At the base of the hill on a raised platform of sorts, three of the Roman guard slid their fingers into the grips of three square stones, lifting them to reveal cross-holes already carven into the rock. Setting these aside, they helped position the three crosses, one by each hole.

Hand-lettered signs in Pilate’s own hand were fastened above each cross, the accusation written boldly in three languages. The two brothers fought wildly as the soldiers held down their arms and legs, binding them with new rope. Their screams rent the air as they were nailed in place.

Arnon was the loudest, shouting, “I shouldn’t be here! General Marcus, tell them we had a deal. It wasn’t supposed to happen this way! I don’t deserve to be here.” His voice trailed off in a sob. “You cretin,” he turned on his brother. “It’s all your fault I’m in this mess. If you weren’t such a sheep-brained coward I wouldn’t be here at all, dying with a sissy and a lunatic for company.”

“You’re the cretin,” Elan snapped. “You brought that traitor into our camp in the first place, but could you warn your own brother? Nooooo!” It was just a continuation of the argument that had been ongoing for the duration of their incarceration.

But Jesus, still silent, lay down and stretched out his arms willingly in submission. He didn’t cry out when spikes pierced his hands, though sweat poured down his face. The soldier bent his legs, aligning his feet with the front of the cross. Placing the spike on the outside of his heel, the soldier hammered it ruthlessly into place, pinning him in an awkward contortion. Though excruciating, this part of the procedure gave the prisoners a footing to push up on, allowing them to breathe. After all, it would never do to have them die too quickly.

Alona held Malchus' hand, and he squeezed convulsively as the soldiers lifted the cross and dropped it abruptly into the deep hole, viciously jarring the condemned man’s feet and hands. He was close enough to hear Jesus moan, “Father, forgive them. They don’t know what they’re doing.” General Marcus looked up at the man in astonishment. Expecting Barabbas to fill the middle spot, nothing had prepared the general for the man who replaced him: a man who, though dying naked in utter humiliation could still ask forgiveness for those who were killing him. The Roman tried to shake of the feelings of worry and fear, but he couldn’t help but think that the inscription above the dying man might be true. Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews.

- from Malchus: TBJ by Neak

You will have to excuse the shameless horn-blowing here. This is the best I could ever sum up what forgiveness means to me. I am far from the mark, I'm afraid, but this is what I aim for.

PEP:

Thanks for noticing this.

As you well know, RECOVERY is not for SISSIES...

In our discussions about her and the A, my H vascillates between wanting to take primary responsibility for the A, portraying her as the lost, innocent soul and portraying the OW as EVIL. He clearly has his own personal struggle with figuring out how this tragedy happened and so do I.

I thought it was interesting that JPH captured the "OW as innocent victim" portrayal almost in my H's words.

I personally tend to continue to think of her as being EVIL.

It's probably a complicated mixture of both.

He is struggling with my expressions of anger and bitterness about her. He clearly wishes I would shut up about it when I spout off.

You know me. I'm in the process of learning the happy medium. I'm duking it out. I used to either have the urge to kill her or have nothing to say. Now he has to hear my mouth.

"TOO BAD, TOO SAD" for him....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mimi, is this still a struggle?

Having been both BS and OW my perspective is a little different.

But then again, I only know me. I do not know the OW your husband was involved with.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

When we marry, we make a commitment to each other for life.

Most people make this commitment beyond just the legal bindings of a law....they do so under some religious setting...

This commitment in a religious ceremony is usually not a private matter...but more likely a community event...

The invitations are sent out inviting the community to come and witness this comitment as well as acknowldege the religious meaning and value....
which in most cases is first and formost fidelity....
that is exactly what most marriages state publically

There is NO doubt that a WS disregards the vows made....but so does the Other Person....

marriages do not only hold sacredness and the call for respect between the husband and wife.....but also call for the support of the community....
The other person disregards the whole meaning of marriage with their actions....and their actions stand to put many innocent people at risk for many trajedies....

