I don't see that as a problem at all LordsLady...I'm one of those that likes that so I know there are many of us that do...

How to say this without being crude? I like small ones...always have...maybe that's MY genetic predisposition?

Interesting conversation.

Anyway, I've seen your picture LL, I don't know why the dating thing is a problem but I assure you it isn't your looks OK?

RebornMan

LL,

I can only speak for myself, but I would MUCH prefer a woman with NATURAL t!ts "the size of a 10 year olds" that a woman with ANY type of implants.

I just find implants revolting...I know women are getting them left and right, but I think I am a rarity in the male species. There have to be more men out there like me...I think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

My .02

WNB

I guess I find some of the comments above slightly reassuring. But where are the guys around here who feel that way. I've always maintained, I'd rather be overweight (not necessarily obese) and have curves than be thin like I am and have none. Yes, I could put on weight, but from the little I've put on over the years, I know exactly where it goes. Not where I want it! So I don't put it on.

Maybe I come across as insecure (maybe because I am!) and that's why no one notices me. But having dealt with 23 years of a man obcessed with DDD's (his first OW had HUGE ones, though she was also fairly heavy. This current OW, or rather fiance now, is more my size physically, but she has very nice sized (probably B-C) breasts, and when he first started seeing her, he told me she was "small".) If she's small, I'm nonexistent.

I get where I think maybe I'm okay the way I am, and then I'll read things where men have written in and they agree that size DOES matter (that's where I got the suggestion to not try and go with groups of women to meet guys but to meet them on an internet site, because if you go in a group and they are all normal-sized and I'm not, I don't stand a chance). Or guys around me will make comments just about other women, and it's obvious that breast size is very important to most men.

I have come very close to considering implants. But having researched a lot of cosmetic surgery photos on line, I've also seen some very bad jobs. And I carry very little fat around my ribs and on my chest, so I think my implant lines would be very noticable. I don't want that either. (If you have nothing, you can't get implants because they'll show, but if you have something already, you can get them made even bigger and it works, because there's enough flesh to hide things. Not fair..)

And then just the health implications... So far, I've talked myself out of them. Right not it's not financially an option. But I'd give a lot sometimes to be able to put on a cute little camisole or nice swimsuit, or just a shapely summer dress and be able to fill it out.

I think I obcess more in summer because the clothes are more revealing and so I am reminded more frequently that I am not normal. In the winter, when we here in the midwest are all hidden under heavy sweaters and coats, I don't think about it as much.

And yes, there are padded bras to help people like me. And I do wear them when needed. But I'm a little worried about wearing too much of one, or wearing them all the time because it's almost like false advertising. If I did meet someone and he thought I was one way, and then found out I wasn't what he tought I was, that doesn't seem fair either. At least with a weight issue, you don't have the temptation to hide who you are, because you can't.

Anyway, they are two different extremes, but equally frustrating, because we all want so badly to believe that looks don't matter, but we know in reality they do. It's just a matter of finding the right person for whom they are not item #1 on the list.

Back to the weight issue though: I do think metabolism plays a big part in weight gain. As I said, I have always been slender. And it's not because I watched what I ate, at least not in my 20's. I do now. But some women eat like birds and still gain just because they have a slow metabolism. And yes, it does slow down as we age. I am experiencing this.

But I think lack of exerice is a big key for most people, probably more so than overeating (unless you live at fast food restaurants). Years ago, people were lighter. Granted, we didn't have all the fast food places, but we also weren't as sedentary. So many of us have desk jobs now, and we work long hours at them. We don't walk to work, we don't have to walk far to our cars. We don't live on farms where whe exercise. And I think those extra calories that we're not burning because we aren't active enough make a big difference.

Hi LL!!

Just a quick suggestion. If this is a real concern for you, you may consider the brava system. It is nonsurgical and some women have had really good luck with it. I am not saying there is anything wrong with you, but if you feel that larger breasts may give you more confidence and help you feel better about your appearance, there is nothing wrong with doing what you can.

I am very sorry for your exH's hurtful comments.

Hi LL:

All the hullabaloo about large, fake breasts is - overinflated ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Sorry - couldn't resist.

