Thanks, Miss M. Well, Lemonman may diss me, but I still hope he will "see the light" in all this. I don't know if I have the reservoirs of compassion for anything more at this point. I suspect he really has to make a mess on the floor, and publicly. He wrote me -- mediated by lawyers -- that he has "made a mistake." Well, that's something, I guess. But not enough.

But the beauty of Plan B is ... I don't have to think or worry about any of this anymore. It's simply not my problem. I have no decisions to make. I made my decision with the PBL.

P.S. to Lemonman: I believe the Harleys also say there should be a limit to Plan B -- a year or two, I think they said. But I can't think of a reason why I'd want to talk to someone who has treated me this way. When the A ends (and it is a when, not if), I guess we can talk, if he wants to. But what for? Reconciliation would be a hard sell. Friendship? No way.

AAM,

Just another little threadjack.

I do understand. I was so fortunate that my H got thru all this. And I must say that it was the Lord that changed him. He "saw the light" and I do believe the Lord delivered him, or took his addiction from him.

Which would fall in place with your sig line. Gotta love it!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />So true.

So, maybe I should start another thread to find out what you are gonna do?

PS. Thanks lemonman, you rock. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> You will be blessed.
Praying for YOUR continuing recovery.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

There's not much for me to "do" at this point. While he's in the mud pit, I certainly wouldn't want to join him.

End of threadjack! Apologies to Mimi & Lemonman!

LM:

I figured out one thing that gets to me about your posts. You may or may not be aware of this. You tend to state your opinions/beliefs as FACTS. You use the word FACT. When I read FACT, I automatically want to know the proof source. You know what I mean? I'm not necessarily referring to the content of what you are saying but how you say it.

Totally unrelated to the above observation about your communication style, I want to share this observation about myself. I realize that MB really fits for me because I did stop meeting my FWH's ENs. I really did deprive him and neglect him and before the A he was a GREAT HUSBAND. I took him for granted. He is back to being himself now. Do you see why I am such a fan of this approach? It seems like a miracle to me that by following this PLAN I was able to reunite with my H, thinking at the time that he was GONE FOREVER. I put all of my confidence in this method, following it to a T and it worked. It continues to work as we follow the MB principles....

Without PLAN A, during which I addressed the areas which I neglected, my FWH was able to see that I was able and willing to make the improvements necessary. During PLAN B, he missed me, becoming aware after 24/7 with the OW, that she could not meet his needs. What can I say? My sitch fits with the MB theory to a T. Maybe that is not true for everyone as you say but I can't help but be a BELIEVER....

I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from, LM... How you say things gets to me. However, realize that's my opinion. How you communicate is certainly your choice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That is interesting Mimi because I just read back over the last couple of post by LM on this thread and I did not see that at all.

I have no problem with the way Lemonman posts. I like reading him. Different people respond to different approaches. Thanks Lemonman. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As my counselor said "take the meat and throw away the bone". Take what is beneficial for you and ignore the rest.


Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Lemonman said:

My problems with the principles are the Plan A. I do agree with the spirit of the PLAN, but in reality, that is not how it is practiced here.

Most of us old timers agree with you on this point.

PLAN A often becomes a whipping contest of how much B$ and abuse can a BS take before they have to run for cover. The way it is done here, just enables the deceit to go on.

Especially if Plan A is done when there are other addictions going on simultaneously. Or doing Plan A in the face of a repeat offender. I say, skip Plan A and go directly to Plan B in 60 seconds!

When I hear things like...."PLan A for life"....I cringe.

This is one of my pet peeves. Plan A is not a tool/skill for the rest of the marriage, it is a skill/tool for affair intervention.

When I see people say "I have been plan A'ing for 8 months" I shake my head in disbelief.

When I see someone posting that this is their "2 millionth D-day" I go <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I also do not buy the fact of "Emotional NEEDS" being such the component of affairs as he states.

Know what, it is not the cause of affairs, it is the cause for unhappiness in the marriage environment. Plenty of us were not getting our emotional needs met and were cheated on.

The Harley method is to understand the EN's of our spouse, and to fill them whenever possible, because that keeps love alive. But you are correct, anyone could cheat while blissfully happy in their fulfilling EN-met marriage. People can still make rotten choices.

I think it is more likely that the marriage is unhappy when the EN's are not being met, and this turns on the soon-to-be infidel's sense of entitlement that they "deserve" to be happy, by any means possible.

So, you are not as far off the mark with the rest of us as you'd like to think you are LM. You are not a rebel. Although you sure like to think of yourself that way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Oh, Susan:

I was just pointing out MY experience of LM.

I wasn't saying that he needed to post differently FOR ME.

I was just sharing that...

Just to let you know, though, that he really does do this, though....not meaning to quibble, BUT...

LM said:



To ME , that's a strong general statement to make as fact. I would want to know where I could learn more about that. I'm speaking, I guess, more about myself than LM.

Are you also saying you do not feel this is a true statement? that you question this FACT?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[quote So, you are not as far off the mark with the rest of us as you'd like to think you are LM. You are not a rebel. Although you sure like to think of yourself that way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />[/b] [/quote]

LMAO............yeah, you are probably right. Thanks for raining on my "rebel" parade pep.