Even religions that allow polygamy do so under a strict religious base....that have nothing to do with falseness and betrayal.

and OP that ignore that aspect inspite of what the WS says...
stands to be judged as an innerloper.

the definition of marriage is constant
even the defintion of polygamous marriages is constant with a expected route of enacting..
none done in secrecy
none done in betrayal....
with full disclosure and consent....

Saying that the OP is wrong is what they did does not mean that the BS hold such animosity that it entitles them to act out against the OP....
or even that their feelings of distate for what the OP did is bad or evil...
it is how they feel plain and simple....

No one here encourages BS to hold on to hate or anger so that it impedes them in their own lives....
No one here encourages futile energy expendature on the actions of the OP...nothing anyone can do about that...
OP are what they are....

and blame is not a bad thing or unhealthy thing...it just is...

And while everyone wants to quote scripture about judging and not judging....if you are following under the premise of scripture...

then you can not just throw other biblical teachings..

as in the big ten
thou shall not commit adultery...

that commandment is equal to the Wayward one and the Other person....

if you live under the law of the ten commandments...then it addresses the issue to all...not just those that are married....

Vows are usually not something just between two people but are usually very much a public statement spoken freely with great expectation for NO ONE to put asunder....

Why put so much effort into staying with someone who betrayed you?

each person holds the right to make that decision for themselves.......

each person on this planet has the ability to change if they choose to do so....

ARK

To answer the original question of why so much anger?

I think everyones sitch is a little different, granted the WS is responsible but in my case the OM is married. My WWXW always wore her ring so he knew from the start he was wooing a married woman.

BUT, I really didn't care about the MOM until he injected himself into my and my childrens lives.

I blame that on my WWXW for the most part by allowing it but this guy actually showed up at my youngest son's talent show yesterday wearing a shirt that had an arrow pointing to his head in bold letters that said "The Man" and an arrow pointed at his crotch that said "The Legend". THis was at a 2nd-4th grade talent show. That was enough on it's own to anger me beyond belief but, I didn't know they were their at first (to busy watching and WWXW never shows up for this stuff) but I happened to notice them and the MOM looks at me and smirks and points!

Now, he is a little guy (well little to me, 5'9" and sickly) and I am a very large man(6' 235 and body builder). Let's just say that up until that point, I really couldn't have cared less, the 2 of them deserve each other. I found myself in a position I find extremely uncomfortable i.e...wanting to rip his head off and $h*t down his neck. I am normally in very good control of my emotions but if my Daughter had not chosen that exact moment to tug on my arm to ask about the next song I would have killed him, they were 15 feet away. I don't mean in theory, I mean really friggin' killing this guy, the kind of anger that wells up maybe once in a person's lifetime.

So that leads to the next part of my belief, there are angels because one of them used to my daughter to bring me back from the precipice I was almost falling over.

So anyway, it was one thing to woo my wife, it was one thing to screw my wife, whatever because I don't care about that anymore but when you involve my kids and try to disrespect me? Say things to my kids to make me look bad?

Well, theres the answer about anger toward the OP. I had none until MOM decided to involve me and my kids.

Let me add real quick that this dirtbag wouldn't feel it was OK to even attempt this crap if WWXW hadn't made it OK for him to do so. So I know she is still at fault as well. Common sense would tell you that if you looked at me, and he looked in the mirror that this was not a healthy decsion for him....strange some peoples death wish.

RebornMan

Earlier this year I had an epiphany on this very issue...as my xwh married one of his mistresses last year a mere 3 days after our D was final.

COMPLETELY blaming the OP is MISPLACED AGGRESSION TOWARDS THE WS.

Why?

If we were to direct our feelings, our betrayals towards our marriage partner, it would be a huge drop in our lbank...and we'd also view them differently...WE SO WANT TO BELIEVE THAT ANOTHER PERSON...A TRULY EVIL PERSON...PLANNED AND SCHEMED AND THAT OUR INNOCENT SPOUSE WAS LITERALLY PINNED DOWN OR A GUN HELD TO THEIR HEAD MAKING THEM COMMITT THIS ACT CALLED ADULTERY.