Seriously - I strongly prefer natural. And to be honest, size doesn't matter to me. Never did. It's all about being secure with what you've got. (There will always be women with larger breasts than you and those with smaller breasts than you. No big deal!) I urge you to disregard corporate America's billion dollar marketing campaign's for implants/large breasts and stick to your beliefs. There are plenty of good men who choose women on merits other than their bra size. So stop giving any power to those men and start looking for the men who will love you, and your breast size.

Go and find yourself a nice-fitting bathing suit that you feel good in, and wear it well this summer. Exuding confidence (self-love) in yourself will draw more (healthy) attention than any surgery can provide. Guaranteed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

FR

Just like on the thread about bad boys the trait that some many people find attractive, men & women alike, is confidence. Big, small, tall, short, bald, long hair, etc...if you can walk into a room knowing you have value, that you don't need another's positive opinion to feel good about yourself, you are attractive.

I've heard positive comments about particular characteristics, but the two most common & consisitant are about confidence & sense of humor.

I'm sure many have noticed that a person atractiveness is directly related to personality. Once you get to know them, if they have no heart or are selfish, demanding, spoiled, they don't even look attractive anymore.

I have to weigh in on this weight discussion. (Pun intended!!)

I have a neighbor lady who often bemoans the fact that she doesn't have many dates and has fewer second dates. She is one of those people who can honestly be described as having a few extra pounds. Also, she is not very fit as she gets little exercise, so she does not carry the extra weight as well as a woman who was more fit.

But, her real problem is her hair. She has very short hair that is above the ears on the side. She gets these fancey and probably very expensive haircuts that obviously take a lot of skill to maintain but just emphasize the fact that her hair is so short.

I have tried gently hinting that men like longer hair on women. She would look so much better if her hair was at least long enough to cover her ears, IMHO. But, I am sure after she gets her hair done, her girlfriends gather around her and tell her she looks so good in it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I was just cruising by and had to comment on this...


From my experience, I realized that most of the women that I knew very well in my lifetime dressed for other women. NOT to be attractive to men. I learned that these women would dress a certain way in order to impress other women.

My XW was exactly that way. I have asked her about wearing something, makeup or hair a certain way, and was met with comments that she didn't want women thinking that she was not "in style".

So...I think that deep down a LOT of women dress to impress (look better) than other women. Not to DIRECTLY impress males.

My 2 cents


hcii

Which begs the next question...what is it that men want in a woman when it comes to what she looks like and how she dresses? I know it depends on the woman's age, but say, a woman in her late 30's to early 40's. What do men like to see?

(Because you're right, we women do tend to dress for other women. I do mostly because it's women who tell me how I look. My XH chose to have little input. I'd ask how I looked and without even glancing at me, like many men, he'd say "you look fine". Not very helpful...)

Of course I can only speak for my self. Seeing that I am 44, I can relate to the age range you stated...

First, let me say that in my marriage, I NEVER chose clothing or make-up for the XW. THAT was a definite no-no. She would not allow it. There were many times that certain jewelry she took back and exchanged that I had bought for her as a gift. But I WANTED to help her choose. Actually, that was something that I desired to do very much. There were many times that I would see something whether it be casual, or VERY sexy that I would have liked to see her in, and had no problem buying it regardless of price, but...no dice. She said no. My current GF will let me buy ANYTHING, and she is more than happy to wear it.

Back to the question....

I think that most men in that age range want to see a little flexibility in how a woman dresses. We don't want to see something "teenish" on a mature woman, but we definitely want to see something that doesn't make her look like our grandma.

We want more of dressing when you don't have to. In other words, even though it may be a day where all one is gonna do is lounge around the house, we don't wanna live a life of what we see most is PJ's, or old "comfy" clothing. Have something on for us when we get home from work just as though you are getting ready to go out. (You probably wouldn't have it on long, anyway! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />)

Wear what you do wear with confidence. Regardless. Men for the most part HATE the routine, "I look terrible in this. This makes me look fat. This makes me look blah, blah, blah." Put it on, be confident. I guess what I am trying to say is put as much effort into us seeing you at the end of the day as you would if someone ELSE is gonna see you. You don't have to do it EVERY day, but...at least do it some when it is obvious that you have done that for ME! When you are trying to impress ME!

