He's asking what he can do to come back. Rather than just tell him you want him to talk to SH, why not make it more specific:
"I want you to talk to SH so we can develop a plan for you to come back, one that involves us applying MB principals (you can spell them out -UA, POJA, PORH, etc.) I've seen no indication our current MC can help us do that."

If he resents you, he resents you. But he's asking what he can do. It's pointless to try to think up the answer you think he's willing to hear-give him the truth. Otherwise you'll end up resenting him, and that's hardly an improvement over him resenting you.

Thank you mimi and elspeth, WILL do!

And I will do more of focusing on self now too. Just so hard when I am worried about mine and kids future. And the state of the world as we know it...

Thanks again, you are ALL so helpful (even you, SHMI):)
jls

In the ways he reminds me of my H is that he wants to be in control, but will confound the situation and FORCES you to make the decisions so he can rebel against them.

My H was continually asking my advice, yet working on his own plan seeming to undermine whatever I had planned.

I'll give an example.

On many trips we would go on, he would seem to be behind it 100%, and then the day of the trip, he would drag his feet, snarl and snap at everyone until we would leave late, be silent in the car, and when we would get there seem to pout. Up til the time of the trip I would start planning it by asking where he would want to go...he would continually refer back to me "I don't care, wherever you want to go..." And as I plan the trip, would continually ask his advice about where, when, etc... He would be non-committal, or agree with all my ideas. Then after we got there, or after the trip I would hear "I never really wanted to do...."

These were the major events, but our life was strewn with smaller events like this ("What do you want for dinner...?", etc)

He felt so out of control in his life, this was the only way he felt he could maintain control, in an underhanded way. To his credit, he didn't realize he was doing it. It was a defense technique he had used nearly his entire life. He felt out of control, and blamed ME for his unhappiness (how convenient). I eventually had to move to Plan B (even though I didn't think there was contact) just to remove myself from his unhappiness...

We had to undergo some MAJOR changes when we started recovery...it began with education (read that article, it helped us both).


I also agree, get him to SH, no matter how...he resents you for everything anyway...let him resent you for what you think is best, rather than other things. There is no way you can win in his mind...and it is not about what he thinks. You be the best person you know how to be...for YOU. You will NEVER please him...

SHMI,

That story has been ours! My H will do EGGZactlee that same thing! I don't know how much you've read of my story (ies), but you could have stolen that one.

for example, in MC, years ago, I stated that I thought my H had some resentments that he was not sharing..but he made sarcastic comments about these things and then would backtrack and say he was kidding. Like our swimming pool, the heater for the pool, the farm, the horses.... He told the MC that I was just making a big deal out of nothing. These things did NOT bother him, he said, and since I had been treated for depression in thepast, I was just oversensitive. These SAME things were the things he was so UNHAPPY about that he was talking to "himself" about when I taped him - about 2 yrs after the MC talk.

Right before the recording incident happened, we got our kitchen redone. He wanted to, his idea. I would have used our refi money on something else, but I agreed. Well, we went round and round about what "We" wanted in the kitchen. I got the brochures out for about 3 months, trying to get his opinion. He finally said to do whatever. I didn't accept this at first, but he would not make any decisions at all. When we separated for a week, he brought up that I had gotten "my" way on the kitchen, as always. I really did not force any ideas down his throat and tried so hard to get ANY opinion from him..This is how he works..?!

Dinner is like this, EVERYTHING is like this. And then he does the poor poor him thing after all is said and done. Martyr bigtime, it gets soo frustrating. I really try not to get drawn into all this - how do you not?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yes, yes, yes...that is the question, how do you NOT.

Passive-aggresives, and how they work.

They are SOOOoooo afraid of conflict and being controlled that they will sit on the sidelines and play puppet master. They have gotten QUITE good at it. Will confound a situation until they have you SPITTING mad...then they have WON. It is a contest to them...a competition.

How do you get out from under it...

Read the article above, and ask him to read it. Both of you read it together. Print it out and read it once a week. You can read about the Passive-Aggresive Man.

There is a GOOD chance he doesn't realize he is doing it.

