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But far too often, nonbelievers want to scoff at the "idiots" who believe in Christ and accuse them directly or by backhanded comments of having "lost their minds and their ability to reason" when they accepted Christ.


I would never ever call someone who believes in Christ an idiot. Nor would I call a follower of any other religion, or a follower of nothing, an idiot.

I was just stating my own exhasperation with Christianity and it's followers (you to be specific).

However I do have a great deal of respect for you as I already have told you because you are so steadfast in your beliefs. That is an admirable trait as long as you respect others who do not share those beliefs. Or who are unclear in their own mind what they believe.

God is love. That is my belief. In my darkest times He has been there for me. In my darkest times I have had hope because of God. And if I go to hell for being a good person and trying to leave this world a little bit better for having been here. Then so be it.

But where was He when those little kids were being kidnapped /tortured/murdered?

If you can answer the question, why did/do all those little kids have to suffer? Where was Christ, worker of miracles through God when those precious little babies were being brutalized and filled with terror before they died?

I no longer read the paper but heard another little girl was kidnapped a few days ago. Do you think God gave her some kind of peace during her horrific ordeal?

That's the problem I have with God right now. Should take it up with Him I suppose, but He never answers that question and then wham it happens to another one.

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weaver, I thought you said you were a Christian? If you are not "steadfast" in that belief, why would you BE a Christian in the first place? Why would you SAY you are a Christian? I don't understand where you are coming from.

As far as your question about why God allows bad things to happen, God allows people FREE WILL. He allows people to choose evil because he is not a cosmic puppeteer. He allows us to choose good and he allows us to choose evil.

I can't think of anything more evil than a God that put us down here, without free will, who just pulled the puppet strings and managed our every act. Would you like that? A cosmic puppet show? Would you rather have your free will removed? But what he is, is a just God, who promises retribution for evil.

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And if I go to hell for being a good person and trying to leave this world a little bit better for having been here.

Well, no one is a "good person." No one. We don't go to hell for any other reason except that we reject Jesus Christ. We all have free will. God will not drag anyone into heaven against their will.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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weaver, without free will, ie: choice, love is meaningless. God would be a cosmic rapist who forced his love on people; a cosmic puppeteer who forced people to love him. Without free will, we would be nothing more than programmed little robots. But like even you acknowledge, God is love, and because of that, he grants us the freedom of choice; the freedom to choose good or evil.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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FH,

I thought I was a Christian because I believed that God sent his only begotten son to save us from ourselves, to show that love is the only way.

My dad trained four years as a Methodist minister, but then joined the AF during the viet nam war as a search and rescue pilot to avoid being drafted. He died a very broken alcoholic. But for all those years before alcoholism got the best of him, he NEVER once said only Christians were going to heaven. He was also by the way had a degree in Chemistry, was a scientific sort and my brother is a Physicist in DC. Scientific but religious.

My mom taught Sunday school twenty years before she found gambling.

I was raised in the Presbyterian church (and sometimes on base churches), with parents who very much believed in God. But I NEVER until I was atleast 35 heard that only Christains were going to heaven.

We used to joke about Catholics in my church that they thought they were the only ones going to heaven.

That seems to be where I part ways with Christians. So you might say I thought I was a Christian but I was confused about what that meant.

And free will does explain about love Mel, but it doesn't explain why there aren't angels or something protecting little kids from evil.

And I know I sound almost childlike right now, but these are questions that haunt me.

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Weaver, I am confused about why you proclaim belief in Christ when you have so many doubts. Why would you believe anything if you have so many expressed doubts? That is my only point.

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And free will does explain about love Mel, but it doesn't explain why there aren't angels or something protecting little kids from evil.

Should "angels" come prevent ALL evil, then? Should angels come down and stop you when you drink too much? Should they stop you when you sleep with your boyfriend? It still comes back to the same point, weaver, God is not some sick cosmic puppeteer who manages a stage full of actors. Don't you like having free will?

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But for all those years before alcoholism got the best of him, he NEVER once said only Christians were going to heaven.