I think that most people would agree that men are very visual. That has been discussed many times. Nice clothing, doesn't have to be provocative, hair nice, make-up if you wear it, will get a rise out of me (pun intended) quicker a lot of times faster than nudity.

There are a couple of items of clothing (casual) that I love to see my GF in. I have made it clear to her what those are. She accepts that with grace (doesn't argue about it - THAT is a key hint!), and makes it a point to let me enjoy seeing her in it.

I can honestly say that my current GF would let me choose ALL of her clothing, and she will wear it without much resistance. I never had that before, and believe me, from my perspective, that is AWESOME! She has stated to me many times that all I have to do is buy it, and she will wear it. She definitely dresses to please ME! She truly understands the "visual" concept. She would tell you that she is rewarded nicely as well! With constant compliments among other things. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey...I even highlighted her hair for her!

Please your MAN's eyes! Not your friends eyes. I think that too many times that is a very simple thing, that becomes a difficult task for some reason.

So...Dress up for your SO every now and then even when there is NO reason. Try to dress and wear your hair and make-up for HIS eyes occasionally. Be a little sexy and provocative when you are with him. Don't...EVER...argue or make a fuss about something that HE likes. If he says you look good in it, if it is his favorite, wear it with a smile!

hcii

It's funny you mention hair Justin. I have long hair but I'm often tempted to cut it all off because it can be easier. Then I remember how easy it is to just put my hair up.

Not all women have hair they can grow long though. My sisiter for instance has grown her hair long, I assume because her H prefers it this way. Her hair is like fluff & really doesn't compliment her face when it's long. I've often wondered: Are men able to separate the face from the hair? Do the see them separately/ Is it just the fact that the hair is long that has some feminine appeal?

I can let my hair grow long and sit at home, because it won't stay looking nice once I'm out and about - no matter what I do. And it's not for lack of trying - as I too like long hair better than short. OR I can keep it at a length and style that I can easily maintain, and can be blown by the wind, combed quickly, and still look good.

I like to do things and go places, and not feel like a Barbie doll. Therefore, long hair is not for me.

I believe that if a man isn't willing to consider what it takes to maintain a particular look, he is not the right man for me.

Heh. Funny you should mention this, since that is precisely what I consider.

What I find most attractive on a woman is a simple hairstyle, a minimal amount of makeup, an understated use of jewelry, short unpainted fingernails (and toenails), and a practical individualistic wardrobe. I like to see that a woman understands something of how her hairstyle and her clothing choices flatter her face, coloration, and figure; but I also like to see that her values don't run to a lot of time spent primping.

Well, you just boosted my hopes that there are more men out there like you!

You just described me! I used to wear makeup years ago, but quit. There has been much discussion on this board why women who don't wear it don't care about their looks, or about pleasing their SO. I quit wearing it for three reasons: 1) my H didn't like makeup, 2) I am allergic to it - even the so-called hypo-allergenic stuff, and 3) it takes tons of time, and when I was skiing or waterskiing, it was always getting rubbed off anyway.

Ditto with hair - trying to find something that holds up outside in the rain and wind - as I spend lots of time in that setting, mostly for dog events. Tracking, agility, judging - are all outside activities. That I can also make look decent for work. These are my main concerns.

Oh yes, and these activities are not conducive to nail polish either!

Deja,

And since you are not spending a ton of time on your personal appearance (makeup, nails, etc), I am willing to bet your house is a lot cleaner and more pleasing than mine is.

I am guilty of the opposite. Granted, I don't spend much time on my hair and my makeup (maybe a combined total of 15 minutes per morning), but it does take time at least once per day.

And there is NO hairstyle that will hold up to rain or humidity in my hair! It just becomes a mess of wavy frizz. I used to try and straighten out the waves and I had my hair below my shoulders. That took forever and as soon as humidity hit it, it all went wavy again. I've had it really short--above my ears. Women are very complimentary, but I don't really care for it that way, it's very tough to maintain, and I got the feeling my husband didn't like it. Generally I keep it between my chin and shoulders (probably not what a guy would consider long), and right now I'm letting the waves pretty much do their thing. It's easier.

