I appreciate you guys' responses. You are right, there is no easy answer to this. Sometimes I wonder if I did the right thing by going so quickly to Plan B. The #1 reason was that I needed to protect my love for WW. She had already withdrawn from the M, moved out to live with a girlfriend, refused to do counseling or anything and wouldnt be honest about the A even after I caught her spending the night at OM's house.
Has anyone ever gone from NC in Plan B back to contact without proof the A has ended? Since her girlfriend's H has returned from the Middle East, WW has had to move in with her brother and his family. She has continued to deny the A to her brother. But her brother told her if that if she is in a relationship with OM, he would never accept OM into the family. So, the move to her brother's house has definitely made the continuation of the A more difficult. There is the possibility the A has ended. Although contact has more than likely continued since they work for the same company.
On the way out of church Sunday morning, I told my pastor that I had decided to employ every tactic I could to slow down this D train and fight for my marriage. He was happy to hear that, but he suggested that WW and I should sit down and talk. I replied...."yeah, maybe." To me, it is all a timing issue. I dont want to talk if the result is going to move me further away from my goal.
One issue that came up at the courthouse and she has made comment to with friends, is that she is upset that I changed the locks on the house and she cant come by and see our two dogs and the cat. THAT makes me feel real good, as if the animals are more important than I am, but I guess in her twisted mind they are. Or, is there the possibility that the animals are just part of why she would want to come by? I dunno. So many questions.

Hi WCIT,

I just wanted to jump in here and say that I think you did the right thing with Plan B.I didn't do a lengthy Plan A either but it was enough to show my WH what he was missing, that we could work things out and that I was willing but I was also in danger of losing my love for my WH.It was rapidly disintegrating because of what was happening.As it is with most here,the A was such an abhorrent, disgusting act to me that I was in danger of throwing him out forever that month and filing.I HAD to separate myself from him and his actions.There just was no other choice,mentally, physically or emotionally.That is why I think it's important to remember that the principles at MB are more like guidelines than written in stone.I cannot think of anyone here that has done the plans exactly as they were written without any "mistakes" along the way.To me it's just impossible.We are human and fallible and even Dr.Harley admits to how many marriages still do not recover from something like Infidelity.

Could I have done Plan A longer? No,I just do not think I was capable at the time.Would it have made any difference anyway? Who knows? There just aren't any guarantees with this stuff no matter what.

You asked if anyone has gone from NC in Plan B to contact again without proof the A ended? Sure,many many times.It was a real problem on this board for some time.People were accepting their WS's back without a plan,too soon,without NC firmly in place with a repentent WS,etc( can you ever be 100% sure?).In my experience it has never worked.The WS always resorts back to bad behavior,whining,withdrawal and contact with OP.And usually it takes more than one try at the recovery phase.I can't recall anyone who went "cold turkey" with the OP the first try.Not in recent memory that is.

Also,I can appreciate that you are questioning the D train decision and you want to slow it down.That is your choice.But,God does hate D but he also,IMO,hates Adultery which is why it's one of the 10 Commandments.Divorce isn't and it's no less painful but realize that D may be your divine order.We are all presented with challenges and many are so hurtful but if we are to believe that God has a hand in all this then we need to follow our hearts and minds,what we feel is right given our circumstances.For me,I truly felt that it was filing for a D to release me from the pain of staying with a man who refused to change or who had his priorities straight.I could not force that which was not.It's a "noble" cause to fight for your marriage but the reality is also that it takes two and always will take two to make it work and thrive.Marriage is also not a threesome.

Anyway,I'm rambling.I don't know your whole story so I was just responding to this thread.

O

OctoberGirl,
I appreciate your thoughtful response and I am sorry that your marriage has gone the way it has. I agree with what you said, it may be the divine order and if that turns out to be the way it is, I will accept it. I think though that I have to take this path to find out if it truly is the divine order. The way I am feeling is that it would be wrong for me to continue down this D track with WW while she undergoing psych counseling. I think I need to slow this thing down while she is going through this. Who knows? Maybe through this counseling she will get some help that will enable her to think more clearly.
I wasnt sure how to take your comments on going from Plan B nc to contact again. Is it a mistake or have others done it successfully? Again, my pastor is advising me to talk to her. I sure would like to have some degree of confidence that it is the right thing to do. I guess it all comes down to timing and as Suzet said, I have to use my gut instincts. To me gut instincts are really the guidance from the Holy Spirit.
Anyway, any further thoughts on this are appreciated.

