[color:"green"]I'm not sure what kind of reaction I will receive for asking this question......but here goes.

I am about 3 weeks past our final divorce. We separated last August, and I filed in October. Neither of us hurried on the D because we were wanting to make sure it was what we really should do.

FF to last weekend. I met a very attractive man who is interested in me. I have been very up front with him that I am NOT ready to date. Although I am at the end of my grieving, I am not finished yet. In addition, emotionally, I am very defensive and untrusting. Not what I would deem abnormal for so soon after the end of a marriage.

OTOH, I find myself very attracted to this man. And it has been a long time since I've even felt the touch of a hand around my shoulder, or a gentle kiss. I miss that type of affection.

Now this gentleman is what I would call 'sweet.' He is my age, but much less emotionally experienced. There are many 'warning flags' that go up if I look at him as a true possible mate - he goes out drinking too much, he's never been in love, he doesn't understand why the divorce hurts so much, etc. None of this is malintended, and he's not insensitive about it....but he doesn't sympathize, empathize, or understand. Yet he is considerate, polite, and we enjoy each other's company.

My question is this. We have been 'hanging out' every once in a while - going to dinner or watching a movie. We are also physically attracted to each other. But I have no intentions on truly 'dating' this man because I could not fathom him being a 'healthy' choice for me.

So would it be wrong for me to 'see' him in a friendly and sometimes physical way as long as we are both on the same page and up front about it?

As for responses, I'm expecting the worst, and hoping for the best.......in the way of flaming, that is.

Thanks for your honesty.

LIT [/color]

Hey, LIT - long time no hear! Glad to hear from you again.

I think you know the answer to this. I sense it is already known in your heart and you are seeking confirmation. I'm not sure what your answer is - I just think you have one already inside.

If it were me, I'd try to ask myself some tough questions, like:

* what is the point of this?
* do we both agree on the point of it?
* is this a "rebound" relationship, and if so, can I accept it for what it is?
* what if one person gets more serious than the other?
* what if I am the one who gets more serious, even though I don't think this is the right person?

Then go with my gut, and know that there is a risk to whichever route I'd go.

Cheers!

Not to be crude but are you talking about a f... buddy?

I can't imagine this can work out for anyone who has a desire for a committed (even if it isn't right now) relationship.

You may get a momentary feeling of being "close" to someone but when you roll over & realize you don't really like the person your with in a way that could make a lasting relationship, the whole encounter would feel sad & dirty.

For women especially I think lots of the satisfaction from intimacy is our emotional connection to the person we are with.

If this man would like more with you & you would only be using him to fill an emotional & physical void it wouldn't be fair to him.

[color:"blue"]Hey Deja,

Yes, I took a little reprieve from the boards.....guess I just needed a break. Good to see you, too. I see you are moving along with your D - good luck!

You know me too well! I suppose I have made a decision. And for the most part, I am secure with it. I suppose I was just looking to see if anyone had thoughts that I might have overlooked.

The thought of one of us making more of an emotional connection is probably the only part I would be weary of. Although, quite honestly, I'm not certain he could be emotionally deep enough for me to really attach to. But that is really at the crux of my decision. If either one of us got too emotionally involved, I would need to break it off.

Anyhow, thanks for your perspective and your post! It's good to see you and to be back on the boards! [/color]

[color:"blue"]
Nams,

Well, I wouldn't quite put it as crudely as that...but what I would be talking about is a balance between a friend, and some physical contact. We do enjoy each other's company and different perspectives. And we enjoy e-mailing, grabbing a bite to eat, and just chatting in person.

But at the same time, there is a very strong physical attraction as well. We do like each other - but just realize that we are in different places with regards to emotional experience.


I think for most women I would agree. And even with me, to an extent, I think the emotional intimacy enhances the physical connection and makes it beautiful.

However, should I refrain from kissing and/or touch until I think I have found the 'perfect' mate?

I agree. And the reverse situation would not be fair to me either. What I wonder, though, is if 2 people really can be involved even though they know they will not be married. I suppose what I refer to as a 'buddy' would be what other people refer to as dating.

People often 'date' while denying the intention of getting married. But for me, dating means you are getting involved with someone because you think they could be potential mate.

Would either of us be filling a 'void'? I suppose if you want to look at it that way. But don't friends fill a 'void'? Aren't physical 'voids' taken care of in other ways?