But I have an obcession with clothes/shoes. It is insane. I've spent all day today trying to do my laundry, and I'm still not nearly done because everything requires special care. Part of it comes from needing "business", "business casual", "Friday casual" (not permitted at my new job), true casual clothes, and grubbies for working in the house or out in the yard. And then there are all the shoes....

I used to have acrylic nails. I have just my natural nails now, but I do keep them painted in an attempt to grow them a little longer than just the tip of my fingers. I paint my toenails in the summer, too.

I have been guilty of wearing some pretty trashy things (generally very large, ratty t-shirts) to bed when married. I didn't wear sexy things because it seemed each time I did, my husband made it a point to be asleep before I got to bed. So it's just been pj's for me.

But even on weekends, unless I am doing major housecleaning, I generally don't bumble around the house in my grubbies and with unshowered bedhead much later than noon on Saturday (and earlier on Sunday because I go to church). I may not exactly look chic if I'm just going out to Target, but I am at least dressed in a decent t-shirt and jeans.

For us, it was the opposite problem. I'd get up and look decent, but my XH would come home from work on a Friday night (he's an automotive technician so was always greasy and grungy), strip down to his welder-hole-filled t-shirt and baggy briefs, and just lay on the couch playing video games all weekend...not shower, not do anything, unless we were going out to eat on a Saturday night. It used to really frustrate me, because I did what I could to at least try and appear clean and well-kempt for him, and in return I got nothing.

But about the clean house (which appears to be high on the needs list for most men), mine is usually in various stages of disarray partly because I'm disorganized in general, partly because I work into the evening, and probably also because I spend too much time on my clothes (buying, washing, staring at thinking I have nothing to wear), my makeup and hair, my nails, haircuts/coloring, etc. It's sort of a catch-22--which is more important, well-kempt house or well-kempt person. For some reason, I don't seem to be able to pull off both at the same time.

Hello everyone.

I am not normally active on this board, but this topic is one I feel inclined to "weigh"in on(nyuk, nyuk).

Personally, I have been drawn to women of almost every physical description. My preference tends to be to plus-sized ladies, tho. And clean and well-groomed trumps any other concern. You know, fingernails of mostly the same length...hair that doesn't look like it is inhabited...recently showered...you get the idea.

I think it may be that a few extra pounds(few being anywhere from 5-100), together with an easy smile, implies someone who is more concerned with enjoying themselves than trying to hold to what are often ludicrous standards of beauty, according to our society. Gets my attention in a way that a perfect figure, right down to no wrinkles just does not.

I once dated a lady who worked as a model...she paid great attention to how she SMILED (!) in an attempt to minimise the appearence of smile lines as she aged. Her looks were pleasant, sure. But her smarts and quick wits were what drew me to her, and kept me with her while we were together.

After D-Days, I took some time to re-evaluate what I wanted in a partner, in case we weren't able to work past things (so far, so good, on that. One day at a time, with the good ones outnumbering the bad ones about 2 to 1). At any rate, I realised something...if I were just looking to "have my ashes hauled", my physical standards are moderately specific. However, in looking for something deeper...for me at least, the pleasures of the flesh are more enhanced by WHO(honesty, integrity, character, sense of humor, etc.) I am sharing them with than WHAT (breasts of particular size, weight within parameters..the physical package) I am sharing them with. Not to mention the importance of the other 22 hours of any given day...while one CAN have a conversation with a woman's breasts, it is almost always unproductive for all parties <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I guess my point is, for men and women alike...would you really WANT anything long term with someone who was very drawn to you by appearence? I mean, looks change for a lot of reasons...and age happens to everyone(if we are fortunate, at least).

Not to say looks are UNimportant...but the relevance to me is more in what appearance implies about the person, than a matter of pure aesthetics. I don't think I am alone here, although I might be wrong.

Just something I have chewed on(geez, I can't stop with the bad puns...forgive me).