Not much time for a long answer here...

But, my sitch was similar to yours. Even ended up going to court. We are in recovery now.

So do a search back to June 2002 and follow my threads. You will see how similar out situations are, and the things I did and the mistakes I made.

That may help you here.

In His arms.

Hi again,

Do what you feel is right for you WCIT.We just give opinions based on our experiences.That's all really.For me,I went through 2 major false recoveries and several other mini ones,taking my WH back after he promised this and that,talking about counseling and what we could do to make our marriage work,etc,etc,etc.He always went back to contact with the homewrecker and as many here can attest to,that kind of repeated betrayal,over and over,of being lied to,contacting OP again and again,the withdrawal attitude,ALL that can send you over the edge.I was there myself,standing on the edge saying I just can't take this amymore.The wondering,the lies,the contact,the repeated betrayals.I was like,This CANNOT be my life! I have to make the change myself or I will lose it because my WH is not doing right by me or our children and our families,he is solely thinking about his own needs.Making the decision to file for a D was and still feels right to me and I have not looked back since.I just could not go back and stay in that situation.

But,point is,that was right for ME. I had people support me here and a couple of other's who thought maybe I was hasty or plain didn't do the right thing.But how can anyone know what that is for another? The answer is they can't.We can give suggestions,advice and sometimes the answer seems so clear to some of us and another poster here just doesn't see it or maybe that is not the way for them at that time(like my suggestions to AD).

All I can say is that many of us FEEL when a certain decison is right and the time is right.Maybe that will happen for you too.You reach a certan point where you say," I have had enough".That was what I did.

Would I say taking my WH back all those times was a mistake? No.I wouldn't.It hurt terribly to be betrayed again but I can say with all honesty,in my heart and mind,I know I did what I could to save my marriage and I did give my WH more than enough times to make things right and give us a chance.But for me,there is a limit to what I will allow someone to do to me.I had,in essence,told him I would no longer be treated this way and that I wanted to be loved and cared for by someone who respected me.He obviosuly didn't anymore.His ACTIONS spoke well.

O

Yes, though "plan B" dissolved into a modified "plan B" very quickly.

Contact has (I believe) just ended for good after 3 years in recovery.

You sound committed to Christ, but I am very curious about your wife's relationship with Christ. I will hold off on further comments until you get a chance to respond on that subject.

God bless.

Forever,
boy that is a tough one. I fear that right now my wife is as far away from Christ as one could be. She was raised Catholic and was forced as a child to attend mass every week. She played the organ in church as a teenager. She could sit with me in church and recite most of the responsive readings like the Apostle's Creed from memory. I now wonder if it was simply trained regurgitation. Before she moved out and I was merely suspicious, I had a discussion with her about people in conflict with themselves and what was the source of the conflict. She refused to acknowledge the existence of Satan and how he can get into our lives. I asked her about her thoughts on the Holy Spirit, and she didnt really think the Spirit spoke to us and that the inner voice is our conscience. So, despite the Catholic upbringing, I dont think she has developed a close intimate relationship with Christ. I think it was likely going through the motions due to training.
A mutual friend of ours confirmed this for me unknowingly when he told me that she told him she doesnt think that Satan can trick us into believing what is true is in fact false. He feels that Satan has definitely tricked her and she believes that what she is doing is right. Messed up isnt it? Anybody know an excorcist?