I guess what I'm getting at is....if you are both on the same page, and neither of you necessarily need it, but you both enjoy it.....is it OK and possible to just see each other under the parameters established - aka if you both know you are not each other's 'life mate'? [/color]

Maybe you don't want to marry again & I don't think that means you not allowed to have a physical relationship with someone.

If that's what you want & that's what he wants why not, you are consenting adults.

Yes but dating is also an opportunity to get to know a person better before there is a final judgement as to whether the relationship will be allowed to progress to the next level or will be terminated where it is. As long as there is a clear understanding between the two people that going out together does NOT make the relationship an exclusive and committed one, then there shouldn't be any problem is continuing to date each other.

BUT if there is physical intimacy [sex] then the potential for developing strong feelings by one or both, is extremely likely. If this happens then there is the potential of at least one person getting emotionally hurt and then a good friendship will end up self-destructing. The no-strings attached relationship becomes nothing more than a joke. So you may want to consider very carefully if this possible scenario is something that you might want to avert.

TMCM

TMCM,

True enough. Do you think it's possible for two people to be honest enough (with themselves and the other) to admit to emotionally going beyond a mutually noncommitted relationship?

I am quite certain that I do not want to be emotionally involved with anyone else. I have taken a long time to get where I am emotionally (feeling independent) and am not ready to give that up yet. Particularly on someone who I don't think is 'material.'

Which I guess then leads me to my next question. I know I am not ready to look for a new mate right now (aka my definition of 'dating' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) - and I am perfectly fine with that. In fact, I am finally beginning to enjoy not being controlled, not having to answer for everything, and being myself without worrying whether it will anger or upset anybody. I am practicing being honest (with myself and others) about my feelings, standing up for myself, allowing myself to feel anger, and feeling secure with being imperfect.

My next test will be if I can sustain a relationship with these newfound skills. I know in my heart that although I am applying them in my life, they are not as 'ingrained' or 'habitual' as they need to be yet. Therefore, I know I am not ready for any kind of emotional relationship. Not to mention that I am still finishing the grieving process.

But how do you really know when you are ready to date? I am very secure right now being single. Perhaps even too secure (if there is such a thing) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.

I would assume that I would be ready when I completely finish grieving and when I feel my personal/emotional changes have become natural and habitual. I feel I can monitor the changes......but I am having trouble monitoring the grieving. Just when I think I have done all the grieving I can, it sneaks up on me. I often wonder if it is similar to the recovery of the BS - it will always be there, but with time and growth, it will become less frequent and less intense.

Today caught me by surprise. Even when I saw MJR and his girlfriend, I did not cry or feel sad. But going through our marital and relationship items hit me hard.

So how do you know when you are truly finished grieving, and then are healthy enough to look for a mate?

Again, not looking now, but just curious......

If I understand the question correctly, you are wondering if it is "ok" to have a physical relationship with someone you do not consider marriage material. I think the answer is no, it is a bad idea.

There is no such thing as physical contact without consequences. You have to decide whether the benefits outweigh the costs, IMO that is unlikely.

Benefits are limited to a fleeting feeling of being "wanted", and the chemical reactions to being touched, when touch deprived for long time. While desireable in a sense, these benefits are of no real value, especially when seperated from the expectation of a deepening relationship with a likeminded, and worthy potential love interest.

The consequences are many.

1. Physical interactions are one of the way we "build" relationships, that is why it is important not to get ahead of where one is in the process of "decideing" they want to explore deeper with a potential partner. By letting someone meet physical needs, they are as Dr. Harley clearly explains, meeting an emotional need, and you are growing a relationship, with someone you do not want...this is emotionally confusing, and may lead to more physical involvement than you planned on... It may also result in the other party feeling they have a connection with you (which can lead to all sorts of unplesantness), that you do not want.

2. It is a relationship, even if a shallow one, no strings blah blah blah. That means you are spending some amount of resources, time, that could be put to better use on self-growth, or dating multiple people with the intent to find a compatible partner (ceasing dating anyone as soon as they no longer contribute to your figuring out who you are, what you want in someone).

3. Succombing to letting someone meet your emotional needs, even when you don't see them as worthy, is a sellout of yourself. It means you have trouble with boundaries, and self-introspection. People who overeat, take recreational drugs, engage in risky behaviors, get drunk, and so forth have similar problems they should be working on. Medicateing to feel good is not a healthy life strategy.