In reality, is not that way.

What do I think of my xh's new wifeypoo? She is a complete idiot...iq of a f'ing stump. Former "model" (and I use that in the loose term) and she's not exactly any paragon of morality in any way at all...shacked up with him and in full sight of my little boy...as for ow1, she was and still is to this day also as his new wifeypoo is, a shameless golddigger who has dated MORE THAN ONE married man..she's a she-predator...I think they call them "cougars" these days?

AND AS VILE AS THEY MAY BE...AS DEVOID OF MORALITY IN MY PERCEPTIONS, THEY DID NOT HOLD A GUN TO MY XH'S HEAD AND FORCE HIM TO PULL HIS FLY DOWN. NO SIR.

Bottom line is both are accountable and should take responsibility for breaking down a family. Simple as that.

When I "got it", my burden instantly lifted. I don't hate his wifeypoo..I am glad I am NOT her...he's treating her worse than he treated me...I got at least a few good years outta it...she's his 3rd wife and nobody's thiking this will last too long.

It is easier to villify another party..somebody detached from you. That way, in your mind, it is easier for you to FORGIVE YOUR WS AND WORK ON SAY A PLAN A OR A PLAN B AND WANT TO WORK HARD IN RECOVERING YOUR MARRIAGE...It's like a form of mental compensation because THE REALITY IS TOO DAMN HARD TO ACCEPT...FOR IF WE DID, THE CONSEQUENCES MIGHT NOT END UP IN RECOVERY.

Your partner made vows to you...you have had a family maybe..You have a past together. This person swore to love and cherish you till the end...and this op suddenly pops up and white becomes black, and then black becomes white and nothing is as it was before.

So who do you blame?

With time, and with my own recovery...my divorce recovery, I discovered this. And yes, my feelings morphed even more towards my xh. I don't really feel anything for him at all now. He's like somebody I used to know. But somebody I would not want to be around as of now. Why? I find it completely unhealthy to want to even consider being around somebody who cannot grasp the notion of accountability.

In my work, I am held accountable each day.

As a mom, I am held accountable as the parent of my son...in his rearing, etc.

So why let off a WS?

I think alot of BS here would fare MUCH better if they grasp this concept now. Had I gotten it say two years ago, and detached more, I think I could have done a flawless A and B. But I still think my xh is too out there for MB or any help. But I believe the sooner we decide we NO LONGER WANT TO LIVE IN A COMFORT ZONE HATING SOMEBODY FOREIGN TO US just so we can still harbor warm fuzzy feelings for the real person who betrayed us, if we can "get it", then we are braver and stronger to apply such principles as MB and do them right...plus, being stronger and more independent and less a doormat is always A THOUSAND TIMES MORE ATTRACTIVE TO THE WAYWARDS.

Now don't get me wrong either...

I will NEVER be friends with either wifeypoo or no. 1. I will not. (no 1 being his first ow). That is also part of my accountability...I have made the conscious decision to NOT enable and to NOT validate their affair marriage. If I feel that something is wrong, and I do not do something about it, then I am not standing up for my belief system...I am not ugly to her...I just do not recognize her in my life. I do all parenting issues positively and thru my xh. They have their life, I have mine. But my xh and I do have to work together as co parents for my son. So no lunches, no shopping trips, no sending cute email forwards to either of these ow...no cosmos or cappucino's to discover how "alike we really are". Not this girl.

But what I can say, is thru the pain of discovering this truth, I have released some of my pain and burden that I have been carrying on my back for 3 years. Wish I could have done this sooner.

So here's what I found summed up:
1)my xh is primarily to blame, but the op is also guilty...but they were NOT married to me..and he's already cheating on her now!
2)By my not facing up to this, I was unable to let go of some feelings, and face the fact earlier that my xh was an addicted and guy who was totally outta control. It was easier to blame his actions on some "ow who was poisoning his soul"...he was legally sane mostly when he did these things.
3)When you accept this, you are able to focus on facts, and able to disconnect from the wierd fog that many BS are in during discovery and the ensuing months or years that an affair goes on. You can more clearly place blame and assess the situation at hand.

