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Hi, FAR.
For now, remove all the points where you are trying to teach her.
Do state the facts such as "It appears that you are living a single's lifestyle within our marriage. I find this unacceptable."
Also, counseling while she is still in the affair is very likely a waste of money. It is a good idea for you to go for yourself, however.
Also, don't waste your time telling her what you have done for her. She doesn't care, and you may have to undo some of what you have done for her, especially if it facilitates her behavior. Also, you should recognize that a lot of what we do for others, we are actually doing for ourselves.
Since this is her second affair, there is a possibility that you can't meet her needs, and even if you do, she may continue on the path she has chosen. Usually when someone cheats serially, there is an underlying issue that has to be dealt before any real marital progress can be made.
God bless,
Gimble
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.
-An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
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Foundareason- Sorry I didn't check in on you today- got hit with the nesting urge and was cleaning. I am willing to bet that your insomnia is indeed worse than mine. (((HUGS))) Funny you bring up Subway- hubby told me yesterday that they open at 9:30 am here in our twon-- he works there as a relief manager as a part time job to build our nest egg. He's an active duty Navy cop otherwise. I love Subway. YOu asked if I'd feel better if I *knew* for sure. Yes. Because I have this aching feeling sometimes that I'm being treated like I'm either stupid or really niave to beleive that two adults in the back of a car didn't have sex at least once. And the only thing that made me hesitate in believing they had was his OW's nasty remark and the fact she claimed he used a condom. I've been with my husband since I was 13, been together off and on for 21 years, married for 12.5 years...and not once, even when he discussed his lovers before we were tagether did he ever use condoms. I know its twisted that it hangs on that fact (and rpetty sad that I dont believe he'd use one to protect me), but its a nagging fact. I don't think you need pictures, FAR, but Im willing to bet sitting there with the OMW and watching the two of them arrive together and enter their room would be enough to satisfy that need. It would be enough for me. I agree with WAT and Gimble- stop the lovey-dovey stuff (I made myself do that, too, and it was terribly hard as Im extremely affectionate) and also wait to do anything until after you have your counseling session. I also agree with removing the "I have done this for you" portions of your letter. Whether you mean it that way or not, it comes off sort of whiney. I can say this because I made the mistake of pulling that, too, except I did it face to face. It was later when I owned up to the fact I CHOSE to do that and I can't use it as a justification for my spouse to stay with me. Now Im just embarrassed I said it. There were other reasons for him to stay with me- mainly that I freakin' rock <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> --and I didn't need to resort to that. Hubby was a serial cheater, but the final crisis made me really look at what I wanted. He admitted that all those other times he stayed it was because of the kids. The reason he came back from one of our seperations was also because of the kids. This time, I made sure it was because it was ME he wanted-- Im no longer last on the totem pole. I deserve a spouse who is here because of me-- and my kids deserved a father who loved and appreciated his wife. FAR, do not sell yourself short and use the kids as the only excuse to stay. You deserve more than that.
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I really love this woman. She is awesome. She is very intelligent (except for the last year and a half or two). She is a tremendously loving woman. She is a great mom.
She is acidic to me right now, and that hurts. I am thinking of getting a tatoo of a heart with a knive through it, and her angelic name across the top. (baptist boy here, don't smoke, 4 beers a month is a heavy drinking month for me...)
Mojo - I sure appreciate your comments on the thread.
Well - it is almost 11:30 here - and I have to get up at 4:30 to chat with Steve at 5AM.
Tomorrow could be a biggie......
foundareason
D: March 2006 (xw - multiple a's)
I have found a NEW REASON!!!!
A Treasure!!
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Oh - and thanks for the advice on the letter. I will edit it accordingly.
Good stuff you guys bring.
foundareason
D: March 2006 (xw - multiple a's)
I have found a NEW REASON!!!!
A Treasure!!
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I'd like to suggest a completely different letter - more along thew lines of a Plan A letter, which is pretty much the same as a Plan B letter but without the "going dark" punch line.
I'll post a sample later when I get the time to find it. In the meantime, I hope you ask Steve about this and I also look forward to your report on your session with him.
WAT
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Found - I think your letter will "alienate" her even more. (Pun intended.) It's filled with disrespectful judgements and demands. You may not see them and they may be completely justified, but they are not very Plan A-like. Here is an alternative style - A Plan A love letter modeled after the Plan B letter in SAA and others posted on the forum over the last several years. I don't claim it to be perfect - and a similar one obviously didn't succeed in saving my marriage. But please give this style some consideration. Dear <Wife>,
As I’ve said before, I still love you and want a chance to repair our relationship. I am painfully aware that I was not meeting your needs as a husband and I apologize for my part in creating an environment that helped make your relationship with <OM> possible.
