It seems the majority of the dating pool, (anyone unmarried) thinks pre-marital sex is part of a successful strategy to secure a good marriage, or worse recreational, or even just a regular expectation of dating. Those of us who disagree, thinking that choice reduces the likelihood of being in a healthy realationship, seem to annoy these folks. Why I have no idea, since they feel free to promote their expectations. The argument seems to be, well ok, to each their own. But that dog don't hunt, if there were no underlying behavioral principles to relationships MB wouldn't exist, nor would the whole field of relationship/couple therapy, in which most "experts" seem to agree on principles and that they affect us all, whether we want them to or not.

So are there principles that one should follow in regard to the physical develoment of relationships, or not... If not, then we should all just do as we please and not worry these kinds of choices will affect our success....if there are principles, what are they?

Obviously I think there are principles, and that they do work. Rather than yell back and forth I am a free wo/man I can do what I want (duh), why not try to identify the consequences (good and bad) of physical boundaries, and why would we violate them. Heck maybe those of us who discern pre-marital intercourse is a bad choice cause more often leads to bad marriage should rethink our positions, and consider maybe we just have a personal hang-up that needs fixing. So are there principles are not....or is this just a matter of personal preference (like what kind of pizza one likes) and has nothing to do with the success (or failure) of relationship building.

While the big deal is intercourse, and that clearly is something worthy of identifying...it also includes where are the boundaries in general...hand-holding, dancing, kissing ( a whole subject in itself), embracing, touching (genital and non-genital), oral sex, even language sexually explicit talk, even visual stimulation nudity/skinny dipping, taking naked pictures of each other, viewing porn, heck even have phone/video sex now.... Sexuality is a broad subject, and the boundaries vary by intensity IMO. I do think the development of a physical relationship is important too...having none and then marrying would not improve ones odds..so where is the balance, and why is the balance there.

Not sure the responses you are looking for, but I do agree that the prevailing thought today is "Once you're an adult, sex is a natural part of a relationship, regardless if married or not". I have read articles where it seems the norm by about the 3rd to 4th date! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

It's not that I don't enjoy sex or miss it a great deal sometimes. But God tells us that it is not to be outside marriage. I don't want to go against His directions, and I believe He has good reasons for making it that way.

In my opinion, sex without commitment is nothing more than self-pleasure in most cases (Let's face it...why do some guys go seeking drunk women in bars for one-night stands? They're not looking for a lasting commitment!). And sex changes the dynamics of a relationship. It can distort the way you see someone, and cloud your thinking. This isn't a bad thing in a marriage...nothing wrong with rose-colored glasses. It IS a bad thing if two people are dating casually or even more seriously, but aren't compatable. They may not realize this until it's too late, because the physical passion was enough to get them married, but when that cools down they see the real person.

My sister, my friends, my coworkers, and even the therapist I was seeing for a while have poo-poo'd my no-sex-before-marriage commitment. They are all fairly certain it will reduce my chances significantly of ever finding anyone else. They may well be right. I've even had people tell me there's no way they'd marry someone without having SF first because "what if they found out the other person couldn't?". Okay, it's possible, but I'll take my chances.

I plan to stick to my guns on this one. Where does that put me with the other things you mentioned? I'm not sure. I know the really strict (and safest) thinking is no kissing, no touch, not much of anything but hand-holding until marriage.

I'm not sure what the Bible says here, and I may be violating it. I plan on kissing, quite possibly with my mouth not closed. I just like it better that way. I will probaby hug and want to be held (this, of course, assumes I will someday actually FIND SOMEONE!!). Can't say if the relationship is progressing that I might not let a hand brush here or there. And yes, if I could get the guts to be seen in a swimsuit, I'd go swimming or boating (which would make me not very well clothed).

But that's where LL starts to hit the danger zone. Nudity, serious sexual touch...that is risking going to a point of no return and I probably won't risk that. Oral sex (which LL admits to enjoying a great deal <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) will also NOT happen outside marriage, because regardless what Ex-President Clinton may have said--it IS sex (and even if it isn't, it seems to always lead there for me). I think that is playing with serious fire, both Biblically and just from a physical perspective for anyone who intends to wait until marriage.

I don't think having sex improves the odds of a relationship lasting. I certainly put it to the test before I was married (and before I was a Christian), and it did nothing for my marriage. The "new" had worn off by the time we were married.

People may call my view my "personal hangup". I don't see it that way. It is part of my belief system.

But I do admit it really scares me that it may keep me from finding a parter. (Then again, I have to tell myself that if that is what keeps me from finding someone, then God doesn't want me to be in a relationship.)

My views. Others can disagree....