So in the end, darth did teach me something...and because of this, I am gonna be an even more kick [email]a@s[/email] person or wife in the future to somebody worthy of me...yea, us BS who work on ourselves if we find ourselves in the single pool, have all the right stuff for the future. We have little regrets or as in my case, NONE AT ALL and can move forward with little negativity in our hearts. Let the WS and OP deal with the fallout. as for me, I am all about what's on the plate for tomorrow.

Love and hugs always.

not_so_you_neak,

The above passage has reminded me again of what true forgiveness really are and should look like...through Jesus's example... [color:"blue"] THANKS FOR SHARING.[/color]

Blessings,
Suzet

....so if I met the OW without knowing she was or was not an OW, would I like her?

Probably not. See her character was already flawed. It had gotten to the point that even casual acquaintances had a dislike for her kind. What kind was that? The OP in the making kind. Da' kine dat tought she was mo betta than everyone else. (just added a bit of pidgin - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

In time the qualities that make a WS and OP which lead them to an A spill out past the BS and family and some are dumb enough to think others will bow to their A ways. That need to manipulate is strong. They just have to reach out and touch the forbidden fruit (not the real one) and take what is not their own.

Should one be angry at the OP? Well if the OP cut you off on the road, broke into your home, stole your identity, beat you to a pulp, kidnaped a family member(s), robbed you at gun point and was NOT sorry for any of it, would you be angry? Would it be justified?

IMHO, yes. In many cases the OP has participated or even orchestrated that and more.

I know this much, if I ever saw the OW in need, I'd think twice before helping her. Does that sound cruel?

L.

ARK:

I really appreciate your post.

My feelings about the FOW are MY FEELINGS.

I also value what you are saying about the sacredness of marriage and how it is to be supported by a community.

The FOW in my case was open in her disregard and dislike of MARRIAGE. She is young and already has been married and divorced twice. This partly fueled the A. She even said to me in my only face to face communication with her: "HE IS YOUR HUSBAND"!. She was voicing her vehement disregard of this and voicing her perception of herself as being on a higher level than a wife.... YUK! She CLAIMED that she never wanted to MARRY him, wanting to remain HIS WOMAN!

I so agree with ORCHID'S view of the OW. The FOW, in my case, was like hers... with character flaws, very destructive and nutty.....scary.... I see her as EVIL! I'm sure she wishes me dead. The way I feel about her is the way I feel about her...

SUSAN, YOU ASKED:



I think you asked this in reference to my H's feelings about the A.

As CSUE has pointed out to me, our MARRIAGE is solid right now.Our MARRIAGE is wonderful and special in so many ways... Both my H and I are STRUGGLING now more with personal recovery. When I say "struggle", I mean an "internal" struggle. I see the pain and sorrow in my H's eyes,voice and behavior in instances when he has to come face to face with what he has done. I'm making reference to triggering incidents. I see that as a good thing-"No Pain No Gain". Itseems like a miracle to me how much my H has changed in terms of his R with our sons. Both of our sons are saying at ages 18 and 22: "I talk more to D now than I ever have in my whole life". ARK is right that people can change....

About responsibility for the A, I hold both my FWH and the FOW accountable. I don't fully blame her at all. However, my feelings about her are REAL and UNDENIABLE.

Steve Harley called our OW a troller. She cast out her line and caught the big fish, H. After d-day H took all the blame. He couldn't even hear a bad word about his little princess. Then, little by little, he began to recall and relate things she had been doing in the workplace. Some very subtle, but very manipulative. She was having trouble in her M and was wanting to leave her M. She would talk to H about her fear of not having sex. H didn't like talking about this and the OW of course apologized. Seductively eating a popsicle like she was giving it a blowjob. She could have been just sucking that popsicle, but? At lunch sitting in her chair with both legs on the edge and her legs spread apart. She had a pantssuit on, so was that wrong? Yet H noticed the spread apart legs. Relating to H conversations of her friends talking about sex. Again, H says he was uncomfortable, but never was faced with this before so didn't know how to handle it. Asking H to go to the park with her so she could give him a letter she wrote him, thus made the 1st move to reveal feelings.