4. One is taking some physical risk as well, especially women. By allowing a man physical access to you, even holding, touching, kissing, places you at risk as you choose to be alone with him. You have no idea what any man is capable of, no matter how well you think you "read" him. At least if one is developing a real relationship, with someone you can see yourself being in-love with (and assuming the physical development is going at a reasonable pace), then you "know" this person, you are connecting in many different ways, ways that mean something. Not true otherwise. And their is the risk of std's, even kissing can give one herpes, and if passion overcomes some moment, you could end up with a harsh consequence for walking this road.

5. Loss of self-respect. When one engages in physical behavior with another with no intention of a real relationship, you are using them...true, you may be using each other, with consent, but that won't protect you from the emotional degradation of being a people user, a taker. Hardly the sort of self-growth we should strive for. Trying to turn it into a friends with benefits is a transparent rationalization. I (and sure many of you) have friends of the opposite gender, we don't make out with them...do we? Is not friendship, it is promiscuity.

6. As for not liking someone as a partner, but feeling a "chemistry"....so what? Unless you are yeilding to mother nature and want to procreate, ignore it, recognize it for what it is. We all are certainly attracted to many people physically, but if we have any sense, before we act on it, take risks we will no doubt come to regret, we should first ask ourselves what is going on, why am I doing this, and make a healthy "decision", not just follow some hormones...or is that pheromes?

Why not simply recognize your hunger for what it is LIT, (lonliness, low self-esteem, etc.) allow yourself to recover, on your own (build your emotional muscles)...date properly when ready, and let the natural progression of a relationship (including the physical side) nurture you at that time....then right way, don't sell yourself out for a quick fix now. This is actually your 1st "date", and it has run it's course....move on.

I agree also with TMCM, it is nonsensical to think one can have a physical relationship that is not also emotional...is impossible, well is for normal people, sociopaths/naricissits are pretty good at using folks.

As for nams observation, yes you give up physical relations if you don't want a permanent partner....otherwise you are no different than any other sex addict, no matter how consenting it is....but indeed, if one is going to go that route, find another people user. Meeting the EN of SF is dangerous and unhealthy outside of a committed relationship.

The other question, how do you know when ready to date. I think you have it worked out, you monitor yourself, your reactions, you allow some time to pass so you can have a proper perspective (less emotional)...and you reach a place of acceptance, you know you wouldn't date your ex again, even if possible, and you are not distressed (sad is different, that is grieveing what was lost) about them moving on with someone else. The other part is you have to get back in the "game", you can't know you are ready to date, until you actually do it, and see how it goes.

Three reasons to "date":

1. To get some practice, much like interviewing for a job you don't really want in order to hone your interviewing skills.

2. To get to know someone in order to evaluate their potential as a partner, much like interviewing for a job which you are not sure you want in order to learn whether it seems like a good match.

3. To try to confirm whether someone you think you want as a partner really is a good match.

There are of course other reasons, but in my opinion most of those other reasons are bad ones.

L.I.T., whether or not it's "wrong" for you to "see" this guy, it's certainly not very smart. You're not asking for trouble, you are virtually begging for it.

My first suggestion to LIT is walk away from this. Spending some time along, getting to know yourself, can be valuable and rewarding.

OTOH, we can't control when someone comes along that piques our interest, and I remember a few "someone's" that had my attention. Sometimes we have to just DO something, and we can't even name it or explain it to anyone (or ask permission on MB <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> ), we just have to explore. Discussions like these are great, for thinking through something before jumping in, so I'm kidding about the "permission" thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm just thinking back to my dating adventures over the last 3 years <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />. Sometimes I wish I had a council to help me through it!!! And sometimes I'm glad I didn't, so I could just wander through the jungle on my own. Yes, there were hurts, but I also learned.

Now... perhaps some of us have different opinions.... or perhaps *I* need straightening out too. But the arguments I've read so far haven't convinced me yet. Maybe I'm stubborn. When Harley's "Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders" came out, I had a hard time understanding it, and hated deciding that I was leaning towards renting. But isn't this OK at certain stages??? Isn't this Ok for LIT? It sounds like some of you are saying the only purpose of dating is to find a life-mate. I disagree. What's wrong with companionship? What's wrong with "hanging-out" with someone, as long as you both know it? Is there anything really wrong with enjoying being single, not ready to settle down, but enjoying the company of the opposite sex, with a buddy? OK, I see a few cautions some of you raised about someone getting hurt. That happens on real "dates" too.... in real "dating" too.

