO guilty of doing this from time to time with my H when I am not feeling well, and I feel so bad after, as this is HIS time to heal, and me critizing him is not right - this is not the time.

It's not Patriots time, it's FROZ's time. You need to heal my friend.

If you feel bad, you can apologize, but don't regret posting or venting- you feel what you feel.

Hang in there you guys - i know these times are tough - one day you seem to make progress the next day none. (((HUGS)) to you guys.

And TALK things out! COMMUNICATE! Do it in here if you need to.

Pat - you need to be more concious for a bit of your words and efforts. Your needs are NOT important right now. Give Froz what she needs to heal, and once she is healed, then together you can work on the marriage and met eachothers needs, but right now PAT, these aren't about your needs, or your opinions. Take comfort that Froz is still there and trying as a sign she wants the marriage, and give her a chance to heal. I had to come to terms with this last week - that my needs in this marriage will not matter until my H is healed. His needs are all the matters right now. Same goes for you Pat - Froz's needs are all the matters - you killed her, you betrayed her - time to meet her needs - whatever she needs to heal. THEN it will be time together.

So when you want to make a comment of the kids, don't - let it be Froz's choice for a bit, comments need to be kept to yourself, unless they can be brought up in a constructive manner until it's time for the marriage.

-ds

I apologize Froz ... thank you for the 2X4

Pep

Pep,

That's IT????

I don't want an apology from you - the situation didn't even warrant one.

What I want is your help!

I realize you and I have some history, here. I'm not sure how you view it, but I sense you've been avoiding me. Have I somehow fallen from your graces??? Do you consider me a lost cause???

I do not feel qualifed to help you ... I can't think of anything useful to say ... if I do think of something useful I will say it.

I think your situation reminds me too much of something from my distant past, and this is not good.

Neither you nor Patriot would be pleased with my opinion as it stands today, so I will just shutup for now. I do more harm than good with the 2 of you I'm afraid.

And THAT is what I need to apologize for ... doing harm and not good.

It is not about fallen graces, but about my inability to sugarcoat my opinion ... especially when logic and emotions get mixed up, I often blurt out something that is my own business and should not be offered up to others as anything useful.

Sorry.

Pep

Frozen,



Sorry,but that jumped out at me!! My H is so bad about this...THIS is one of our biggest probs in my M.

Patriot, This is still lying. And you told all those "little" lies about the A. This caused MORE distrust. And more and more!! Please don't avoid, lie, omit...just have the talk!! Don't even THINK about lying during the talk.

I respect you both very much, but Patriot, you SAY that it is all about froz, make your actions match. TELL her EVERYTHING.

Froz, I don't blame you for marrying him. I think that those are all very good reasons. And nobody, who hasn't been through infidelity and healed the "right" way, would know how to deal with it.It was all to quick. Hindsight is 20/20, right?

My H even resents his own son sometimes. I can UNDERSTAND this, to a point. Kids are hard. But HE wanted that kid more than anything, and it is not MY fault if he didn't know what he was getting into. I tried to warn him. Same with Patriot. That is part of being a grownup. Deal with it, don't blame and don't hide how you feel. Explain reasonably and LISTEN when your W says how great you actually got it. Yes, we all get frustrated with day to day stuff and kids, but vent to her, NON-judgementally and let her lead the way. She KNOWS, they are her kids. Now you can share the joy, or let the normal "bad" stuff ruin it for you. Yeah, they are expensive.

I will trade you my D14 for a few weeks. I have to get on to her to help with anything, then she complains about having to do "everything"- HAR!! I would miss her, spoiled little beauty that she is, tho. I would need her back in a few weeks. I'm sure that you would be ready to send her!

Keep up the good work. Yes Froz, you SHOULD vent here. Maybe Patriot shouldn't read it until you have worked it out and come to some conclusions. How public is it? I could bump into you and who would know?

jls

Sorry, had to add. Patriot may not mean all that about the kids, he may just be venting. Maybe he should qualify that and THEN listen to Froz. Patriot, remember, those are her kids and she will defend them and it is her right to do so!

I notice she didn't say anything about my being a lost cause.

Why is it, Patriot, that I am always reminding people of someone from their past? And what is it about me, exactly, that causes mother-figures (real, adoptive, or virtual) to bristle?

What did I do?

I think that you were talking about Pep there, froz. But I wanted to say, You are NOT a lost cause. Sometimes i get so frustrated here (at MB). This is all a NORMAL SANE way to feel and act, on the part of the BS. OF COURSE, you don't trust him. Sorry, Patriot, but why should she?! OF COURSE,frozen, you are angry and resentful. Why shouldn't you be? And of course you get upset when he complains. This would make any sane BS nervous.

I love your posts, frozen. You are REAL!

jls

Patriot, of course you're not perfect. We knew that already. Neither is froz or anybody here. Nonetheless,that doesn't excuse any of us for not trying our best to do what is right. And what is right for frozen may not be what is best for you. Paying the price sucks, don't it. I admire that you are trying so hard, Patriot. I know that you don't need the 2X4s. SSome of us can't help ourselves, tho.

Okay, no more venting here. Yesterday I was angry and I was frustrated...all for valid reasons.