Yes, H finally walked through the A door. I hold him 100% responsible for that. However, this is what hurts and why I still hate the OW. I asked my IC if she thought OW was a predator because I didn't want to just think that so I'd feel better. She said, "A predator goes after what is vulnerable. Your H was vulnerable, so yes, I think she was a predator." H's IC called her the master of seduction. She kept chipping away at him at an extremely vulnerable time in our lives. She had the goal of having what was mine. There is another commandment, "Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife." That was the 1st sin OW committed. H was not the kind of man searching to have an A. If there wasn't this W coveting all sorts of things, we wouldn't be trying to recover now.

I have no idea what her life is like now. I know she gave up the potential for a great career because she was so greedy for more. But because of her greed I am now faced with this excruciating pain. My boys now have infidelity as part of their legacy. H and I still haven't turned the corner where we can say we are recovered. She was playing a little game, but this game had an enormous effect on our lives. That is why I hate the OW, because she just didn't care. CV

CV:
Sounds a lot like my situation! Steve described the OW in my sitch similarly. My H sounds a lot like yours. Intrigued by her lewdness,vulnerable to the dark side, the other side of the tracks, ready to accept blame... YUK!! Maybe this pattern accounts for our feelings of hatred....



AMEN!!!

Whoa..whoa..whoa! I in no way consider the xow an innocent victim. Quite the contrary! Let me try to explain it this way. Say a teenager gets drives while drunk and kills a mother and her children. Having the mindset of a teenager, he thinks he's invincible. He has no conception of the damage he's done. While this is a lame example, it explains in a small way how I feel about xow. She had no idea how much damage she's done to so many. Knowing this how can I hold bitterness toward her.

Matthew 6:14 If you forgive men their trespasses your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

While forgiving others is not our "ticket" to heaven only a trusting relationship with Jesus Christ makes that possible, we as Christians have Jesus as our example. Jesus died for my sins-all of our sins-before I asked for forgiveness.

Remember in Matthew 18, the story of the man who was forgiven a debt that so massive it could not ever be repaid. He later refused to forgive a small debt that was owed to him. When news of his actions were learned, he was then required to repay the massive debt.How can I withhold forgivess for this offense when the Lord has forgiven me the massive amount of my sins? Refusing to forgive xow will not hurt her only me.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil.

About evil...It's difficult to determine whether something is an evil act or the actions of an evil person. That's a matter of discernment. We're to be in the world but not of the world so it's to our advantage to avoid evil as much as possible keeping in mind that we're to be salt and light.

Remember David was known as a man after God's own heart yet he was caught up in the act of adultery so much so that he arranged the murder of her husband to hide his sin. Remember when Jonathan came to him to confront him about his sin. David's eyes were opened and he was devastated. (Beth Moore has written a wonderful book about this, "A Man After God's Own Heart") Psalms is rich with the remorse and pain that David suffered. (Psalms 51 comes to mind) God never left David.

Accusing and laying blame was a place I lived in until I realized it was useless. Like I said, it took me along time to get to this place with xow. Mimi, I remember when I was where you are. It's a growing and learning process.
You need to be patient with yourself and your husband. For so long I couldn't bear to even hear the sound of her name because it took be back to that place of searing pain-and she has a very common name. I recently saw xow and felt nothing but pity for her. She hung her head and took off in the other direction.

Mimi look at it this way. Your house is on fire and xow started it. Instead of focusing on her behavior, get help in putting out the fire. Isn't it the responsibility of the authorities to punish her for her actions, not you? Focus on rebuilding your home, repairing the damage. The longer you focus on her actions, the more damage will be done to your home. Don't allow her to do more damage. She has no conception that she's messed with a relationship that God has embraced and the consequences. There are two types of cheaters out there-those who fall into the trap of a evil woman (read Proverbs which is rich in warnings for men of the foreign woman) and the serial cheater who I believe is evil. While I don't know your whole story, I get the impression that your husband is a man who got caught up in a bad situation. Knowing that you both are Christians, allow God to work in your lives and use that work to give glory to Him.