Some things to remember. It is a defense. It can be useful (for instance, you may want to bite your tongue and not engage your boss, and then perform a project the best way YOU know how...) but when overused can be harmful to your relationships. PA people are often miserable and don't realize their part they paly in their own misery (blame everyone and everything else).

My H and I are working on this. It has taken learning about PA, both he and I. And it has taken me calming my anger, and being hypervigilant when I see some PA behaviors.

In the beginning it was quite frustrating, and I would leave the situation, only to come back later to the same thing again. But over time, and with reminders, we have both changed our habits enough that we are happier and more at peace.

Some things we have done.

In a conversation I will no longer accept "I don't know", "What do you want me to say", "I don't want to talk about this now", or changing the subject. I will say to him, "I want to know what you want", and point out when he is using a stall tactic. If we make plans I will talk with him about the plans and make sure he is 100%, absolutely excited about it, or else I do it alone...

One thing that seems to hang us up is when I ask him to do a chore and he will stall/procrastinate. I now have gotten to the point of very sweetly saying, "OK, you seem too busy to do..., I will go ahead and do it." He will often get angry and stomp off and do it.

There would be times when he would talk or treat me disrespectfully, but not quite bad enough to warrant me getting mad...just raising his voice out of hte blue. I now don't accept ill-treatment of any kind. I will say, "I don't deserve to be talked to that way...or treated that way."

The goal of the PA is to confound and get the other person angry. Take your anger out of it. Remind him when he is sidestepping a situation.

It took quite a bit of talking and habit changing...but almost a year later, and *I think* we are better.

Thanks SHMI,

I emailed the article to him and asked him to please read it and discuss it with me. I read it and bookmarked it twice. I spoke with H and he said that he got it and would discuss it with me later, but since i have to work 2nite, maybe 2moro. I gently stated that I was not trying to "throw" things at him by emailing it, I just thought it was food for thought.

AND I talked to him about SH. He will probably call and make appt. in the next day or 2.

Thanks for all your comments and your help.

I am still considering going to Plan B, if necessary. Could you direct me to some of your old posts/story so I could see how you handled it, even tho there was no contact. Did you address his behavior mostly? If SH directs me to Plan B or I decide to go there for my own sanity, I am preparing. What I am not ready for, is to go back to our old M.

Thanks again, your ideas were very helpful. I try to leave anger out, but that darn anger comes sneaking back in after a period of time, during arguments esp.! I MUST try harder. He always apologizes, without addressing the issue. My AO overwhelm him and enable him to make me the "bad" guy. As I am, so to speak.

jls

Why don't you call and make the Steve H. appt. since he says he's willing to do it?

Old posts, Aaaack, not sure if I could find them, let's see if I can reproduce my story here.

I am a type A, take control, very social type person, who tends to nag to get what I want. FWH is a fun-loving, conflict avoider, slightly immature, also social creature. We were a complete setup for PA/Shrew. I hated the way I was turning into a resentful, nagging wife. And he seemed to be the incredible shrinking man. The more I nagged for attention, the less he gave it to me.

Porn usage was common early on, and I was OK with it, till our DS was born and could reach the toilet, then I wanted it out of reach. It seemed the more I asked him to move it, the more he left it out...VERY PA.

He would hide his porn habits, and when he was under stress, he would use (can you say 'drug'?) I asked him to be honest...I really didn't care, just wanted it to be kept away from the children...but he took it as an attack against him, that I wanted him to stop.

After about 7-8 years of this constant battle (he got VERY obnoxious about leaving signs of porn habits around...very 'in your face') I finally just asked him to stop it. That is when, I think, he started the on-line chatting, and trying to meet up with women.

This went on for about a year, then I found scripts of IM online with pictures getting sent back and forth, and cybering. The first D-day. We worked it out, much talking, threatening D. After it was all done, he never wanted to talk about it again...which disturbed me.

The next year he met a girl out of town (but close) and they hooked up for a few dates (March 2003). I found out on their (I think) second date when I found some of the emails he sent her... That was it, I was done, I called him every name in the book, and cried SOoooo hard. He slept on the couch till he could find his own place.