Here's my situation LIT. I started dating a wonderful man in Sept '02. He jumped in head-first, rebound because it was really too soon after he lost his wife. I took things slowly, but didn't run the other way. We agreed we would take things one day at a time. We constantly said we were happy together "for now", keeping communication clear and open, that there were no promises, and we were enjoying the journey one step at a time. We were committed and monogamous. OK - -> 2 years went by, and I decided to break up. I wanted the freedom to see other men, and wasn't sure *he* was the one for me. But, we are still friends, and as long as neither of us is getting serious with anyone else, we still have SF. It's like we've taken the commitment out of it, and we go out sometimes. Dinner, talking on the phone, hanging out at home, helping each other out around the house, movies, etc. (Monogamy is important to both of us, so when one of us is ready to move on to another serious relationsip, we will let go.)

Is that weird? Is is wrong? I don't know. Who sets these rules anyway? Someone always gets hurt in breakups. Someone might get hurt in the "buddy" thing too. Soooo.... I guess my opinion... is your buddy thing sounds OK to me.

Not about rules faith, is about consequences, everything has a price, and the price of promiscuity is very very high. That's why friends with benefits is a bad choice. Physical relationships can only be experienced in a healthy way in a committed (which means marriage, or lifetime effort) relationship, is not a rule, anymore than wearing seatbelts is a rule (ok, that is a rule too, but not the point), you wear it cause of consequences...even though you may dodge the bullet many times not wearing it...why take the chance.

As for you, you have seriously altered the likelihood of success in finding a mate (consequences) cause you have this quasi relationship using someone (and they you) to get an itch scratched (which is all sex is when it is not about building an intimate relationship). The resources you vest in maintaining that, are not available to pursue others. Do you plan on telling potential prospects about your promiscuous (which is sex without committment) philosophy? If not, (cause you meet a guy with moral standards and know he would have issues with that, and you don't want to lose him), then you build a relationship on a lie (anythime we don't practice radical honesty, we reduce the likelihood of successful relationships, that means we are obligated to reveal anything we have reason to know affects someones choice of us...obviously that includes our sexual history). Or you tell him, and he decides ya know, she has some kind of issues with needing things the wrong way, and leaves...why be in that position faith? What is going on inside you that you need this kind of validation? That is the real problem, and by not dealing with it, you are less likely to be a good partner to someone else. Celibacy is ok, and it motivates us differently then if we have a sex buddy (which is no different than sleeping around, is just sleeping around with same guy). Anyways faith, hope this doesn't make you mad, you offered yourself up for comment, and there it is....not about rules, is about consequences..are you ok with paying the price...even ones you may not anticipate (such as acquiring an std cause your bf decides if one buddy is good, 2 is better and neglects to tell you...why take those kinds of risks..for what faith?).

No, I'm not mad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for the comments. I'll think... and see what else comes up here... and I'll be back.

Faith1

good..whew...

I guess I have opened a can of worms...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I was afraid of that.

First, I would like to thank everybody for their perspectives. Each one is unique based off religious beliefs, moral beliefs, and experience.

I would also like to thank those of you who didn't assume I had already made my decision, and who didn't deem 'physical' to necessarily mean 'sex.'

I will admit - I am attracted to the man. Not because I need to feel 'wanted', but because I think he is a good looking, kind person who will someday make somebody else a good partner.

And, for me, physical can mean I allow him to put a hand on my leg. It might mean I could kiss him. The 'sex' issue involves a lot more trust for me.

For me, this thread is more about exploring what 'boundaries' should be set outside a M. It's been YEARS since I've dated, and even before my M, I did not really date. I was always in a committed relationship. I suppose that's why the idea of 'seeing' someone is slightly confusing for me.

In general, I don't necessarily believe that physicality outside of a committed and marriage-intent relationship is bad. I do believe that if both people are looking for the same thing, and if both people can be honest about it....then there is the issue of companionship, conversation, and general enjoyment of company that are to be considered in addition to whatever physical parts are involved.