JPH:

Thanks for your post.

You said:



I mentioned this viewpoint before. This is exactly what Mr. Mimi says. He wants to focus on us and wants to redirect me from her as you say. Now I understand that it is not so much about excusing her. When he says, "this is about US", he is saying that maintaining our marital strength as a "TEAM" is key to protecting us from any and all evil intrusions....

I don't really focus on her as much as it may seem. However, when a door such as this is opened, I will take the opportunity to vent. It's funny that you mentioned the name thing. Neither of us can say her name. Like when there's another person with her name, we fail to say it.

God surely is continuing to work miracles in our lives and WE give HIM THE GLORY.

You captured the STRUGGLE that I see my H experiencing-the remorse and pain of David.

You said:


Almost exactly the words of Steve Harley!!!

Thanks for your helpful enlightenment in a biblical sense. Thanks for helping me with this....

On righteous anger...


On forgiveness...


Forgiveness has nothing to do with whether they repent or not. It has to do with you. It is one of the hardest things I had to learn in thinking about the Troll (OM). Do I have righteous anger for him? Sure. I think he is a worthless piece of s*&t and has no honor in him. The is my judgment of him based on his fruit...based on what he has done with his life.

But, his trespasses against me and my family...I have no right to hold against him. Do you know something? After D-Day, I spent the next three years praying EVERYDAY that God would not find the Troll, would not allow him to be saved. EVERYDAY!

God says...okay, I'll honor your request, as he does deserve Hell. And he does deserve punishment. But then He goes on to say that because I want the Troll to be held to this standard, then He will hold me to this standard. Because I will nto forgive the Troll's sins, then He will not forgive mine.

Mind blowing stuff. So, I have forgiven him. Oh sure, I can still see he is a worthless, dishonorable slithering piece of crap and brings very little good into this world. I can judge that!! But I no longer hold his sins against me, against him. I have left that to God. Look, I figure if God says that He will repay...He should be able to do a lot better job giving the Troll what he deserves than I can. My satisfaction is that I know that my God is a just God, and He will not let these transgressions against me...against His Son...go unpunished. That is as long as I dont try to do it myself. So, I let God deal with Him.

And because I have forgiven, then the Troll no longer occupies my mind, nor my day. I walk in the comfort that I am forgiven...and that unless the Troll finds that he needs Jesus as His Lord and Savior, that he will pay for eternity. Which sorry to say, right now in my life, brings a smile to my face!

Never ask for what you deserve!! We all deserve Hell! Every last one of us. Grace is getting what you dont deserve, and didnt even ask for.

Judgment? We are to judge...just not hypocritically. Anger? No problem, when it is righteous anger.

Not forgiving someone, even if they havent repented? Well, that is wrong and God says that He will hold you to the same standard. Thus...you are not forgiven.

Personally, I forgive the Troll, not for him...but I REFUSE to let this worthless life form come between me and Jesus. I refuse to let the Troll keep me from being forgiven. I refuse to let the Troll have the satisfaction of me missing out on the many blessings of God.

Forgiveness is not for the other person. Forgiveness is for ourselves, so we may not hinder our relationship with Jesus.

In His arms.

I re-read the original post and had some questions....

1. "amazed" ... really? You find this amazing ? I wonder if you have been around infidelity boards very long if you find this feeling "amazing" or out of the ordinary. It is very ordinary. Maybe not universal, but certainly common and ordinary. Here's my question --> Do you think human responses to injury are often predictable, as in showing some common behaviors?

2. "I don't hate or dislike OM" I interpret this to mean you are neutral about him. As if he were a total stranger about whom you know nothing. Correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation. Here's my question --> Is this to say you have given his character no thought?