I have grown tremendously from this experience and I ask you to open your mind and see the changes for yourself. <Son> and I are closer than ever and I acknowledge that I did not always show him the respect he deserved. He has told me he loves me more than ever before. I have looked at myself from your perspective and have recognized that my emotional outbursts of the past were judgmental, insensitive, and counterproductive. I have a new appreciation for your need to be able to freely express yourself without hesitation. You can feel safe voicing your anger and concerns. Whatever happens to us, these changes are permanent in me and I am a better person because of them. I am soon starting with a therapist to explore other aspects I can work on. I feel much better about myself as a person and as an individual, I am strong and well along in my recovery.
During this experience my efforts have been on changing me, not on blaming anyone else expecting them to change. I am the only person I can change. I know I have other improvements to make - and you can help me. Similarly, we can help each other. In short, I will avoid the mistakes I’ve made in the past and we can create a new life for the three of us that will meet all of our needs. It won’t happen overnight and it’ll take a lot of work, but we owe it to <son> to try hard to make it work. Choosing not to try leaves the problems unsolved and creates more difficult ones.
<Son> and I are two men who together want to help you become happy for the rest of your life. We are a permanent reality, here for the long haul, and we have a lot of good memories for the foundation of a family. Similarly, you can make the two of us very, very happy. We want you and need you. I will support any need you have in a non-judgmental way when or if you decide to devout yourself to our family. You can come to me in safety, knowing I will embrace you. Even if you’re not sure, I will understand and provide empathy.
Whenever you are ready to talk, I’ll be ready to listen. I loved you when I married you and I love you to this day. I am willing to do whatever it takes to put our family back together. I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage so that we meet each other’s emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We can build a new relationship in which everything we do makes all three of us happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate.
I am here for you and I love you,
<Me> Hope this helps. WAT
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FAR- thought about you before I finally fell asleep and then immediately this morning. I hope your session with Harley helped you make a couple decisions and get your focus on what needs to be done. I can tell you love this woman- its very easy to see. Just be very cautious not to love her more than you love yourself. I know that sounds terribly selfish, but I realized I stayed for so long with hubby was due to caring more about him than my own welfare. Does that make sense? I was willing to swallow a whole lot of pain and humilitation just to keep him in my life. During our last crisis, in 2003, I learned a lot about myself when I 'ran away' for a bit and attended my University alone, leaving him overseas with the kids (they wanted to stay put and I needed to get away, though I didnt admit it then). Lived in a dorm room and everthing. He pulled his last stunt and I still managed to get straight As... and realized I really could be by myself because I actually liked the woman I was becoming. I went home of course to reconcile and help my kids heal (and they have, thankfully), but it was a big awakening for both me and hubby. I didn't 'need' him and both of us knew it. We're together now because we BOTH want it equally. And imagine my surprise when almost a year from my running away my husband did a complete 180* and asked to have another child. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I should mention that our two children are now 17 (son we had at 16 in 1988) and 11 (daughter, born during one of his affairs). They are both old enough to understand what's going on, and honestly, if they had not told me they preferred their family stay together- a massive admission from my son, who is the one who caught my husband in the act in 2003-- I would not be here. How old are your kids? My family has healed a lot, but it took work. I can say Im proud of the changes that both of us made, but most of all that my husband finally started to protect our marriage. He worked hard and regained his son's respect, which I think surprised our son. My husband went to counseling with me, checks in, no longer freaks out if I get anxious and snoop a bit (happens less and less now), and makes sure everyone knows that we come first. Its all new to me and sometimes I do not know how to handle it. But I like it! I do! I'm just saying this so that when you have a 'hopeless' moment, you know it can be done if you and your wife want it. I'm behind you whatever you decide.
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Mojo - WAT - wow what a busy day.
I got up, drove a block away, had an hour with steve, and got home before anyone awoke. No one knows I was gone!
Steve agrees with Dr. H. If I expose, in my case, she has been emotionally divorced for so long that it will just push her away. He wants me to talk to her, let her know that I know, and find a way to get her and him and I on the phone together. He feels OMW might not care if he is in an A.
I have to study my lines, and bone up. I got coverage for the kids and we are going out to dinner to talk. I will talk to her first, and see if she will commit to at least talking to Steve.
I think all of the advice I have gotten here is very good, sound advice. I want to follow it, but I have two Harleys telling me the same thing, and I am going to do what Steve tells me for now. He did not say do not expose, just talk to my WW first (expose to her, I guess - it is still exposure), and find out if there is any way to get her to believe that our relationship can happen again.
WAT - I like the letter you sent.
THANK YOU FOR THE ADVICE ABOUT ALIENATION. Please do not let me do anything stupid. You are looking out for me, and I appreciate it.