Then I found MB and realized the LB/Lack of EN we had gotten ourselves into. I SOOOoooo recognized myself in the AO, and DJ LB's. I realized I wasn't happy with the way I had been treating him, so I was going to change. Was going to Plan A him...not necessarily because I wanted to keep him, but wanted to see if my behavior change made any difference in MY happiness.

It seemed to help the situation. Home was a BIT more peaceful, we were able to talk...but he was ever so surly. He had written his OW a NC email, and was sad because he thought it would make her cry. I kept up Plan A for about 2 months...writing love letters, sweet talk, admiring EVERYTHING he did, affection, SF, etc...But most especially cutting out the LB's. I was going to IC then, and one day after a session I realized I had been working SOoo hard all these years to change him, and I was DONE. I had been doing all the wrong things, but it had taken so much energy out of me, my life had been devoted to making this man better/happy, and I was tired. I cried and had given up...I think FWH was a bit scared then.

But still no change. After 2 months of Plan A I asked him to leave...move out (May 2003). I guess he had been planning for it, because he was out the next day. Interesting that that was a common threat I had ("Just move out...") and it finally came true. I realized it was time to move to Plan B. C with his OW continued. I found them online one night, both their usernames on IM. I IM them both and said something like, "I know what you are doing..." I exposed to my family, his family, friends... I wrote a flimsy Plan B letter, but it was EXTREMELY difficult to make the big switch because FWH had to come over every day to watch DS and DD (as a SAHD). He would come over in the morning, I would leave for work. He would have dinner made when I came home and wiggle his way into staying for dinner and then leave. A VERY bad Plan B...

The kids and I planned a vacation in June without dear old Dad. But he wormed his way into following down in his car and visiting HIS Dad for the week, then driving back with us...I must say I didn't mind. Nice to have backup for the drive, just in case. Before we left I gave him an even firmer Plan B letter with a list of things I needed before he could move back in... (NC, IC, MC, see a Doc about Meds, accountability and honesty with time and money). He was unhappy about the Plan B letter, said I was forcing him to do these things. I said...a turning point for us...he could choose to do whatever he wanted, *I* had to deal with whatever decision *HE* made. I was prepared for breakup or recovery, but wanted to know if he was going to follow these or not... He was angry, then something happened, and he said he would do these things...

We went on vacation (kind of without him). It was a very relaxing week without him. I realized how much saner I seemed without his confounding nature. And how much I had depended on him all these years...I could do this by MYSELF. He visited with teh grandparents during the week. Said that he had IMed the OW and told her he was through. Had an interesting talk with his Dad who said to him..."How did she find out?" and when WH said he told me, dear old grandpa said..."That was your first mistake." WH lost a great deal of respect for Dad that day (so did I.)

Things changed when we came home. He began following the steps of the Plan B letter. A NC letter was sent, he removed the IM from the computer, IC and meds...lots of talking. I asked him to move back in August 2003.

Recovery has been tough. It was a year into it that I began discovering the key piece to all this...the PA behavior. We have a MUCH more peaceful atmosphere at home. He is taking meds that help with ADD...so fewer arguments...things are better.

There are times when he will move back into selfish mode...not thinking of my needs...my Taker comes out, we may argue, but we get back on track (about once a month?) Not anything like the almost daily arguments we were having before.

I wish for you a recovery like mine.

If there is anything I can tell you to do...it is to become the kind of partner YOU can be proud of, not for him, but for YOU!!!

Boyo, this sounds like us. Separation has even been like that. He worms his way and I do kinda like it, esp the attention and the support system!

I will urge him to call SH soon and think about all this. No OW that I know of, at least not at present. I am just tired of it all. Financially tho, I am at a loss. Have been thinking about that one. Darn, I love being at home with my kids tho, at least mostly!

Anyway, will check back in later or really later, after bath, nap and work.. (won't get home til after 2:30-300 am)

Thanks for all the input, it has been VERY enlightening. I have seen myself in LBs also, have been doing better for last year+, just will continue to work on it! Hopefully WITH H, eventually.

jls

I wish I had the words to make everything better in your life.

