DS and Froz,

I keep checking in, but still only have a brief amount of time. Haven't forgotten you Froz.


DS, that really alarmed me. Gonna give you a hard time. Are you saying that a little while ago, God didn't care about you and LET you make that poor choice? And now all of a sudden he will step in and PREVENT you from making it?

Not so. God will let you make poor choices until the cows come home. His greatest gift (other than the son) to us is free will.

If you are focused on God, you won't make poor choices. But he won't stand in your way of them. Perhaps it is picking a nit, but I think it is an important point nonetheless.

NCWalker

Sometimes I am not the best with words.

He will not prevent me from making it - if he did that sort of thing I wouldn't have done this to begin with.

God is #1 in my life now. I don't make decisions without consulting Him first. He has set a guideline for my life now,and I trust him completely - I have closed my eyes and fallen into the Lord's arms.

Tempatation will ALWAYS be around me, this I have no doubt and God will never "Prevent" me from making the poor choices. But God is teaching me day by day to trust in him, and include him in ALL my decisions. You can't solve problems on your own...you need God's help. Temptation is an easy way out, and not the right way. I am learning more and more everyday.

I didn't mean he would prevent me from making poor choices, but I do beleive with God as my #1, and his teachings and my relationship being strong every day with Him, that he will show me the right path from the wrong path, and help me be strong to choose the right path. of this I have NO doubt.

This whole experience will be scar in my life that i will always have as a reminder. a reminder of when I was broken, and came to God's door, and he saved me.

I will always make mistakes, and possibly more bad choices, but I believe as long as I trust and live in God's ways, I will lessen those, I will truly think about things with God in meditation before I make large decisions that may not be the right decisions.

I hope this makes sense?

-dorry

froz,

I'm still out here. Just thinking. I don't like to post unless I'm led. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Did want to clarify one thing....about your mouth being a deadly weapon.

Said it from a capability standpoint, not an accusatory standpoint. Saw your reaction, my apologies, poor word choice. What I mean is you CANNOT underestimate the damage the unrestrained mouth of a wife will do to a husband. Not that you're necessarily doing it.

You gals have a hard job. (We're all little boys remember?)

Talking to your husband without wounding him is like giving him a backrub with a steam-roller and not crushing him.

And we all say you gals are fragile. (Funnny, the Bible mentions that women are a vase to be on a pedestal. Too many interpret that as "fragile to be protected." I kind of like "beautiful to be honored," myself.)

Skimmed MMs thread - you are in there a lot froze. Feel better you're in good hands, God's.

NCW I'll be back. Gonna pray a bit.

Mr. Walker, or nc (mind if i call you by your first name? ha!),

You take all the time you need. It is very thoughtful of you to "check in". I am a VERY patient girl.

I didn't at all think you were implying that I had a big, mean mouth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

My reaction stemmed from the realization of the impact my words can have. I HAVE used that "dangerous weapon" to inflict pain on Patriot (never before D-Day, and not after I learned what LB was), and the knowledge of the damage I caused is what saddens me. I wish I had known a better way to cope with my own pain then - instead of lashing out. I merely meant that am not very proud of my past behavior. I wish I had protected him better.



That IS difficult, isn't it? Gimble has taught me some skills in dealing with my very extreme emotion-ness to avoid inflicting damage in times of crisis.

I appreciate that you are taking the time to try to teach me to speak "man-ese" that I may use on a daily basis.

I will admit that I am NOT a very quick learner. However, once I do finally learn something - I learn it well and master it. It is because of that reason that I ask you so many questions...not to challenge your ideas, just to learn them completely.



Out of sheer curiousity, I wonder what you meant by that.

You were posting there (in there a lot). I am always tentative about letting loose with the Holy Spirit until I know. Are you spirit filled?

NCW

We are Christians, ncw.... so have at it. Our MC uses the Bible in our sessions and I really like it. So.. as I said, bring it.

What he said.

LOL - YOU AGREE WITH PAT - WHOOHOOOO lol

(just buggin ya)

DS,

Mortarman (and God) told me I HAD to!!!!!!


Froz

LOL master MM....

He is kinda a wise ole man eh? lol

I am right up there with ya - God is telling me the same thing - I get PRETTY critical of my man - I think I am trying to help him......learning to bite my toungue too - we will be the most PERFECT women when we are done lol

-dorry

DS,

Between all of them, they should have us whipped into shape in no time!

Let's hope they don't notice that we're over here trying to be unruly right now.

SHHHHH!!!!!! ncwalker is coming!!!!!