Hi Texas,

I saw a call out to vets to take a look at this thread and so here I am. I expected to find someone who was truly lost....but that isn't what I found. What I found was someone who seems to have their head and heart together and is acting with both ethics and love. I don't favor long Plan As....it's my experience that if the affair doesn't end during exposure and becomes entrenched....going to Plan B quickly is a better alternative...for the reasons you've already stated. I also believe that if SHE is the one that wants the divorce....let her hurry and you just take your time...time is your best ally right now. The longer the process takes....the better chances that the biochemistry of the affair will naturally wear off and her head will clear. I think you're doing just fine. I have only a few suggestions. Since you are in Plan B...who is your intermediary? If you don't have one....please get one. Allow her to have visitation with the pets....for folks who don't have children...they are like children and should have nothing to do with this separation. I know lots of folks in Plan B who have similar issues and arrange furry children visitation. The other thing I'd like you to consider is this: Don't make DIVORCE NECESSARY by witholding legitimate support....otherwise, she'll have no choice but to file in order to survive. On the one hand, you may feel as though you're "financing" the affair....but if you make her financially dependent on HIM....that isn't good either...yanno? Affair or not....she is entitled to some of the assets....and witholding them completely has lost it's purpose.

Much of this stuff is counter-intuitive....for instance...most folks go crazy when the the WS and OP move in together....and yet...that's the time when the fantasy usually explodes!!



(((((((((((((crushed)))))))))))))))

[[[[[WasCrushedNTexas]]]]] - before we get started let me give you a "manly" hug. The road you seem to be embarking upon is a difficult one, but know that the Lord WILL be with you even on the darkest days. Trust HIM, not yourself, MB'ers, or anyone else. Commit your ways to the Lord, no matter where it takes you or how scary it seems.

Okay, let's talk a little because there are many things that you may have considered before this point and there are things that seem to have changed from what you have posted on this thread. First, thank you for the information about your wife, it does help.

While I don't claim to know your wife's heart (only God truly does), we are told that we can recognize those who have committed their lives by their actions. Yes, I know we can be fooled, as I said, we can't know someone's heart. But for most of us who are not actively seeking to deceive someone, our actions will tend to show whether or not we have surrendered our lives to Christ. It begins with things like: "If you loved me you would keep my commands," and "Take up YOUR cross and follow me." There are many others, but the gist of the thought is that a Christian is bought and paid for by Christ. We are no longer our own, we belong to Him.

Someone "gets to that point" by understanding that they are sinner; are convicted of the fact that they ARE a sinner, hopelessly lost and separated from God by sin; confess that sinful state and repent of sin; and receive God's gift of forgiveness of our sin because of what Christ did on our behalf. Having done that, we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit who continues to help us along the journey of Sanctification, including convicting us of sin when we do sin (we will, we are not yet glorified).

From what you have described, it would seem that your wife might consider herself a "Christian by association." That is, she was "raised" in a family that believed in God. But salvation is a personal thing. It is "one on one" between the individual and God. "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone opens the door, I will come in and make my home with them..."

It does not sound as though your wife ever had a personal experience with God where she surrendered her life to Christ. Certainly, her actions indicate "less than" a "godly life."

Understand that this is difficult ground in which to be too dogmatic because even "born-again" Christians sin, including adultery. Sin is THAT pervasive and enticing. YET, for those who have truly accepted Christ, there is a "Prodigal Son" moment when the false veneer of "doing one's own thing" is ripped away and reality begins to be seen. We can run, as Jonah did, but we cannot escape God.

So where does that leave us? Most likely with an "unevenly yoked" marriage. Your options are clear, and it seems like you have chose the very difficult option of remaining married and enduring whatever must be endured until your wife "comes to her senses." Let me warn you....you will have to hold fast to Philippians 4:13 as you walk this road. Unless you are "Superman," you will be sorely tried, if my own experience is any similar roadmap. We may be Christians, but we are also human men with human emotions and weaknesses. Lean heavily upon Christ when there seems to be "no hope," for Satan will assail you with those days.

I sometimes wish that I could see as God sees, but then I also realize what that would entail and I shudder. So let me just say that none of us knows the future. Your marriage MAY not survive, because it WILL take the two of you to make it survive. Until you are both committed to "trying," even though the task may seem formidable, you can only do "your part" as Christ's "stand-in" in your marraige. Agape love will gain a much greater meaning in your life. Sacrifical love will take on substance not just teriminology. Endurance will be learned beyond anything you thought possible....because you will love your wife (lost in her sin) AS Christ first loved us.