Does this mean that it's right for me at this point? Not necessarily. All I know are the facts:
~ I'm not ready for another marriage right now.
~ I am still grieving the old M.
~ I am happy with myself and who I have become.
~ I am not ready to trust someone with my vulnerabilities yet.
~ I do like and am attracted to this man.

As for what I will do about it, I think I'm just going to hold off for now, and reevaluate as I go along.

While I respect the opinion of those that hold to the notions of 'no physicality until marriage', I will admit that the prospect of never kissing another man until I am sure we will wed is very disappointing to me. I think kissing can be a beautiful thing, and a special way to show one's affection for another. But that's just my VHO.

Just out of curiosity, for those that would (or are) holding off on physicality - is any physical contact acceptable? And if so, how do you determine the boundary?

Thanks again for all your opinions.

Sure, I have an opinion. First let me say this thread was a little confusing cause the boundaries we were talking about weren't clear, so was kinda generalized..and was mixed up in also your not considering the person as potential partner, which then brings in why, who, how we date. All these things matter in the specifics.

Dating is about discovery, so sure, can date someone you don't think you'd marry, cause you might have fun, you might find out something about yourself, and you might change your mind, and if not, are better able to know what attracts you--but not enuf, so can select other prospects more successfully. One should not date someone with marriage in mind, but one must date if one is to marry. Keeping that in mind, each relationship should be evaluated as to it's usefullness, and be ended when maintaining it is interfereing with other goals (like dating more people, cause ultimately you seek a permanent partner). In the beginning, you date anyone who doesn't seem dangerous, but you will also most likely date a lot of one or two timers..as you get more discerning, most likely will have longer relationships, possibly make a friend (even though not a romantic interest), and craft a life. Eventually you will take the plunge to be exclusive, and then see how all that works (or not), but emerge smarter and eventually marry the right person (hopefully). For those who only want friends with benefits, I have nothing to offer, IMO sex outside of marriage costs more than you get, and is an incredibly stupid way to live, assuming one wants to live as healthy as possible. Either be single and celibate, or married and sexually active, in-between is a psychological wasteland fraught with little benefit and great risk. I understand some may choose committment without the "license", I think that is pretty much marriage, but the reasons why not the paper can reveal a problem...anyways, moving on.

Re the physicality. What is it about? Why do it at all? Well besides basic drive for sex, and human touch....it is one of the primary tools for building intimacy, which is what we seek. But just as we eat to live, how we eat is crucial to our well-being, so is pursing our need for sex/touch. It seems that intimacy is best built with time and care (meaning choosing, not just feeling). Too much physical intimacy too fast is a primary predictor of a relationship that will fail and/or be unhealthy. A successful relationship will involve connections made with the mind, psyche, heart, soul, and the body...In that order. One can find love in any order, but is less likely. Note physical is always last...you don't makeout on the first date for example (well some do, but they have poor impulse control)...usually we talk, and have a meeting of the minds, and some psychological attraction...that generates feelings, which opens the door to touch.

Well, without trying to go into all the permutations, suffice to say NO physical contact before marriage is not only silly, it is nonsensical, it deprives one of some of the knowledge you need to make a committment. The issue is are there healthy boundaries, and how to implement them. IMO the boundaries fall into 3 categories.. 3. intercourse. 2. genital contact (oral, manual, or any other way) 1. Kissing, hand-holding, massageing, embracing, lap sitting, and so forth. There are also visual/audio components... #2 includes enuf clothes you are not "exposed", #2 also includes explicit sexual talk. #1 would include skimpier dress, sexcual inuendo (as long as not hard core) etc.

By sorting these things out, it gives a person the tools to make decisions on. Clearly intercourse is intercourse, it is not oral sex, they are different in very fundamental ways, intercourse makes you pregnant (BC notwithstanding), which is why oral sex is popular amongst those who want to maintain an intercourse boundary. But oral sex/genital contact/orgasms is clearly a lot more involved than putting your tongue in someones mouth. Since physical contact creates emotional bonds (we are meeting an EN right?), we want to make sure those bonds are desired and in balance with the other areas. The problem is, being physical is easy, you just do it, no promises, no expectations of behavior, your body just feels good, so you do it..is a no-brainer. That is why one needs boundaries they are committed to...and should figure out before they date anyone...or as soon as possible if they have not done so yet and find themself awash with feelings and confusion. Possibly being carried away in the moment, and deeply regretting it later (the usual outcome).