I am going to tell her tonite that I know something is going on because:
1. I feel the same way I felt the first time
2. she has been emailing a LOT more lately
3. she guards her cellphone and checks it often
4. I can not find any evidence of the show in LA she is going to this weekend
5. she has been looking hot and seeming hot lately - but not to me
6. she has many new clothes
7. she has all new underwear
8. She only confirmed one person for sure who is going to LA with her
That should convince her I know something, without disclosing that I am reading her email. I can finger who, what and where from all of that.
She called and told me she is getting very anxious about our meeting tonite. I did not respond to that.
OH - she called and told me she knows she has been being mean to me and needs to explain why. Also earlier she texted me: "I love you."
Well - pray. It is almost time.
Thanks, mojo. I am going to print your note, because I think it will speak to her.
foundareason
D: March 2006 (xw - multiple a's)
I have found a NEW REASON!!!!
A Treasure!!
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Well, Im up late counting and timing contractions again. I believe they are Braxton Hicks (practice) contractions, so Im using them for practicing keeping track of the real thing. Today (Tuesday) I hit 38 weeks and have just 13 days until the due date. I can hear hubby snoring in the bedroom across the way- my computer is now in the baby's nursery. I even have digital cable in here! Hubby and I have started to hang out in here and we talk a lot. Its nice and cozy.
I am hoping that you haven't checked in because you are busy talking with your WW. I'm hoping she will wake up and start protecting the wonderful, caring, and loving man she has at home. So many BW's here would kill to have a husband so in love with his wife. I know I would have.
Please don't allow her treatment of you or her personal choices to skew your own vision of yourself. I used to think I was worthless because I wasn't the pretty, athletic wife he wanted. And I treated myself that way- making my situation worse. Thank goodness my husband is helping me with my self image... I do not think I could be where am I now emotionally without his support. It would have taken me much longer to understand he doesn't define my worth. I do.
Well, its been four hours of irregular contractions... yay me. hah.
(((FAR))) I hope you are ok.
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Miss Diva - Hi. I remember Braxton Hicks.
Deep, cleansing breath, lady. Hold it - ok slowly let it out....
there you go.
I got up at 4:30am and talked to Steve and was back before anybody knew I was gone.
He, like Dr. Bill, sensed that WW is already emotionally gone, and that full exposure would not do much good except to make her mad and drive her away. Something about long-term emotional divorce.
So I took her on a drive tonite and spoke rationally to her. First I asked her if she though that the ideal thing for kids would be for their parents to be in love. "Yes." I then told her I knew something was going on. I cited all the things on my list. She DENIED DENIED DENIED. "HOW COULD YOU COOK UP SUCH A THING. HE IS A MARRIED MAN, AND HE IS OLD!!! DO I NOT CARE ABOUT HER FEELINGS! OH SURE, NOW I AM GONNA FIGHT LIKE A MAN, BUT NOT WHEN SHE WAS CRYING FOR HELP!! I AM HIDING BEHIND THE KIDS, NOW!" She is livid. I am never to touch her, yada yada yada. I have her under my thumb. She is bent about me trying to MAKE her fall in love with me. She does not like to be MADE to do anything.
Oh my gosh!! She read the stinking script!!
I do not know what to do next. But I stood my ground, did not reveal my source, and let her stew.
The fantasy is about to start melting. She is livid - I am never to touch her, yada yada yada.
Sure could use another ten minutes with Steve.
We got home - she did not eat with me. (we had gone to pick up burritos) Then she started drinking. I offered to go get her some wine. "No."
So 7 and coke it is. She slammed it.
I stuck with tea. Lots of sugar.
Thanks for your prayers and support, all.
What next?
foundareason
D: March 2006 (xw - multiple a's)
I have found a NEW REASON!!!!
A Treasure!!
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You may not have read my thread, but you and I seem to be in the same boat, but I'm ahead of you. I was able to convince WW to speak with Steve, but she was totally defensive and evasive. If Steve tells you to watch out, watch out. My WW was like a wounded cornered animal. NOT PRETTY. She did some incredibly unexpected things.
Some of her words. "I will not be controlled by you". "I would rather kill myself than be married to you." "You can have everything, just let me go!"
Expect the unexpected is all I can say.
What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
Me 41
WS 39
DS 19, DS 9
DDay 2/25/05
Divorcing....
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When I brought up the kids tonite, she mentioned seriously finding ways to commit suicide. When I promptly pointed out that suicide would not help the kids, she backed off. I reminded her of our pinkie promise - no suicide.
She said it was just an example of how strongly she feels.
What do I do?
foundareason
D: March 2006 (xw - multiple a's)
I have found a NEW REASON!!!!