Knight, this is just more assumption on your part. Look at the words you are using..."majority" "anyone unmarried"..where exactly are you getting this information? You are not speaking to the so called "majority" here (if there is one), you are speaking to a completely different group of folks on these boards. Nobody here has said that sleeping with another was how they will find there mate and I don't recall anyone saying that we all just screw whoever we date.


Another assumption on your part. I don't agree with your stand on pre-marital sex but your stand on this doesn't "annoy" me in the least. Are you now "assuming" that anyone that engages in pre-marital sex is "expecting" sex with every one they date? I certainly don't and would not be comfortable (or probably compatible) with a woman who "expected" sexual realations without some sort of serious and deep relationship (long term) first. Your definition of that is marriage, I respect that, mine is different but no less serious.




Live by "your" principles Knight, that is the answer. The choice you make is the epitome of being a "free man/woman". If your physical bounderies are what they are then you have no need of worrying about crossing them. Stick by your choices, live with them, revel in them...you deserve it because you will not have violated yourself and your beliefs.

Deciding to not have "pre-marital sex" is not a "hang-up", it is what you believe in. It isn't as easy as "what kind of pizza you like", or as simple. Some folks have no trouble jumping from bed to bed, and some won't hear of it till after wedding bells ring, I don't know whether either is a recipe for a successful marriage, or whether the middle ground holds more success, AND I don't believe you could come up with satisfactory statistics to prove one point or the other. I'd be happy to argue numbers all day, I can make numbers mean what I want them to mean just like you can if you choose.



THis is the easiest one to answer of all the things you've thrown against the wall Knight.

Bounderies? Physical bounderies?

Simple for me.....

Hand-holding, hugging, dancing and kissing are all acceptable for exploration while dating.

Genital touching, oral sex, nudity, skinny dipping, naked pictures, porn, phone sex, explicit language, and erotic massage are not acceptable to me while still casually dating. Actually some of that stuff isn't acceptable to me after marriage to be honest.

I replied to you in another post you made earlier Knight, read that and this will make more sense.

Good Luck in your dating

RebornMan

LordsLady,

I agree with you from beginning to the end of your post.

Your posts over time prove what a good head you have on your shoulders and even better, you are one funny lady.

I love reading your stuff, you are sensible, honest and very open about the things that are important.

Don't you dare change....lol


RebornMan

Seriously, lordslady, the only partner your stand is going to keep you from "finding" is a partner whom you wouldn't want anyway - because he would not only have an incompatible value system but he would not adequately respect you. If you look at it that way, this should be entirely a non-issue for you.

GNP,

That's actually what I was trying to say, but you did a much better job saying it. Not that God doesn't want me to have a partner necessarily, but that he wouldn't want me to have THAT partner.

Even though I fully intend to remain celibate until/if remarried, should I travel down the marriage road again, I will discuss PRIOR to taking my vows what I feel is acceptable within a marriage. I agree with others--there are some things that are just off limits, period!

(Thanks to the couple Mike's Hard Lemondaids that LL had at her annual cul-de-sac party before writing her previous post, I guess you now know which ones aren't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

<-----buying cases of Mikes Hard Lemonade if it will attract a woman of LordsLady' caliber

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

RebornMan

I think having sex without being married is okay.

GC

RBM<-----buying cases of Mikes Hard Lemonade if it will attract a woman of LordsLady' caliber

Thanks for the smile! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (Actually, I'm such a lightweight that the two on a fairly empty stomach made me a little giddy. A change in my belief system and being married to an alcoholic for 2 decades sort of taught me drinking too much isn't good. So did many miserable hangovers earlier in my life! I rarely drink anymore.)

But if I DO indulge, I'm not a beer girl! Blech! Never did develop a taste for the stuff.

I was a virgin when I married my first husband.
I had pre-marital sex with my second husband.
Both marriages ended in divorce.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.........

Reborn, I appreciate you replied, however your reply seems to be as if the post were to you personally. For the record (although I thought it clear enuf), was MY perception of dating these days in america. The perception is the result of numerous discussion sites visited on-line, as well as articles, and other written materials. I am comfortable it is accurate. I would GUESS the majority, if not 100%, of the women here(MB) who have dated, have been asked for sex before marriage, often after just a few dates. Do you doubt this?

Regardless of my perceptipns though, which you took me to task for (which is fine), the purpose of the post is to seek opinions about whether this is a good thing, or not, and what are the governing principles.