Some may argue what difference, just do what feels good, consenting adults blah blah blah. Yep, we all have the right to do all sorts of things, but if those things carry serious consequences and we don't factor them in to our DECISION, rather than act on feelings...we are pretty foolish. Which is why these kinds of conversations are helpful, they provide the "reason" for decisions. Unless someone is of a different species, none of us are exempt from consequences...the road to hell is paved with many things, including broken lives because or sexual promiscuity and the empty notion that no-one is gonna get hurt, we are all adults, we consent...well, don't work that way unfortuneately, can't repeal the laws that govern our psychology.

The details can vary, and maybe rightly so for different people, or even different combinations...when to hold hands, when to go for (or accept) a first kiss, when to open your mouth, when to romantically embrace, when to run your hands through someones hair...etc. etc. No one can dictate that for another, but IMO none of the choices in #1 are particularly unwise, one could go to fast, too slow, but regardless the relationship should be able to handle it. In general, I think it is a good idea to have a solid effort of communication before anything but flirting type of contact (light hand touch being most common). And a couple dates before any kiss. Once formal dating has been accepted (a second date would seem to be the start of a pattern), then hand-holding (when feels right), more hand contact, back rub, whatever seems to work (depends on the touch quotient of the two...some are touchers, some are not, etc.) and on it goes. If people date very much, and it is working, and there is chemistry, they will start kissing passionately before long...and this all seems good, a romance in full blossom....if one does not feel this, and the "knowing" part is taking longer, that is fine too, and one should resist allowing much physical contact (even if that feels good) until the other stuff catches up...or you move on.

For the most part I think one should remain in #1 until marriage, there is plenty of physical expression...the boundary line may get pushed, and is not clear where breast contact falls, but I think it is the boundary with #2 (and should not occur without clearly being in a committed, exclusive relationship that is leading toward a marital committment). Is not genital contact, and is a pretty significant expression of trust and developing intimacy, but people have to work that one out for themself I think. It is clear #3 is a marital boundary, some argue they want to go for a ride and check out the livestock first, rather than discover a sexual incompatibility after marriage. I can see that argument, and hey, we are committed and marrying, so why not. Well, one reason is that is essentially (whether you do or not) living with someone pre-maritally, and that increases the likelihood of marital failure...and indeed, people often do realize on the eve of wedding, they really don't want to marry...well, if been sleeping with them, that may be enuf to go through with the wedding. Not to mention thousands of people with great pre-marital sex, marry and the sex suddenly changes, so what's that about? Well, means you selected poorly, someone who was only in pursuit, and playing the game, but hopefully you allready figured that out and had left earlier. Likewise not having intercourse, but having chosen wisely, and being well-connected, chances are the sex will be great...however, I do think a number of things need to happen just prior to marriage (pre-marital counselling), cause as we all know, marriage is a whole nother ballgame. One thing is a very frank, and explicit discussion of sexual expectations, and a thorough meeting of the minds on any thing sounding conflictual. That should serve just as well as taking your honey for a test ride. There are lots of other reasons pre-marital intercourse is bad news, and no good ones.

As for #2, that is a tough call, cause the arguments seem less conclusive than for intercourse...but actually they are just as valid, only for little different reasons. The main one being genital contact and orgasms tend to bond us deeply to our partner, which then interferes with our obligation (to self) to be sure someone is a good emotional, intellectual, psychological, spiritual fit, that takes time, and if we are in the throes of deep physical intimacy, we are not going to do as good a job, and will find walking away is harder.

I firmly believe (as apparently do most successful therapists, who made life work studying these things...Harley, Clouds, McGraw, et al) there is a right way and many wrong ways to build a life long satisfying relationship, and not having a thorough understanding (and plan) of this means more chance of failure. "rules" about communicating, conflict resolution, too high expectations, physical contact, lots of things..are not to "control" us, but to provide us with the tools and insights to make good choices.