And for the record, I top 6 feet and am somewhere above 260 lbs, I would guess. Not to mention spear bald, since around age 20. And I can honestly say that my looks have never been held against me by anyone whose opinion mattered to me in the slightest <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-OAK

ok, more male input. About dress. Well, other than enviromental protection, dress (includes the whole enchilda, jewelery, body art, make-up, hairstyling, smells...etc.) is about 2 things IMO.

1. Personal feelings, how "I" percieve myself, regardless of what others think...though for me personally, that is mostly about simple comfort. For others, maybe having body adornment makes them feel part of a group...or for women dressing revealingly somehow makes them feel more sexy, which is a self-esteem issue for many females (more so then males, we just know we are sexy...chuckling...).

2. Or it is to communicate. Identify us as part of a group, or indicator of our values, goals. To attract the opposite sex. To project a purpose (uniforms, whether formal or not)..and so forth. I am not going to write a study about dress, just ad"dress" the attraction issue.

IMO one should (if seeking/keeping a mate) use all the tools available as efficiently as possible (unless one just likes wasting time, which can never be replaced). Those who don't realize this reveal themself as somewhat metally deficient, which may be deal-breaker right off....or possibly just demonstrate they are narcissistic...anyways, whatever the hang-up, when a woman tells me she doesn't care what I like, is gonna dress for herself, I say thank-you and move on...bad attitude in sooooooo many ways. btw, most of what I am saying her has analogous application to males, I am just looking at it from a male standpoint.

I do understand there can be conflicting needs. A woman may have to dress a certain way for work enviroment, or other scenarios, to accomplish laudable goals...that is understood, but otherwise I would expect her to dress for me, the way I want her too...and why not, I am the one looking at her, unless she spends a lot of time in front of the mirror, which of course would be not so good.

This is where it gets tricky. If a woman has a man, and is not "looking", is exclusive, then dress for him. If she is looking, and dating around, then she should dress in a way that attracts the kind of man she seeks. If she dresses revealingly, or even like a tramp..well, don't be surprised that many of the men hitting on you will be basically looking for easy sex, that is what you are advertising for. You are saying look at me, I am hotter than the other women. A woman when confronted with this observation will often say (in an angry manner) no I'm not, I am just fashionable, or my female friends think I look great, or even (if honest) that they are competeing with other women for male attention. Well, they can say what they want, but how males think/respond is going to dictate their dating experiences..so it don't make much difference what she thinks, the clothes say it all.

This creates a conundrum for women who do understand this, they know we (males) are visully oriented, so they know they have to make some statement about their sexuality (which includes revealing their curves to some degree, as well as some signal about their sexual enthusiasm), or they are also not going to attract healthy males, but other kinds of losers. I don't have the answers, but I will say what attracts me in this regard. I like looking at women who dress trashy (which basically means leaveing little to the imagination), but I would never date them. They are either of low moral fiber, or needy and insecure to the point of having to attract males in the most base way possible. Perhaps they are very secure, and just like flaunting what they have as a competition with other woman, that is also unattractive, I generally don't like people (male or female) who depend on their appearance for their self-image, or social standing. So where does trashy end, and stylsih begin? Like beauty, or art, or obscenity...such things are in the eye of the beholder, and are somewhat socially determined. What I find conservative today, may have been outrageous in puritan new england for example.

But I think we can suggest a general social standard at most times. Clearly in america today we are in a sexual frenzy, and TV, advertising , styles, etc celebrate sexual attraction. I am not going to debate the stupidity of this, just noting it. But the result is unless one wants to make a statement which includes ignoring the social clime, is unlikely any woman is going to choose to wear clothes that cover her arms, legs, hair and curves, unless she is Amish, Islam, or some such. On the other hand, dressing so your breasts are hanging out, your butt (and thong) is hanging out (or skirts are just below pubic area), and your midriff is hanging out...is selling sex, not attractiveness. IMO a woman (unless at the beach) is best served by wearing clothes which suggest her shape (but not skin tight), and cover her from breast to mid-thigh. Other than that, I guess things like bare upper body, arms, legs, hair and such are a matter of personal choice. But IMO this balance of revealing appearance vs exciting sexual responses in males reflects our current societal values, without making iniitial attraction all about sexual pursuit...the worst way to meet a guy IMO, is to have one say boy you are really hot, wanna go out.