My quote...So are there principles that one should follow in regard to the physical develoment of relationships, or not... If not, then we should all just do as we please and not worry these kinds of choices will affect our success....if there are principles, what are they?
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



reborn...THis is another 'black and white" statement from you. There are principles we should follow. You have drawn that line as your wedding night and good for you, I admire that you will state your principles and live by them. Where you have sidetracked the issue is lumping any one that doesn't wait till their wedding night as "hedonists".

Knight...I am confused, you don't understand the word principle means applies to everyone? That is what I seek discussion about. My premise is that waiting until a permanent committment (usually marriage) is made, for intercourse, and abstaining from any pre-marital intercourse at all (recreationally, or getting "needs" met), confers advantages on everyone who behaves that way. I checked, but did not see the word hedonist in my post, I think both terri and gnome object to putting words in someone elses mouth...I agree with them. So did you just err, thinking I said that, or did you deliberately put a word in my mouth? Anyways, onward.....

reborn...You have stated that "Pre-marital sex" dooms any relationship to failure. I find that to be wrong on so many fronts I will only mention one point. My marriage didn't fail because I had sex with my wife before marriage, my marriage failed because the two of us took each other for granted and went on a long downward spiral because we felt we could do anything and the other would put up with it.

knight....??? Ok, relationships fail for lots of reasons. My suggestion is that they are more likely to fail, if they included pre-marital sex. I am not positive, but I am pretty sure that has been established statistically as well.

reborn....I have had sex with 4 woman since I turned 18, I am 42 years old, not for lack of opportunity, not because I didn't want to but because I respect myself and respect the way I was raised. One woman because I was young, stupid and disrespectful to do it, I still regret that to this day, she deserved better than a horny 18 year old working to get in her pants. One woman I was engaged to for 3 years and truly thought we were together till the end but parental pressure on both our parts destroyed our relationship, her parents hated me and my parents hated her...too much to bear on 2 young people. The 3rd was my wife and she would have been my last for the rest of my life had things worked out differently. The 4th is my dear friend whom I trust and respect and trusts and respects me. We are both single and neither of us wants a relationship at this point, just companionship and tenderness, caring and consideration.

knight...Apparently you were pretty committed to healthy boundaries. But now you aren't. Since you offered yourself example, is ok to comment. Why do you behave that way, why not be able to say to a woman you come to love, I practiced sexual restraint until I met you (the one you marry), instead of having to tell her you bring a history of casual sex to the marriage, as well as leaveing "out there" some woman who is/was your sexual buddy. Behavior has consequences, there are good women, who you might very well find desireable, who won't choose you because of that behavior...that limits your choices to women who also think casual sex is ok, and who may very well also bring a similar history. I would not choose such a woman, not cause of the sex, but because (IMO) she exhibits poor impulse control, and fails to understand the benefits of celibacy outside marriage. I have left relationships where a nice woman eventually offered herself, for those reasons.

reborn...With all that, to assume that I or anyone here is promoting "promiscuity" is just plain disrespectful.


knight...If someone takes the position pre-marital sex is a good idea, they are promoting promiscuity (even if it is serial)..likewise if I suggest pre-marital sex is unwise..I am promoting celibacy, I don't feel disrespected if someone says that. That is what labels are for, to identify things..right?

Actually, I don't remember reading stats for pre-marital intercourse as it relates to the failure of marriages.

There ARE stats out there on living together before marriage - which is a little more involved than just pre-marital sex - and those stats show that more marriages fail when the husband and wife lived together before the marriage for between a year and five years (as I recall).

T

Yep terri, I had that in mind too, the primary "condition" of living together is sexual access. I wonder if for all practical purposes, pre-marital sex is "living together" whether actually occupy the same dwelling or not. The rest of the living together, learning more about each other, sharing living costs, etc. etc. is good, and works toward improving relationships (with anyone), or distanceing oneself. It is a curious thing living together reduces the likelihood of marital success, intuitively, one would think the opposite, as it would for any other (non-sexual) relationship.

Another statistic is the high failure rate of teens, and young 20's, something like 70%. Maturity is the big risk, but wonder why they marry in the first place, bet there is a correlation that those who are sexually active, are more likely to marry... that makes pre-marital sex a risk factor. Be interesting to know of the 30% who make it, if they have a larger number of kids who came from celibate morality. I am familiar with a religious community (for example) that lives self-contained lifestyle, meaning out of the mainstream, own schools, homes, businesses etc. In 25 years, there has never been a case of unwed pregnancy (which suggests the celibacy teachings and supervision work, cause there is no access to birth control), and very few divorces of the kids (they tend to marry young, so beat that statistic too). Is anecdotal, but still very interesting.

Couple things to add...

First, for me, the primary reason I am chosing to stay celibate until marriage this time is because God says so. My decisions on their own frequently aren't very good ones. I believe He knows what he's talking about. I realize people who don't share my beliefs disagree on this.