3. "have no respect or feelings of any kind toward him" ... I am a bit confused. No respect to me indicates a type of feeling, as in disrespect. But yet you say you have no feelings of any kind. Here's the question --> Do you feel disrespect toward OM?

4. "shouldn't our feelings be towards the WS" ... Here is where it gets wildly interesting for me. The feelings you mentioned in your post are:
A. "hostility"
B. "hate"
C. "dislike"
Here's the question --> Are you suggesting that it is more appropriate for the BS to feel hostility, hatred, and/or dislike toward their WS than toward the OP?

5. "does blaming them help you" ... I thought you were advocating neutral feelings toward OP, but it now appears that you are actually discussing where to place "blame" for the affair. Here's the question --> Is it your belief that the affair is blameless? ..or.. Are you saying that the blame is entirely owned by one's spouse who cheated, and not shared by 2 cheating persons?

Thanks for taking the time hurtnheart. I appreciate it.

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

to add to that - God is a just God. He will judge his people when it's time.

The troll will be judged, and whether he found God during that time, or not, he will be saved or not. But either way - troll will be judged by God.

And as part of being a Christian, we need to trust God. We need to trust God that he will judge whom he needs to judge, and that we are not to do that judging or punishing for him. If we take matters into our own hands, then we are not trusting him.

God may be a forgiving, compassionate, loving God, but he is also a just God. If Troll never finds God, and submits to God, then God will punish, God will judge.

I take faith in God <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well said Mortarman.

Mimi-your husband sounds as if he is a wise man. You'll make it and have a relationship even better than before. It's a process that is painful. I'm sorry you have to endure that pain because I as way too many here know as well. You'll get to the point where the thought of her will not bring up that pain. Every lesson that I've learned the most from in my life came from pain. When we get on the back end of that pain we can see the blessing. Just rest in the faith that the blessing will one day shine upon you both.

JPH:

Thanks again for your insight.

Mr. Mimi is indeed wise, now free from his "FOGGY" thinking. I rely on his wisdom daily.

Lots of great posts here! I would add that the Biblical standard for forgiveness is contingent upon repentence. That is God's standard for us and that is the same standard he expects from us.

I think alot of the misunderstanding comes from WHAT forgiveness is from a Biblical standpoint. The purpose of forgiveness is not to make us "feel" good and holy moly,[which is the only result when the receiver neither wants nor cares for forgiveness] but to reconcile or with our brother, to restore our relationship.

Forgiveness is how we reconcile with God and we cannot do that unless we have repented of our sin, otherwise the sin stands between ourselves and God. So, to gain forgiveness from God, we must first repent so the sin is removed. [ie: covered in the blood of Christ]

Let's take that a step farther. Does God "forgive" those who don't want or care about his forgiveness? Does he force his forgiveness on folks who reject him? No, he doesn't. He gives us a choice to accept or reject him. There would be no point since that person does not WANT reconciliation with God. And the purpose of forgiveness is, after all, reconciliation.

Forgiveness is, by definition a two-way street leading to restoration of fellowship, however that two-way street requires someone who is willing to forgive and someone who is wanting to forgive. If you are to forgive me, I must be repentent or there can be no restoration of fellowship. Otherwise, it is a useless gesture that only makes the giver "feel" good.

I think the bottom line is that we should never imagine that our standard of forgiveness is higher than God's standard. He offers us forgiveness and the restoration of fellowship but that is not subjectively realized until we WANT it and until we repent.

That being said, we should always be willing to forgive. It would be a great sin to withhold forgiveness from someone who seeks it. But, until they seek it, there would be no purpose except to make ourselves feel good. And one does not have to go through an empty gesture of forgiveness to release bitterness, that can be done without such a gesture. Hope that all makes sense.

Mortarman,
You are dead a$$ on! I just couldn't express it as eloquently as you did.
Now taking that one step further, and because I now have a helmet and body armour on for the 2x4's I'm sure to get hit with, do we as Christians, then, have any obligation to reach out to OP to try to make them see the Light of Christ, and where their salvation lies?
Oh boy, why did I ask that?
I'm going to go take cover now.
Jerrry