A Treasure!!
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You may not have read my thread, but you and I seem to be in the same boat, but I'm ahead of you. I was able to convince WW to speak with Steve, but she was totally defensive and evasive. If Steve tells you to watch out, watch out. My WW was like a wounded cornered animal. NOT PRETTY. She did some incredibly unexpected things.
Some of her words. "I will not be controlled by you". "I would rather kill myself than be married to you." "You can have everything, just let me go!"
Expect the unexpected is all I can say. And, yes, I have heard all of those.
foundareason
D: March 2006 (xw - multiple a's)
I have found a NEW REASON!!!!
A Treasure!!
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Hi, found.
Did Steve prepare you for her reaction?
As for what you can do. Don't be desperate, clingy, needy or grabby. Don't try to fix her. Don't try to make it better. Don't back down from letting her know that you know she is involved. If she hits you, call the police.
As Sleepless told you, expect the unexpected. Protect your children from her. She is subject to doing anything right now, ESPECIALLY the very thing that you think she would never do.
Try to eat and sleep.
Be even and speak honestly and openly with her. Don't reveal your sources to her. After she calms down. Ask her what her intentions are regarding her family. Listen to everything she says, but take nothing to heart. Protect whatever she threatens.
Be attentive but distant. Learn that it is okay for you to want her, but you must completely remove any 'need' for her from you. The fact is, you don't need this woman. You might want her, but she is not a necessity for your survival. That 'need' may cost you your family. This will make sense to you later on.
Strive to be the man she thought she married, but don't tell her what that is, show her. Let most of the words you speak to her be spoken as actions, not out loud. No doting.
Take care of your children. They need a hero. That is you. Your wayward wife is only concerned with herself right now. That means that you must be the sane adult in your relationship.
God bless,
Gimble
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.
-An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
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I feel like exposure to OMW would just piss her off right now and distance her. I asked SH "what if she does go on this trip with him saturday"?
He said send a card to the room, that says "please come home to your husband"
foundareason
D: March 2006 (xw - multiple a's)
I have found a NEW REASON!!!!
A Treasure!!
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What is doting? If I rub her feet, is that? She is in there coughing - if I make my special whiskey apple cider, is that?
foundareason
D: March 2006 (xw - multiple a's)
I have found a NEW REASON!!!!
A Treasure!!
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yes, far, You are in plan A, right? Make that hot toddy, and send a note to come home if Mr. Harley tells you so. Pray for those who persecute you. Feed your enemy. In this, you heap coals of fire upon their heads. Bless those who curse you. And by the way, be there for your precious children. Find out those EN's of your spouse and MEET them. Tthis is what Mr. Harley, IMVHO, is saying. I know this is hard. And I want you to know you are WORTHY. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Love in Christ, Miss M
me: FBS
H: FWS
Fully recovered
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Yep, her reaction was pure WS textbook. I hope we prepared you well enough to expect that. Take some comfort in that she followed it so well. She's "normal". Did Steve ofer suggestions on whether to show some evidence after such a denial? Seems that's the logical next step to me at some point. Of course, if you show evidence, that confirms you've been into her e-mail, and she'll turn THAT into a federal case for invading her privacy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> You cannot do anything that will not piss her off further. More normalcy. Remember, to an active WS, the best defense is a strong offense > deflect any criticism back onto the BS. But if you don't show some evidence, she just continues to deny and is STILL mad at you. So what is your plan if further exposure is off the table? Did you plan a followup with Steve? WAT
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Textbook. Chaper three of the WS Handbook. The title of that chapter? "Oh crap...I'm caught."
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Miss M - Mortar - thanks!
I am gonna sit on it right now. I have not yet planned a followup with Steve.
I am considering my options.
I know the affair will eventually burn out. I am listening very carefully to those named H, and they both are concerned that I draw her back. That I not open the chasm any further.
It could be that my giving her some space to spin for a while might be the best way to do that (gulp). I might just let her stew for a while. She knows she is trapped. She has not yet suspected that I am monitoring her comm. I also photo-ed the cell bill this morning. I might just continue to gather intel for a while and let her concience eat her. Then be there for her when it finally falls apart. Having had nothing to do with it falling apart in my case might be what I need to draw her closer. And God told me another year, which would be around April of next year. I could just plan A and have fun with the kids and let her feel like [censored] until it crumbles, and hold her when it does.
I feel like time is my ally right now. And I hold the aces. She has nothing but a fantasy. It will eventually crumble. I will get the Dads getting custody stuff. And document.
Thanks, guys. I REALLY appreciate your support.
I respect you guys tremendously.
FAR
foundareason
D: March 2006 (xw - multiple a's)
I have found a NEW REASON!!!!
A Treasure!!
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