However, as I stated before, I also know from personal experience that sex nearly always changes and complicates a relationship and can distort your thinking and important decisions.

And second, I am a "failed teen marriage" statistic. Granted, we made it a LOT longer than many teen marriages. I thought we'd beaten the odds, but we DV just shy of our 20th wedding anniversary. I loved my husband dearly, and stuck by him through many things that others wouldn't have (alcohol, porn, verbal abuse, etc.,) because of my strong beliefs in marriage and my commitment to do what I felt was right.

But I lost my virginity to him at 15, six months into our relationship. First, I was just a kid--way too young to do that! But you couldn't tell me anything back then (it's still rather difficult!). But second, the sexual relationship blinded me to his flaws and all I could see was "I want to be with this guy forever". In hindsight, had we waited 'til marriage, it's highly likely we wouldn't have married because we would have grown apart and that would have been that. I wouldn't have felt this huge tie to him that I did because we were intimate.

Just some personal stats for you...

LL, your story is a common one. Young women are especially vulnerable this way. For them sex = love and marital committment, is how they are wired. For young men it is more often just sexual conquest (how they are wired) until they have been taught more about healthy relationships and not ok to use women this way. The young men with more of a conscience and socialization often do marry the girl, but because the marriage was on a sexual foundation, usually fails. This is what I mean about principles and consequences. If you seek a healthy marriage, do not have pre-marital sex, it clouds your judgement. If the opposite, contributed to making a wise choice (the testdrive therory), then those who choose pre-marital sex should have better marriages.

Now we know there is not only a psychological basis, but may be a physical one too. There has been some research come out last few years that sperm alters a females brain chemistry, makes her identify closer with a specific male. The findings are not from human studies, but the researchers are pretty sure we experience that same phenomena...and there is interesting supporting evidence too for that, one being women in sexual relationships can identify their partner by smell.

Frankly I have never really understood why a woman has casual or non-committed sex, most often it seems to be about getting the guy "hooked...that means trying to use sex to get a committment, which supports the principle sex does mean something....and is why males should not let themself be seduced. Or they have emotional issues and there self-esteem is low, and they seek sex to feel wanted/desireable and such....which again leads to emotional entaglement, and if marry, is more likely to fail because again, the foundation is about sex, rather than compatibility, maturity, etc. And of course there are promiscuous women, which suggests something about their psychological health, just not nearly as common as promiscuous males. The middle ground seems to be populated by women who seek committment, are not promiscuous, just exercise bad judgenment and have sex because they "think" the guy is truthful and loves them (usually they are wrong). There are male counterparts for all these women. Males who think sex means the woman loves them, so try to hook her fast as possible, or have their own esteem issues and look to sexual conquest to bolster it, or are promiscuous. The point being pre-marital sex seems to have no benefits in securing a good marriage... but a plethora of downside (and we haven't even mentioned std's, pregnancy yet), so why do it? Puzzles me.

... i'm with greycloud,,, and i never had to or 'asked' for sex in my entire life... (imo) as far as M success... simple... falling in love and staying in love is pretty much the main factor... sure, there are many more factors, but without the big L...

... and rbm... i read your stuff all the time... you rock!

My first marriage should have been successful, fulfilling, wonderful, perfect, worked etc.
No sex before our marriage. Waited til both completed college. Married at 22 and 23. Both were employed. Same small town background, religion, interests, educational levels, intelligence levels, values regarding money, possessions, etc, didn't drink, didn't smoke,similar ways to approach problem solving, similar viewpoints on having and raising children...and on and on......Looked good on paper to me! "Should" have lived happily ever after. Didn't.

As far as asking for sex is concerned, I don't.

I wait until the woman can barely control herself and she makes it clear that she wants it. They'll do all sorts of interesting things such as mention that she recently had a physical and everything was OK including the std test, poke, hit, grab and otherwise initiate physical contact as often as possible, or say something implying sex without actually asking for it "Can I see the comforter on your bed again?".

Knight,

Since it makes zero difference what anyone says to you I will just wish you well.

I hope you can find someone that will tolerate the grandiloquent manner in which you speak and carry yourself.

It won't be easy but drive on "Christian" Soldier.

RebornMan

Not sure what the point of this post is, but if it's to say that people have different ideas about what it means to have a relationship and what that relationship should or should not include, who could disagree?

I personally would not date and/or engage in whatever sex might be doable with anyone from another planet including New Jersey. Just not my style. Go ahead - criticize me for being so narrow minded. Those are my principles and I'm sticking to 'em.

WAT