But I am sure he knew that to be the truth. Regardless of what he said, it is the truth. First off, if one is not a Christian, they don't believe in heaven. Secondly, God will not drag anyone into heaven against their will. If he forced someone into heaven against their will, then heaven would be hell for them. Folks have the free will to REJECT God and God will not interfere with that choice.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Weaver, I am confused about why you proclaim belief in Christ when you have so many doubts. Why would you believe anything if you have so many expressed doubts? That is my only point.


Yep! Sucks to be me right now. LOL Probably why I keep reading these types of threads.

Believing in God does not go hand in hand with me believing in Christ. Like I said I never knew only Christians were going to heaven.

And I am having major doubts with both right now hence the constant raising of doubt.

This thread is an important tool for people to talk things out, and to get others viewpoints. It's all good in my opinion because total faith is not something that is happening for me right now. And it probably is good to question it, how else would you know that that faith is real?

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weaver, Jesus *IS* GOD, so it does go hand in hand. Jesus and God are one and the same.

As far as only Christians going to heaven, do you imagine that God would drag people kicking and screaming into heaven against their will? Wouldn't that be cruel? Where did you get such a notion? People have the free will to accept or reject God, they are not going to be forced into heaven at the point of a gun. And I don't understand how you imagine that someone who doesn't even believe in heaven would care about it?

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And it probably is good to question it, how else would you know that that faith is real?

Why would you have faith in anything unless you knew the object of your faith was REAL? That is what I don't get, weaver. Faith is belief in things unseen, not things unknown. You are supposed to ask those questions BEFORE you have faith, not after. I have "faith" that Cuba exists, even though I have never seen it, but I base my faith on evidence. But, I didn't form that faith until I had seen that evidence. To do otherwise would be backwards.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Why would you have faith in anything unless you knew the object of your faith was REAL? That is what I don't get, weaver. Faith is belief in things unseen, not things unknown. You are supposed to ask those questions BEFORE you have faith, not after. I have "faith" that Cuba exists, even though I have never seen it, but I base my faith on evidence. But, I didn't form that faith until I had seen that evidence. To do otherwise would be backwards.


You grow up with faith in God, because that is what your parents teach you as a child (in my case). You grow up going to church and learning about Jesus, a man that embodies all that is holy.

You become an adult and start to question it because of the lack of evidence among other things such as bad things happening to kids (where was their free will btw to not be kidnapped/tortured/abused, whatever). And as you question it, looking for answers in other religions such as Buddhism, Wicca, etc there is something inside of you, speaking to you and it is that voice that you had always known as God. He who comforts and brings hope.

But still these questions and doubts remain. Not quite there but not quite not there either, as a believer in God that is.

Does that answer your question on how you could have faith, then question it after the fact?

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weaver, so you really don't have faith at all, [or maybe a wobbly blind faith] you are just repeating what your parents told you and are just now examining those beliefs. I can understand that. And I think its good that you are researching the subject. I do hope that you are doing some serious research outside of an internet forum. Some good books I could recommend would be "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" Volumes I and II by Josh McDowell. He is a former athiest and he is one of many who helped me reach an informed conclusion about Christianity.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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weaver, Jesus *IS* GOD, so it does go hand in hand. Jesus and God are one and the same.


Mel,

That's what you and FH as Christians believe. Not all who believe in God are Christians. And not all who believe in God believe Him to be what Christians believe Him to be.

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weaver, that is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of FACT. Jesus is God whether one believes it or not. It is either true or false based on reality, not man's "beliefs." Now, I am aware that there other religions that have other "gods" they worship and they have the free will to reject God.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Can I have some of what ever you have Mel, which makes you so sure. I would love to have that find of faith, and I am being very sincere here.

I sometimes wish I was an athiest, because then I wouldn't have to think about it anymore.

I have a feeling God isn't going to let me go though, hence this nagging feeling that I am some how missing something which is just so clear to others like yourself.

How come hardly anyone else is venturing on this thread. Must be more confused souls out there besides me.

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weaver, you are on the right track. What you are missing is the necessary evidence to come to an informed conclusion. Research, research, research. Don't take anyone's word for it. Don't take my word, FH's, WATs; verify everything and do your own research. If you are not sure of something, that is always the answer. If you don't abide by that standard then you will fall for anything.