P.S. Patriot said he was gonna teach me their secret handshake. I intend to pass this gem on to you, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LMAO - secret handshake lol

NC walker is the master of the universe of idiotville ya know - gotta be carful around Mr. Walker........... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

We're not up to anything, guys (bat your eyelashes with me, DS)!

** wink wink**

**batt batt**

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So what do we have here? (And hopefully my feet are clean as I have a sense that one is going to be in my mouth).



Listen to Pat! “so have at it.” Pretty strong statement. Almost a challenge. And you don’t make a challenge unless you have the confidence that you can survive it.

Then listen to froz! “What he said.” Almost street-tough sounding. Again, exuding confidence in her Christianity.

So what happened? Where did God go wrong? I mean, He loves a whole and sanctified marriage, yet look what happened. Am I to conclude that MY God (who is the same as theirs) is not as powerful as I thought? Or am I to conclude that they are lying with their statements of faith? After all, I know the power of my God, yet look what happened in their marriage.

The answer is really NONE of that.

Does God LET bad things happen to us? For I think, froz and Pat may be questioning the faith a little bit. My GUESS is that they are turning to it because they feel or sense that it is what they should do. They know that it is right. But somehow it seems to be lacking a bit. That question, I’m guessing, is in their minds. How did we get here, and where was God?

Does God LET bad things happen to us?

Well define BAD. If by bad you mean endangering to our souls, then the answer is no. If by bad you mean convicting to our flesh, then the answer is yes.

A TRIAL is a test to strengthen us.
A TEMPTATION is an attack to trick us.

God only deals in the first. The second happens because of the other guy. And should we CHOOSE to, God will allow us to walk headlong into that.

Pat’s shame is because of his temptation, but froz’s pain is because of her trial.

And fortunately, Pat feels shame of his temptation. Was it good that he DID it? Absolutely NOT. Can good come of it? Absolutely YES. Check out Rom 8:28.

They are somewhat newlyweds, if memory serves. They have had their “wake-up” call EARLY in their marriage. Not taking anything away from the horror, but there is not as much history between them as in other couples who face this.

Froz – Take heart in that. He STILL wanted to marry you. I know the enemy is telling you that he did it out of obligation, plans already were set, whatever. But he is old enough and wise enough to NOT do anything hasty. That sounds like a demonstration that you are his CHOICE, not his need or his want. Means he wants you for who YOU are, not what you give him. How many women go through an ENTIRE MARRIAGE not knowing if they were “really” the choice? Take some heart in that, peace, and comfort. That is a club you can use to beat the demon away that comes and says “Should I have gone through with it.” You got to see a demonstration that you were actually a CHOICE. Not a convenience. Your trial is strengthening you. Painful, but good.

But I get a sense that there needs to be some peace in this marriage. The yin to satisfy the existing yang of pain.

Ever read Samuel? The prophet Samuel in the Bible has, what I think, is a marvelous point. One that is usually missed. Samuel means “Heard of God.” The story is about a mom who can’t have kids. She prays and promises God that if He gives her a child, she will give the child back to Him. And voila, she becomes pregnant and bears Samuel. I believe that Samuel is 3 yrs old when she takes Him and turns him over to the prophet Eli, keeping her end of the promise to God. (She then goes on to be very fertile and have lots of children).

Well Eli has to ungrateful sons who die a horrible death in the story because of how they dishonor God. So Samuel is actually raised by Eli as his son. And Samuel has the servant’s heart. When he is older, he is lying in bed and the Lord calls out to him “Samuel, Samuel.” And Samuel gets up and goes to Eli, asking his master if there is something he needed. Eli tells him he didn’t call, go back to sleep. This happens a few more times and Eli realizes that it is God trying to talk to Samuel. And he tells Samuel the next time God calls, Samuel is to say “Speak Lord, I am listening.” And Samuel does this and his career as the kick-butt, king making prophet begins.

Did you catch it?

I mean, if Cecille made the flick, God would have been saying SAMUEL, SAMUEL with the temple shaking and the light a-flickering and the Stay-Puft-Marshmallow man stomping through the town. But that’s not what happened.

Samuel thought it was Eli SEVERAL times. It was Eli who realized it was God, mainly because he KNEW he didn’t say anything. Samuel was sure it WAS Eli. One would think that the soon-to-be-prophet would KNOW the sound of God when he heard it.

One would think.

But that is not how God talks to us. God uses a familiar voice. And that is why we miss it so much. You have to listen REAL CLOSE, or you’ll miss it when he is talking to you.

Now over on MortarMan’s thread, we are seeing some good stuff about what a Christian husband and wife are supposed to do.