I do feel badly for the way I handled it. It was not my intention to throw Patriot to the wolves. It was not my intention to shock him. I honestly thought he knew how I felt. Apparently, he did not. I should have discussed that with him privately first, rather than have him read how his wife feels and how others view it, and be caught off guard.

Man, do I hate to be blindsided. I did that to him yesterday, and for that...I truly apologize.

With that said, I feel the need to address a couple of things.

One of them is the implication that Patriot is, in some way, a hypocrite for putting together the information in the Quickstart Guide and the Toolkit for WS's. He believes he is. I do not, and this is why:

If anyone had the illusion the Patriot should be placed on some sort of pedastal after putting those threads together, they are sadly mistaken and not giving credit where credit is due. Patriot is not the author of those threads. The information in those threads was a compilation of ideas from many people, including MB principles. Patriot wasn't the author, he was simply the messenger.

Putting it together was an action and a growing experience for him in initiative and in selfless giving of his time. If any sort of praise should have been, or was, given to him for those threads, it should be given because of his time and initiative. I was never proud of him because of those words. I was proud of him for taking the initiative and for the giving of his time.

hypocrite

n : a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he does not hold

He didn't say that he thinks giving me details is not the right thing to do. He hasn't done it, but I don't believe that is his reason.

I have told him from the beginning that I would allow him room for growth. I ask the same from him. I do not expect him to "get it" overnight, nor do I expect perfection from him. I do have my deal-breakers. Lacking perfection is not one of them.

I would ask that no one else here expect that sort of perfection him, nor from anyone else. He deserves the 2 X 4's, and should expect them. He SHOULD have undertaken that task before now. But he is not a hypocrite. He is a FWS, much like the other FWS's here, who is trying to grow and become the person he would like to be.

I support him in that endeavor. I am proud of the things he has accomplised thus far, and I am confident that he will accomplish much more.

In my opinion your anger is a bit misdirected. You are angry with him, when I really think that the person you are or should be angry with is YOU.

You continued with the wedding AFTER you discovered he had cheated. You have a list of "why" you did...and they were all your choices. At any given time you could have called it off til these issues had been resolved...even if it took YEARS after his return from Afghanistan.

You didn't choose to do that. You are stuck and angry...and I really believe that anger is misdirected at him.

The children issues are going to come up now and then. Even if they were your biological children with him these issues would come up. I don't see where his comments were all that bad it be honest. He was sharing his feelings with you...and parenting thoughts with you.

AND...you sure make those children sound angelic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have a daughter and son also...they are 22 and 20 now...but I sure do remember the teenage years and it wasn't all grand.

Patriot has his work cut out for him. Step-parenting is the toughest job on this planet...and it will be even harder for him. It was just you and the kids for years and to bring someone else into that dynamic makes him the odd man out from the start.

You might want to cut him some slack on that front.

JMHO
committed

frozen,

I thought he only cheated BEFORE the wedding. Has he cheated AFTER you have been married too? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I must have missed a few posts.

committed

You missed nothing. I refer to him as a FWS, because that is how he refers to himself. I suppose it sounds simpler than FWF (former wayward fiancee). Although we were not yet married, we lived together for about 2 years prior to being married, so the dynamics were pretty similar to a FWS.

That explained, my anger is not misdirected. I have experienced anger in the past towards myself for my decision to marry him. I have resolved that and am in this marriage because I choose to be.

My anger with him yesterday was based on fear. Part of the "why" he has given me for his A stemmed from his fear of committment. The fear of being even partially responsible for two teenagers played a large part in that. When he conveyed his stress over his feeling financially responsible for my children, it triggered me and I became fearful that he again felt pressured. If he had an A, due in part to feeling pressured, and he was feeling pressured NOW...what would he do?

I was/am also angry, appropriately directed, that he has not yet given me details. I have been patient and allowed him time to get to this point. Yesterday, I no longer felt patient. I felt stuck. I felt angry with him because it seemed that he was kind and compassionate enough to comfort me in the "stuck" place I have been (while waiting), yet he wouldn't be kind and compassionate enough to actually DO anything to help get me out of that place. He seemed content to just leave me there, hoping I would somehow get out by myself.

I didn't paint an inaccurate portrait of my children. I didn't call them angelic - you did. My children have accepted Patriot from the start. They love him and they have never shown him disrespect. They even like him, as most people do, because he is a very likable kind of guy. I never claimed that my children were perfect. I said they were really great kids, and not a lot of trouble. That is true. I am confident that if you asked Patriot, he would tell you the same. They definitely aren't your typical teenagers (certainly not like I was). I'm not sure how I got so fortunate, but I know that I am. This is not to say it has always been easy, or that typical teenager times won't befall us in the future. But for now (knock on wood), they are respectful, obedient, and both very dilligent students.

I cut Patriot some slack, as you suggested, and I reread my somewhat emotional post and feel some regret in posting it. I believe I showed quite a bit of disrespect and disregard for my husband's feelings. I will be more mindful of that in the future.

Patriot-

I still don't see anything here about how you plan on addressing frozen's need for answers. Since healing her is your priority, what's your plan to handle this?