The "battle" for your marriage must first be fought on the spiritual side. Your primary concern must be for your wife's soul, not her flesh beside you in marriage. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added unto you" is the thought pattern that you must embrace in dealing with your wife.

Nasty, bitter, even vicious things will be said by your wife. Ignore them. Satan is the father of all lies and has never stopped. Those following after him will mimic him. You are not interested in the "outside," you remain focused on the real battle, the battle for her soul.

No, it is NOT an easy road you are choosing. But neither was Christ's road. That is why he pleaded with the Father to not have to undergo the Crucifixion to save us. Yet he submitted his human emotions and desires to the Father, and humbly surrendered to the Father's will for US.

The "goal" initially should be for your wife to accept Jesus Christ as her personal Lord and Savior, regardless of whether or not you two will remain married.

That's enough for now. Think about that stuff and perhaps comment a little on your thoughts about it all.

God bless.

"Much of this stuff is counter-intuitive....for instance...most folks go crazy when the the WS and OP move in together....and yet...that's the time when the fantasy usually explodes!!"

>What a powerful insight, Star*Fish! I never thought about it like that, considering one of the main reasons I went back to my H was b/c I started to experience "reality" with the OM. I started picturing what life would be like if we were to be married and grow old together. I shudder now just thinking about it. Then, I started to think about what I do want out of my life, and who I want to grow old with. It's then that I realized I couldn't EVER see myself growing old with anyone else but my H. Amazing when reality slaps you in the face.

Crushed, I truly hope your W sees what she's missing and turnaround before it's too late.

Hang in there!

WCIT,

In addition to ForeverHer’s post to you regarding your walk with Christ (personally AND in this M) and your decision to stay in this M in spite of the circumstances because of your faith, I also want you to read THIS THREAD on H’s and W’s roles in the M as God intended it to be… The thread was created by MortarMan and is excellent IMO. I’m sure you will find the parts specifically on the H’s role in the M, very helpful & insightful. The actions on your part (as suggested in the thread) might also help to lead your W to Christ and (as FH’s has said) eventually accept Him as her personal Lord and Savior.

Blessings,
Suzet

Hi and welcome to MB,

Your posters are quite modest, they have been giving you good support and you seem t/b doing fairly well. Despite the odds. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In plan A the BS learns how to improve themselves and then see their plan in action. It is not about winning the WS back. In reality you don't want the WS back, you want your real W or a improved W back, right?

Ok, then you put your best foot forward and show off your good stuff. Know the WS will babble about the changes not being permanent. Question their changes and don't let any WS babble stick to you. Be Teflon thick. LOL!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Have you read His needs/Her needs? Your W is babbling but some of it c/b based on real stuff. Just need to learn t/d the difference.

L.

To all that have responded......thank you, thank you, thank you! Please know that you all have increased my resolve beyond what I believed was possible.
I saw a sermon by Joel Osteen this past weekend. He was talking about taking the evil present in our lives and turning it around and using it for God's purpose. He spoke specifically about his own sister's failed marriage and how devastated she was, but how she was healed by starting a recovery class at the church. Eventually, after a few years she met the man of her dreams and now has a wonderful marriage and a wonderful family. Joel said that if we plant seeds of good in the face evil, we not only help those around us but we also heal ourselves. To me, thats what this site and the wonderful folks on this site epitomize.