I know I had to REALLY change my behavior...and had to do it for ME. No more trying to change him, or thinking I had to keep my guard up to make the M better...through him.

My mantra during the first year or so was, "Oh well."

That was my answer to nearly everything my H spewed at me.
"You don't beleive that I'm not having an A?"

My answer..."Oh well."

"I told you I would take out hte trash, you don't have to do it.'

My answer, "Oh well."

Etc.....

Oh well is how I feel right now.

H went to MC/IC alone 2nite. We talked about it and he said that he could go either way(lol). He said that he would talk to me about it this weekend, since I work 2moro nite. Well, we'll see. Asked him a few times about SH and counseling, then told him that I really wanted him to call SH. I'm sure that I'll have to "nag" to get him to do it, but OH WELL!

Thanks all,
jls

Why nag? There are many a S that have called SH on their own, to work with them on their own.

A conversation I might have with my FWH about this would go something like this...

"I have found some real truth in SH's MB principles. Although our MC seems to be helping, I would really like to give SH a call, I've heard he's VERY good. However the call will be very expensive, and I wanted to check with you first. If you wanted, we could forgo going to the other MC for awhile to save money and we could both talk with SH. What do you think?"

This lets the PA know that your decision does not hinge on them...they can't control it. You will do it with or without them, but you are giving them the control of what THEY will do.

This takes a radical change of thinking...

Which got me thinking today, there is a chore I've asked my H to do the past 3 days and he hasn't done it, even though he's had AMPLE time. I think I will do it tomorrow...he won't like it though. He has thrown clean clothes on the floor in front of my clothes so I have to step on and over his clothes to get to mine...oh well. No use in getting angry, I will either put them back, or bag them up and take them downstairs (not a nasty thing to do, what he commonly does with his clothes when they get overwhelming...we have entirely too many clothes).

There is NO MORE NEED TO NAG. Nagging makes you unhappy with yourself, and absolutley does NOT get your H to do anything for you... If you want something done, ask once, then do it yourself or find a way to get it done...ask a neighbor, hire a maid, ask a friend...

When I had first began changing my behavior/habits I would get very resentful and grumble..."Grr, doesn't he know how hard this is for me to take out the trash? He just wants to see me do it, that's why he won't take it out." But I realized I was making my life miserable by making it all about him...by allowing him to affect my mood...again. I did things with joy...took my emotions out of it. Would be calm when I asked for things, if I didn't get it from him, found a way to get it somehow which didn't include him...basically became more independent.

Just checking in, how's it going?

Exactly !

SS

Hey SHMI and SS,

I was just thinking about updating and there I was. Thanks soo much for asking, you don't know how much that means to me!

SHMI,



This is what I DID do. I talked to SH, and he said get H to phone with him. Been trying without nagging, but H is really NOT getting it!

Went over stuff SH said with H. Told him that I would like him to call, and I know the money thing bothers him, but it was really important to me. And I/We could forego other things in lue of the expense. (His current IC/MC is free thru EAP.) We had this convo 2X, first time a few days after I talked to SH - that was 2 weeks ago, I think. H has agreed to call, but is stalling - quite so. But still really pushing the issue of moving back in. I've been asking him almost everyday,NICELY and casually "Did you call SH today?" or "Did you call that guy today?". or "Have you thought about calling SH anymore?". And told him it's a condition to moving back in....

Be back later to rant.. gotta go charge Gameboy and give up some time to kids!

Thanks again,

jls

Yep, that's the PA for you...stringing you along.

Don't let HIM control your actions...

Set up another appt, let him know you will be calling again on...date and SH had asked to talk with him. If he wants to make himself available, GREAT! If he doesn't...oh well.
But STOP the nagging and asking...he obviously DOESN'T want to make the call.

If H isn't there at the appointment time, you can let SH know H isn't into talking to him yet, if ever. You can still work on a strategy without him...

What did you get out of the last appt?

If H mentions again about moving back in, it may be time to make a list of things that need to happen before that begins...

Respect
Talking with SH
Filling out EN's and fulfilling them

What else?

Give him a path back...