So LIT to answer your question, you can date someone you don't think you'd marry, and I don't see any big problem with kissing them if you both want too, or hold hands etc. But I suspect as you date, and your feelings about him as a prospect for deeper relationship continues to wane, you will have less interest in physical contact. The other thing is that people who date need to have some conversations fairly early on about expectations and core values. The physical conversation is important. If you say you think sex before marriage is not wise, and the other says, oh, I think it should be by 3rd date, so we know we really are compatible....then there is a problem, better to part company right now, even if he says he will respect your boundary, the problem is your values are too far apart. Worthy males will not have sex with a woman they aren't prepared to marry (or at least talk themself into thinking that)... There will be plenty of arguments about whether that is ok pre-maritally or not...but regardless the male should be willing to marry, or heading that way...otherwise you are just being used, that's how males work psychologically. If you don't mind being used, fine, but don't think for a minute sex automatically means anything in a relationship sense to a male, or implies emotional connections. You will have to discern that some other way, and one of the ways is his willingness to court you, without bedding you.

Well, is a subject one could talk alot more about, but that is the basics IMO. Is not about rules, is about goals and consequences. I have experienced a wide range of those these things, including some promiscuous behavior in my youth (but I gave it up, cuase could see was stupid). One dating effort involved a woman with strong boundaries (we shared the intercourse boundary), I was arguing more flexibility pre-maritaly with #2 choices...but as I really thought about it, I realized what I have said here.... and made sense cause some other experiences did not go so well, and I regret them. On the other hand, she has no issues with #1 stuff, but wanted to go slow. Being the agreeable guy I am, and figuring sexual boundaries should be somewhat the choice of a woman, I said fine. Was long distance (eharmony) so we talked and made friends a few months before decideing to meet...on-line is another world, but this initial process is equivalent to first few dates...minus the feedback of meeting (which has to be rectified). So ya meet, have expectations, they are either met, or dashed (have had both happen). If met, you are in that awkward what to do stage, but she had asked I not expect to kiss, and I had agreed...but said rest has to kinda see what happens. Ended up we were comfortable together, so I held her hand, massaged her neck/back etc.. and was just minding my business having fun...when out of nowhere she kissed me...go figure....laughing.... The point is, by having boundaries, and discussions, it leads to other much less stressful situations, and let's stuff unfold in a more natural manner. Was a simple kiss, I took it as that, returned it a couple times..and later when leaveing she thanked me for not trying to turn it into a makeout...the point being, take ones time, there is no rush, and by hashing out the physical boundaries long before, she feels safe and not needing to be on gaurd, letting me see more real expressions of where she is at. There is room (and rightly so) for physical expression, but it should have boundaries, and make sense, and not feel stressful.

L.I.T., are you talking about a friendship 'with benefits'? If you are then my answer would have to be a maybe leaning heavily towards no. But if you do make the decision to experiment with a FWB [friendship with benefits] then you'd be wise to insist that there MUST be well established and mutually agreed upon rules before proceeding with such a relationship, rules such as:

1. Clear, constant and unambiguous communication ALL the time [i.e. the relationship is NOT exclusive, and that it will be immediately terminated with NC [no contact] once there is the establishment of an exclusive relationship by one or both with a third party].

2. Purposefully distancing the number of physical encounters with one another [i.e. once or twice a month] to avoid an emotional attachment from developing.

3. Mutually agree not to participate in ANY non-sexual oriented activities which can help start the developing an emotional ties with one another.

Will these rules guarantee that there won't be any emotional attachment? Of course not but couple those rules with circuit breakers such as constant vigilance and a willingness to terminate the FWB, then it is possible to minimize, not eliminate, the risk of an emotional attachment. But as Elmer Fudd used to say "Be vewy, vewy, cawefull". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

TMCM

My personal preference is to limit physical contact to "non-sexual" forms of physical contact such as hand-holding, hugging, etc. I would prefer to reserve kissing on the lips until after we were seriously talking about marriage.

Why that boundary? For me, it's not because I think it would be a sin to go that far (or farther), and it's not because I am afraid that going that far would entice me to go farther (for instance, to the point of what I do believe is sin). It's because if we decided that marriage was not right for us, I would want to remain friends or at least be able to look her in the eye and know that I had behaved honorably toward her.

I place the specific boundary at kissing on the lips because, frankly, "I think kissing can be a beautiful thing, and a special way to show one's affection for another." Some treasures are precious enough to reserve for special purposes.

I wouldn't give a diamond ring to just any woman to whom I happened to take a fancy. For me, a kiss carries a high level of symbolic meaning, much like the ring.