Personally (the former is more of a member of society opinion about what makes for a healthy enviroment), I prefer fairly consevatively (by today's standards) dressed women. Hopefully the colors, stykles, fit flatter ones natural assets..that just tells me a person is serious about the whole dating thing, and smart enuf to address it. I like bare shoulders, I don't like cleavage (just a hint). I like a reasonably snug derierre, but not skin tight pants. I like skirts/dresses just above knee, not mini. I like form fitting tops, but not tight, want the suggestion of her curves, not a "nude" photograph, and I like the same with her hips/waist etc. not a tent, or totally loose...but I understand if one has a few pounds there, gonna be disguised some (I have done the same...smile...). What such dress says to me, is a woman who knows she is a woman, that appearance attracts men, so is willing to reveal her basic assets, but is not interested in simply turning men on..wants them to get to know her smarts, her personality, and so forth....so hopes not to attract turned on males, who she is just gonna have to fend off, and waste time with.

Women seem (sometimes) to think they won't be hit on if they aren't fairly sexy...THAT IS NOT TRUE, what will happen is you will be hit on less, but that is cause those guys are chasing your sisters selling sexual attraction as their main hook. You will however attract better quality prospects, meaning guys who for whatever other reason, want to get to know you...for you, not just for your body (but saw enuf of your body to be attracted that way also).

Women lament endlessly about how men they date want sex almost immediately....is a huge problem, having many explanations...but I can't help but wonder, what part of this phenomena has to do with how the woman dressed to attract men in the first place...anything to reduce this seems desireable IMO, and dressing "conservatively" is a step in the right direction. As for a woman dressing for other women, or to feel "good" about herself....well, I am not impressed, and see that as of dubious real emotional value, more like a bandaid for more serious issues which are not being addressed. As the other guys have said, yes we are visually motivated, but that is by no means the only thing that motivates us, or even the most important thing. I too am attracted to any woman who is basically fit and healthy. I have my preferences in body type, hair length, breasts (though the range is substantial, and I am less attracted by large breasts...small ones have no negative issues either), height, shape etc. But other than hair (and I think a woman reduces her attractiveness if hair is too short, and that is a choice), and losing weight to be fit for YOUR type, there is little one can do so why worry about it? Chemistry is chemistry, and plenty of men will be attracted to you for whatever mysterious reasons chemistry is about. From there it is all about temperament, personality, likes/dislikes, relationship skills, etc. So IMO being as authentic as possible, and correcting our psychological shortcomings is where we should work the hardest.


As for makeup, the less the better, I don't like it, I prefer natural, but I understand a little work here is a good thing. Jewelery, body adornment...also very little. I do not like ostentaion, or "displays"...it says things about a persons psychology that bothers me. Small earings (not big dangling ones), a couple rings (that mean something), no body pierceings (other than ear lobes)..and a nice selection of necklaces etc. is interesting, and look good on a woman. Bracelets...nah, clothing pins etc...maybe, depends. Hair jewelery, yeah, works for me. But the point of all of this, should be that the adornment makes sense, says something, or is flattering...should not be about vanity, or what others think, and so forth...is feminine to adorn, and I like that, but not when gets to be the whole focus. Tatoos etc. leave me somewhat confused, on males or females....I would have to think about it on a case by case basis, why, what is the effect, etc. But I think better of ones that are not permanent, the concept of disfiguring ones body permanently that way bothers me.

One more thing, my comments are in the social enviroment, attracting males...in private I would be receptive to, and enjoy my wife dressing more revealingly, or even provocatively...that is the place for women to dress that way and feel sexy, or just enjoy the intimacy ...when only their H gets to see...not on display for rest of the male world to drool over. In public, I think the wife should dress pretty much as her H wants her too (unless it is revealingly, if he feels that way, he has problems and is objectifying her...not a good thing), but also she should be free to dress sometimes as she wants too. I always tell women what I like, and expect that makes a difference to them. I do the same in return. I will wear whatever a woman wants me too, within reason, and circumstance. People who don't care what their so/spouse think in these regards reveal themselves as selfish and proably not good mates, they just don't get it.