And there has been some consternation about “sanctifying” the wife. To me, that means making her holy. We all exist in the world, and the stench of it drags at our souls. And it is the husbands job to do the nasty work of cleaning that stench of his wife’s soul. Not that she is doing anything bad, I’m not implying that. It’s more like going into a place where lots of people smoke. Even if you don’t smoke at all, you come out of there smelling like you do. It’s like that.

And the husband is to “sanctify” his wife from the stench of the world. How? By washing her in the Word. By reading the Word of God to her. Not WITH her, TO her. Far better for the husband to do this than even the pastor. Why? His voice is FAMILIAR to her. Which ties me in to Samuel above. Get it?

Froz and Pat – Let’s work on the SPIRITUAL intimacy. Your statements of faith are truly bringing great joy to me. I personally think you have a much MUCH better chance of restoring AND improving based on that.

NCWalker’s second homework assignment. Pat – read the Word to her. EVERY night you can for a month. Climb in bed, let her lay her head on your chest so she can hear and feel your voice. Curl up, and READ to her. Pick something YOU like, that speaks to you, but you MUST read her 2 Psalms every night in addition to YOUR selection. If you want to go longer, fine, but NO CHEATING. Choose ‘em at random. Then the last week, the fourth week, drop the Psalms and read the Song of Solomon.

If you two have been arguing that day, and don’t feel like it GET OVER IT. I mean it. This is giving God HIS due, and you can put aside your own junk for that for the half-hour to hour it will take. Treat it that way. This isn’t Pat getting to be close to Froz or vice-versa, this is Pat AND Froz honoring God together for his sanctification of their marriage. REGARDLESS of how they feel. Got it? Obedience is better than sacrifice, so walk in some obedience to what God intends. And if it has been a hard day, keep reading until you FEEL the peace of God. And when you are done (if it was a bad day) DON’T talk about your fleshly day after you have washed her. Just go to sleep. You’ll mess up the fresh, clean soul you gave her. Unless, of course, you two end up doing the OTHER thing God means for a husband and wife to do. That’s OK.

My promise to you is you will be AMAZED at the spiritual intimacy between the two of you. If your not, I’ll eat my hat. (But not my Jedi Training Academy Hat, one of the other ones). In fact, it will probably become something you two look forward to.

Let me know how it goes, I think lots here will be interested.

NCWalker

(And I’ll give you more homework when you are ready.)

Hmmmm...

That's a lot to take in all at once. That is a post I will have to read several times in order to absorb it all.

Funny, that I sounded street smart. I do believe that's the very first time anyone has used that term to describe me. If you only knew how very NOT street smart I actually am.


But, I will agree that I am confident in my Christianity, though my perceptions are quite child-like at times.




There have been many times since all of this has happened that I have felt angry and betrayed by God. If a trial is to strengthen us...why does He continue to try to make me the strongest person I know? I don't want to be strong anymore! I've had quite enough of being strong, and I've had quite enough of pain. Patriot was supposed to be my reward for enduring SO MUCH pain in my lifetime. I really did believe that. You may say that there is a chance that he will be, still. I don't think so. Sure, we could still come out of this together, but it will never be the same. You may say that it could be better. I don't think so. Our relationship will always be tainted by this.

With Patriot, I felt loved and accepted for the first time in my life. There was a connection between us from the very start that was so powerful, I can't even describe it. I wanted to give him everything he'd ever wanted. I wanted to give him everything I had ever wanted! I still do! I love him so deeply, and feel such a strong desire to protect him from pain, that I have stood beside him. I know he would hurt if I left and I want to protect him from that, and to know the safety of having someone love him completely and the security of having someone accept him, despite his shortcomings. I want to give him everything. The result of all of this is that he feels MORE loved - because my love for him has been truly tested and has never wavered. But, the flipside of that coin is that I will always feel less loved.




I don't take heart in that - quite the opposite, in fact. I had wanted to make that committment to him for so long, while he ran from it. On D-Day he suddenly changed his mind, and marrying me became a priority. Why? Because he knew what was he was about to lose! He was about to lose the gifts I had been offering him - of love, devotion and loyalty. It was never about losing ME! It was about his desire to redeem himself in his own eyes. Marrying me was a sacrifice for him. I had sacrificed for him, in giving throughout our relationship. He now felt he "owed" me, and was willing to make the sacrifice of marriage because he believed it was what I'd wanted for so long.

I asked him the other day about his love for me and how he felt. He replied with answers such as "your love for me is so strong", "you love me and accept me". I told him, patiently, that I was inquiring about HIS feelings, not mine. He still couldn't answer, without talking about my feelings. He never did, only saying that he knows that no one could ever love him as much as I love him.