Star*Fish - You are correct in that she is the one who is rushing. Almost one week after I caught her spending the night at OM's house, she rushed down to file for the D. Her atty told my atty that they would like to get it done as quickly as possible.
We do have intermediaries. I named her brother and a mutual friend. Her brother and I have always been close and were hunting lease partners up until 3 weeks ago when he decided he wanted to get out of the leasing situation and purchase property instead. Might be a cover story, I dont know.
Pet visitation - My position on this has been that I didnt really want her in the house while the A was ongoing. Also, I wanted her to feel the full brunt of what she had left behind. Maybe I was being mean and vindictive. I really need to search my heart on this one, but I think you might be right.
As far as finances go...this is the one area I made big, big mistakes in the M. I was under this crazy assumption that separate checking accounts and separate bathrooms would somehow help keep us happy. I always paid the mortgage, the water bill, and every meal out or the expenses if we took trips. Anytime my WW needed money for anything if she was running short, she carried one of my checkbooks and the money was always there for her. She paid out of her account the electric bill, the auto insurance,satellite bill, her car payment and bought most of the groceries. When I confirmed the A, I closed the checking account with her name on it and took over all of the household bills that she was paying. She is living with her brother, not the OM. She asked for money to help with a joint credit card bill (about half of it was for her school and the other half was stuff we did together). I refused at that time. She said that if I could help her she could afford to get an apartment. Well, it sounds like to me that she is having trouble with the A while she is living with her brother. He wont allow it in his house and has said that he will never accept OM. He said this despite her tellng him that she is not having an A. Pretty good indication to me that he really does believe my exposure is accurate.

ForeverHers - My friend, what you wrote was absolutely beautiful and I agree with it completely. The "Christian by association" is spot on. You nailed it right on the head. It wasnt but maybe two months ago that I, through my bible study class Alpha, discovered that it was necessary to invite Christ into the deepest recesses of my heart. I had to ask him to dwell in there and help me to become one with Him and His will. It was at that point, that my relationship with him became personal. It is so much more than responsive readings and ceremony. I want WW to know that. I will pray that the Holy Spirit will guide me as to how best to accomplish that.
The goal is her salvation. I have failed in not fulfilling my role in leading her to that and now she has drifted away. Not only from me but from God. This is now becoming more painful for me than the A. So yes, the goal is to lead her back to God somehow. Even if it means that our M doesnt survive, that has to be the goal.

Back to the pet visitation issue......what is the best way to facillitate this? Should I merely offer her a key to the house and let her come and go as she pleases? Would that not be a complete departure from Plan B? It seems that way to me. Should I offer one of the intermediaries a key and allow them to accompany her there when I am not home? Should I just give her a key and state the boundaries of when she can come by and how long she can stay? Give me some ideas guys and gals. This is kinda scary for me for some reason.

Sorry about the impatience guys! I just didnt want this to get lost in the shuffle. I really need the input on the best way to facillitate the pet visitation while in Plan B. My team is coming home for a homestand starting Saturday and I will be working all day and until the games are over around 10pm. I have been having a friend of mine and his wife come over and feed and spend time with the pets during the evenings when I have games. Maybe I should offer WW the opportunity to come over and hang out with the pets while I am gone in the evenings? I know this might seem like a simple answer to others, but I would really like to hear opinions here.

WCNT -

I too have pets, although my WW and I split them up when she moved out...(and then the OM moved in with her!!!)

As to visitation, what's wrong with letting her come over while you are away? Might be a good chance for you to leave clues out to the changes you are making for the better in your life. Also she might see pictures, mementos, etc that could help draw her out of the fog a bit...

You also then don't have to burden you neighbors with a chore. Kill 2 birds with one stone...

Just my 2 cents.


TM

TM,
that is kinda what I have been thinking. My friends are absolutely disgusted with my WW's behavior. I actually brought it up with them right before the start of baseball season. They had already agreed to come by and help as they love animals and me too I guess. When I brought it up to them they said "do not let her back in this house." I dont know exactly why they said it, unless they wanted to make a statement about supporting me.
WW had sent an email to my parents a couple of weeks ago, trying to justify her actions, which fell on deaf ears since it wasnt grounded in reality or truth. In the email she never admitted to the A, but tried to say that she didnt leave me for another man. Even told my parents that when she initially moved out that she planned on returning. Well, I never saw any indication of that being true. But the really interesting thing was that she said in the email that she had been looking back at our pictures from when we were first married and how happy we were then (when her brother came by to pick up her clothes I made sure to include photo albums). So, I guess that is an indication of the fact that she is mourning the apparent loss of the marriage. Maybe letting her come by to visit might help cut some of the fog even more. I dont know. I am not ready to make that decision without more input. I will talk to my pastor on this one but would like MB input as well.