Did you want someone else to venture on this thread? Why? You are holding your own just fine.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Weaver - I'm a confused soul. You are not alone. I can't go back and read this thread. I'm tired and won't be receptive to it. My struggle comes from the belief that only Christians will be 'saved'. As an example, in Asia we lost at least 250,000 people in the Tsunami - 2/3 were kids. They were predominantly Muslim in Indonesia and Buddist in Thailand. If they have not accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour, they should not have made it into heaven. Most likely, a huge amount of them never had the opportunity to learn of him.

If I'm way off mark on the subject matter of this thread, forgive me for butting in. This just sprung to mind. TT

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As an example, in Asia we lost at least 250,000 people in the Tsunami - 2/3 were kids. They were predominantly Muslim in Indonesia and Buddist in Thailand. If they have not accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour, they should not have made it into heaven. Most likely, a huge amount of them never had the opportunity to learn of him.

TT, first off I don't believe that a "large amount" of them never heard of Christ, we have no reason to believe any such thing. Secondly, it is believed that children, before the age of determination, do go to heaven. The Bible is not clear on what that age is.

Any of the tsunami victims who had rejected Jesus Christ would not be dragged into heaven against their will. And the accusation that a non-believer should be dragged into a place in which they don't even believe exists is an odd notion to me. I don't get that logic. I don't believe in the seven heavens of Mormonism [or whatever it is] but I don't go around whining that I can't go there. Why would I? It makes no sense to complain that you can't go somewhere that you don't even believe exists, does it?

Call me puzzled.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


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Melody - All I can say is I have travelled extensively in Asia. There's so much poverty once you get away from the big cities and resorts. They are good people just existing; mums struggling to work in fields to feed their families; dads out in their fishing boats trying to catch a meal. They mostly will follow whichever God their parents hand down to them. I can't help but believe it's the same guy I pray to. I don't think God is so exclusive. TT

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TT, its not a matter of being "exclusive," it's a matter of personal choice. We are all granted the free will to accept or reject him. God doesn't exclude anyone, we exclude ourselves. It would be an act of cruelty to drag someone into heaven against thier will, and God is not a cruel God, he is a just God. He believes in free will.

Heaven is to be in the eternal presence of Jesus Christ, and many reject him. If he dragged people into heaven against their will, then heaven would be hell, wouldn't it?

Even so, a non-Christian does not even believe in the concept of heaven so they couldn't credibly complain about not going to a place they don't even believe exists. That would be nutty.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Sorry, the time difference is dragging me to bed. I'm not denying the presence of heaven. Most religions have a 'heaven' of sorts. Do you think there are different heavens and you go to the one you believe in? I mean, let's face it, those suicide bombers are pretty sure they're going to a better place. I am checking out for tonight but I am so interested in this. I want God to be universal but you don't always get what you want. I envy that you feel so sure about Jesus in your life. TT

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Sorry, the time difference is dragging me to bed. I'm not denying the presence of heaven. Most religions have a 'heaven' of sorts. Do you think there are different heavens and you go to the one you believe in? I mean, let's face it, those suicide bombers are pretty sure they're going to a better place. I am checking out for tonight but I am so interested in this. I want God to be universal but you don't always get what you want. I envy that you feel so sure about Jesus in your life. TT

No, I don't believe there are different heavens, I would have no reason to believe such a thing. But, it doesn't matter what I, or anyone else, "believes," what matters is what is true. I can believe that Barney the purple dinosaur is god, but that doesn't make it true.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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weaver, you are on the right track. What you are missing is the necessary evidence to come to an informed conclusion. Research, research, research. Don't take anyone's word for it. Don't take my word, FH's, WATs; verify everything and do your own research. If you are not sure of something, that is always the answer. If you don't abide by that standard then you will fall for anything.

Did you want someone else to venture on this thread? Why? You are holding your own just fine.


Mel for some reason this post of yours about brought me to tears. I probably will read those two Josh McDowell books you speak of. Right now the best that I have read is "A Course in Miracles", and it keeps me hanging on even if just by a thread.

Thanks for caring Mel.

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