LM

Nope. I don't agree that this is a fact. The part I don't agree with is IF THEY CAN. What specific marriages is this FACT in reference to? In my view, such statements can sound prejudical or stereotypical if not backed up by proof.

I am in a good marriage, right now. I think. I wouldn't cheat if I could.

I still see this as LM's opinion. He has the right to his opinion. However, I still see this as his opinion.

Plus, it seems to be a negative viewpoint of marriage which, in my view, is stressed too much in today's society.

Mimi:

I think you indeed do get too caught up in my "style", rather than my "substance". That is ok, you are not the only one. I would have to echo Susan's question to you, are you questioning my statement that?:


"The fact is, people in good marriages cheat....if they can."

I think you probably missed the point here. If I would have phrased it rather: " People in good marriages cheat...if they can" ...would you still be questioning this? You can learn more about this statement right here on marriagebuilders.com/forums. It is all here in black and white. Yes, this statement does not fit your situation, but to deny that it does happen, would be kind of ignorant, don't you think?

I understand your difficulty with accepting my posting style, but I really think I would be doing you no favors if I changed my style in posting to you. You don't want that I hope, because that would not be a good thing for you to want. It will not help you grow in dealing with people "like me".....whatever that means... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Once again, it is all good. We are all learning here everyday.

Cheers,

LM

Pep said:



Oops, I said this PEP. Again, I was sharing MY EXPERIENCE. In my counseling, it was called MY PLAN. It was encouraged by Steve H. for me to continue MY PLAN throughout our marriage. OK, I won't call it PLAN A. However, it is a PLAN that I have to stick to... MY H has a PLAN, too. I believe that a successful marriage needs continual work, strategies and goals... whatever we want to call it.....

PEP you said:



How do you know that this is true, though? This again seems to be your opinion. What happens in the MAJORITY of situations?

Now I feel like the REBEL. You know what, that's OK. I AM A REBEL GODDESS!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

YEP, LM!

You got it. You understand what I am saying now. It's THE FACT part of your statement. I admitted to getting caught up in your style. However I strongly beliveve in the concept of denial. I was very much guilty of that. For many years before MB's and my FWH's A, I could do no wrong and he was the BAD HUSBAND. I was unwilling to acknowlege my frailties and my contribution to our marital problems...

You said:



I agree that it happens. However, what happens in the majority of situations? What is the general trend?

I certainly wouldn't want you to change your posting style. I feel that I can grow from you. I was just "sharing with you". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just as an aside—the “Plan A for life” problem stems from the difference between a technical Plan A and the recommended strategy for keeping your marriage happy by meeting EN and avoiding LB.

Ideally, marriage should be two spouses, each meeting each other’s EN and avoiding LB. That’s the Harley plan for marriage in general. Plan A is also described as meeting the EN needs of the WS that you can, and avoiding LB. But here’s the catch—Plan A means doing these things *in the face of LB from your WS and without any expectation of getting your own EN met.* It applies only to infidelity, and is a strategy for affair recovery, not a lifetime plan for marriage. Hence the recommended limited time frame. And on to Plan B, if needed.

Meeting your spouse’s EN and avoiding LB for life in order to keep your marriage safe and happy is an excellent idea, but it assumes you and your spouse are both doing it. Then it is NOT technically Plan A as defined by Harley. It's recovery.

egg-zak-lee !

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Logic 101. Lemonman is not saying ALL people in good marriages cheat if they can -- he is saying it happens!

And we all know it does!

Mimi, I think you are nit picking.

Lemonman did not say "FACT is, ALL good people in marriages cheat if they can."

He didn't even say SOME people in good marriages cheat if they can.

He certainly didn't say YOU would if you could.

He is making a good point...and you missed the forrest for the tree!

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

And why do you question that it is wrong? and what difference does MAJORITY make if it does happen? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

OK. OK. I agree LM does make a good point.

This is really not a big deal to me. Does it sound like it is?

LM seems to understand that I was mainly referring to his STYLE.

HE SAID:



Some of you may be having issues with MY STYLE. That's OK with me.

I do not feel the need to duke this out.

I am tiptoeing slowly away from this.

I want to say I'm sorry for sharing that observation with LM but he seems to understand and agree with my viewpoint of his style...

Did anybody notice that I acknowledged my strong bias towards the MB SYSTEM? I hoped that would explain my viewpoint.

This is MIMI, not feeling understood again, but I am not feeling wounded today.... just tiptoeing away from this......

I was not trying to ATTACK LM. I'm sorry if it seemed like I did.

I would just like to make a very minor point here; where SH is concerned. After reading his books,…books written in the most general terms and intended to provide a philosophy rather then a definitive road map, folks tend to get this strange impression that SH is some evangelical purist who defends the saving of marriages, at any and all costs, no matter what. And I’m sorry but I never got that impression from him at all. In fact I found him to be totally pragmatic in his approach to destroying infidelity at its root.

The man simply provides a strategy for folks who want to save their marriage, and the problem is that applying his principals some times requires professional coaching. This is not a do it yourself activity after all.

My advice to anyone who is in this spot (the cheating place) and wants to really know what SH thinks….? Call him and ask! Da!

Coach