When my WW and I split up our stuff, I gave her ALL the photo albums....if we do reconcile, we can look at them together...if not, I don't ever want to be reminded of what we had, and then what it became. Let her think about what she chose to do five years from now when she goes to clean out a closet or something.


TM

Can you point me to some threads where I could get caught up on your situation. I'd hate to ask you to repeat what you've probably already written somewhere. I know you are separated and in Plan B, but I don't know the details, what your wife has been up to etc.

Until I know about the entire situation, it's hard to offer suggestions.

For now, let your "guiding light" on the pet visitation issue be, "what would Jesus do?"

God bless.

ForeverHers,
as I am somewhat challenged techically on how to post links, I will briefly give you the history. Second week of January I found a sexually charged text message from OM. When confronted WW offered nothing but denials. I had her have OM call me and he assured me that the message was sent by "accident." While I wasnt sure I believed him as those on this site said it wasnt likely an accident, I decided I would give WW the benefit of the doubt while maintaining vigilance.
About a week later WW started with the "I dont know if I love you like you love me babble." I was devastated and at this point was 100% sure something was going on. First week in January WW moved out to live with a girlfriend whose H had been deployed to the Middle east. Classic "I need space" crap. Still through all this I was Plan A'ing my butt off. End of February I caught WW spending the night at OM's house. I left my business card under the windshield wipers of each of their vehicles. The next day I sent an email telling WW that I could no longer have contact with her as long as she was in the A. I cc'd copies of the email to her parents, brother, and a close circle of friends. This of course angered WW greatly, saying I had no right to do that because this was between her and I. Funny how they say that, when they have brought a third person into the situation. I subsequently changed the locks on the house to insure that I wouldnt be confronted with what I consider a mentally unstable person at any time of the day or night. Anyway, first week of March the D is filed by her. I maintain no contact until we meet at the courthouse with our attorneys to discuss temporary orders and a possible settlement proposal. While maintaining that I dont want a divorce, she reiterates her determination to get one. I then give her a settlement proposal, one that I think will be tough for her to accept. She doesnt accept it of course despite all of the evidence of the A my attorney has in his possession (cell phone records, emails between her and OM and her sister). She and OM work together in a highly regulated area of their company that deals with investments. They are both SEC licensed reps. The consequences of exposure at work will likely cost both of them their jobs. There has now been a court date set for the second week of July. WW has had to move to her brother's house because girlfriend's H has returned from Qatar. Her brother wont accept OM but she continues to deny A to him and her parents. Her parents arent financing her legal costs and still want her to try and reconcile. So, she is isolated. Is struggling financially as she cant afford to get an apartment. All of this is by her choice. She, at what I believe to be the urging of her parents, is now seeing a psychiatrist that is also a nun. The more I think about this, the more I think time is on my side here. I have instructed my attorney to hit the brakes on this d-train. I think it might be possible to get it reset for early 2006. It will be interesting to see what her response will be. My pastor thinks I should break no contact and speak with her. She has told others that she misses our pets a lot. I have heard this from 3 different sources. I am now starting to feel comfortable enough to consider this.
So, basically that is it in a nutshell. Let me know if you have any other questions.

WCNT -

Re: the pet visitation - My H and I had 2 dogs that I adored and was one of the toughest things for me to let go. When I left, I retained a key, so I could come and go as I pleased. Here's something to keep in mind ... every day during lunch, I'd go home to see the dogs, and every day I'd see all the pictures of us on the walls, all the furniture we picked out together and all the memories that collected through 12 yrs of M together. Often, I would stick around to look at each picture and reminesce the things we did and the trips we took. It broke my heart EVERY TIME. Those memories and our long history together were among the biggest reasons that kept me hanging on. Just something to keep in mind when you're trying to decide whether or not to let her see the dogs. It's a great reason/incentive/reminder for her to want to come home.

Warm wishes,