I really believe that it is the strength of my love for him that keeps him here. I believe he is a good person, and that his remorse is great. I believe that he feels horribly for what he has done, and that he perceives the only way he can right his wrongdoings is to make compensation to the person he hurt. If he can do that, then he will be a good person again, in his own eyes. I don't believe it has anything to do with who I am - I just happened to be the person whom he hurt.

I have seen God work many times in my life. I have seen the "why's" for some of the events in my life. Probably the biggest example of this is the fact that I became pregnant at such a young age. I had my DD17 when I was 18, and my DS15 when I was 20. While each pregnancy was surrounded by circumstances of crises at the time, I now see that the fact that I had children so young was truly a gift from God. I became ill in my early 20's, with cancer and was/am unable to have more children. While I know that God didn't make the choices that caused me to get pregnant, I do believe He had a hand in blessing me with the two beautiful teenagers that I now have, because He knew it was then or never.

But, there are many examples that I do not understand. I realize that God may simply have chosen not to reveal some of them to me yet, but I don't think I will ever understand why it is necessary that everyone who has claimed to love me, has ultimately betrayed me. By ultimately, I don't mean "in the end"...I mean in the ultimate ways...early on by abandonment, later by emotional abuse, physical abuse, robbing the innocence of my beautiful daughter, and now this. You suggest that it's a test to strengthen me...but, ncwalker, how much stronger do I need to be???? I don't have any strength left this time. I don't really even have the WILL to try to fight this time, only to try to accept. It seems the much more logical choice would be to accept that what I longed for, love and acceptance, does not exist for me. It never really did.

I will continue to study, and to pray. I will not allow myself to become bitter. I am, however, very sad. I had very much hoped to receive some of that for myself. Even if that is what Patriot may be attempting to me offer to me now...what a very cruel twist of fate that I am no longer able to feel it. It simply doesn't reach me and I find no joy in it.

I apologize for my obvious self-pity this morning.

I will study the passages you mentioned.

I'm not sure why you seem to fear that your foot will be in your mouth.

You possess a great deal of wisdom and kindness. My husband respects and admires you for it, and I am grateful to you for sharing it.

Froz

Because you and Pat tug at my heartstrings and I am so afraid of saying something that will bring you pain.

You and Pat remind me of me and my wife (not the sitch, but the personalities). And I didn't make it. And I want you to for selfish reasons. To know that it could have happened. To know that I could have a hand in fixing one.

So how's that for pressure?

I don't know froz. I am going to continue to pray. I FEEL something about the two of you and I just can't put my finger on it.

And I guess going back and forth like this is helping me zero in on it.

But God DOES work mysteriously. Someone else might be reading this, between us, and He will give it to them.

And at the end of the day, all that matters is that one of us hears Him for you. It doesn't matter who it is.

Let me think a bit and I will post you my thoughts on trust and uncertainty. Don't know if it will help. But at least you will have a fresh perspective.

NCWalker

But try what I asked about the reading at night.

Froz, you have been handed something unfair. And it sucks. Almost like you were on the verge of the fairytale and it was snatched away.

I ate lunch with d_rose. I haven't seen him on the board in quite a while. He and his wife are now ministering to other couples in their church. He was absolutely BEAMING about being able to give back and help people in THEIR pain. I mean the joy was ON the guy about it.

I liked your line about feeling like you are strong enough. I am going out to go bend some steel. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Least we haven't been stoned simply for our beliefs. So it is all perspective.

NCW

NCW ... may I admire you?

Froz and Pat .... this is a really good guy here, this NCW.

My prayers have been answered, just not in the way I expected ! ( LOL ... that's usually the way prayers are answered, isn't it? )

I prayed for a way to help you , and here it is ... NCW is the answer to my prayers. I am not the MAN for the job <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> NCW is da'man ...

I was feeling like a bit of a failure coz I could not think of anything HELPFUL to offer .... and now you have been assigned homework by NCW ... I love this !!!

Grateful for answered prayers. Grateful for not getting what I expected in the way of an answer to my prayer.

Just going to read along, and enjoy God's work.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

A long time ago there was a trouble WS named BV.

She was really in a funk and was close to my WW. And I was feeling like you, froz. It was a really bad time for me, full of darkness and despondency.

But BV was in a bad place and my wife asked me to post to her. And I was actually angry that she asked.

So I sat at the keyboard and wrote her a message about pain, suffering, and hope.

And it touched a lot of people at the time.

So what? So the point is that God will use your pain if you let him. Seeing how some good came out of my suffering really helped me endure it.

You don't have to read it, I'm just offering it to you. Every time I dust this one off, it hurts.

Not sure if I can post the exact page, but the post I am talking about is from me on page 8 and it is the only one by me on the page. You will recognize a lot of other names. runawaypot is my wife.

NCWalker

Another Dusty Old Thread