One last thing about hair and frizzing if long. Another complex subject. Had such a friend, she straightened and shortened her hair, we were not a couple, so ok, she was experimenting....asked me, I said it made her look 10 years older, and I liked her curly frizzy hair. So ladies, don't assume your female assessments about your hair, reflect what the males think...we like long hair, usually. And if yours is completely wild, what about ponytails, pigtails, and various braids? BTW I do think if a male likes long hair on his woman, he needs to also like combing it, and washing it for her..

To answer the orginal question... (yes I am bored today)

Yes, I have found them more "attractive", but typically I still can't get around being physically nonattracted to them to make a relationship work.

I've tried relationships with ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL women who I haven't been particularly attracted to. I thought I was being shallow and tried to look past the outside. But honestly, it just doesn't work. Physical attraction is an EN that I just need to have met at a higher priority than other EN's.

Now, that being said, there is a fairly wide window of what I consider to be attractive with a smaller window of what I find REALLY attractive. AND, there is a fairly wide window of women who are considered attractive by society's standard that I don't.

But to answer the question, yes, for me there needs to be some physical attraction from the beginning (unless she changes the equation) in order to make a relationship work.

These kinds of discussions sicken me. They serve to feed and reflect stereotypic thinking, which typically involves prejudice, judgemental attitudes, sweeping generalizations and ego. There's just too little we know about the human body, brain, psyche, spirit, etc., to draw conclusions that fit all people! I would rather error on the side of "giving the benefit of the doubt" to someone, than to label them in a negative or critical manner based on generalities.

Remember, at one time it was thought that African-Americans were nothing other than property. They were considered ignorant, unintelligent, childlike, etc.

People who were mentally ill were considered to be possessed by the devil.

Individuals who were mentally retarded were considered to be useless, lost causes who should be thrown into institutions to live. It was a "waste" to try and train or educate them.

Women were considered to be silly, "too delicate" to trouble their pretty little brains about politics, world affairs, medicine, education, etc.

In some Native American tribes, the women were the leaders...the wise ones...not the males.

As most immigrant groups came into our country they were seen as "less than", lower class status, etc. because their cultural backgrounds were different, because they were poor.

Various religious denominations claim that their's is the only way to God, or Nirvana, or.........Each as adament as the other. Killing in the name of their "God" to destroy "evil non-believers".


Women who had knowledge of wholistic, natural, herbal healing techniques were burned at the stake or drowned for being "witches".

Caucasian males..politicians...citizens..leaders...pursued the idea of "Manifest Destiny", taking and abusing land and natural resources from people such as Native American tribes. Herding these people into reservations like animals. Stripping their cultural and spiritual practices...beliefs. Sending them to boarding schools where they were often molested, were forced to cut their hair, punished for speaking their native language, raised by white families because their own were "heathens".

I had gone to a neurologist at one time to assist in diagnosing a health problem. I had an MRI done. The neurologist said to me "Heartmending....nothing showed up on the MRI, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem. It just may mean that we haven't developed the technology to detect it yet." So when I make a decision, determination, about the "cause" of anything, e.g., obesity, how can I be certain that it's accurate?

I agree that if someone doesn't find obesity, or large or small breast, or style of dress, or hair length to be attractive or desireable, why not just leave it at that???? Why attach all sorts of labels and judgments about the individual to these traits? What purpose do these negative, judgmental attitudes serve??? If you believe something to be a certain way...fine! But is it really necessary to be so critical of others?

My ego...self-esteem..etc. is my business and responsibility. At the same time, I also recognize that I and many others on this site are struggling with feelings of self-doubt and shame. When someone is down...wounded...I don't need to plunge another sword of judgment and negativity into them. It may be their responsibility to take care of themselves, protect themselves, heal themselves, but I don't need to attack and worsen their wounds.

What can I do or say that will help encourage someone on this site? How can I share something in the most loving manner? Can I keep my mouth shut if I don't agree with someone...out of love and respect for another human being...not necessarily because I agree with them?? Is it more important for me to prove I'm "right", or another is "wrong", than to act in a loving manner?

Just because I have the "right" to say or do something, doesn't make it "right", or the loving thing to do.